What can you do to stop racism?

[kimmy]

I continue to laugh at those who can't see themselves in a flood of privileges.

Well, as I keep saying, I'm eager to understand. So it's extremely frustrating for me that when I ask what these privileges are I get such lame responses.

Peggy McIntosh says there's an "invisible knapsack" full of passports, secret codes, and blank cheques, apparently. The University of North Carolina brochure you linked me to sure doesn't describe anything like that. It describes things like "I can turn on the TV and see people of my race" or "I can go to the record store and find the music of my race" or "I can go to the grocery store and find the foods I grew up with".

Perhaps Peggy has an excuse, because her paper was written over 20 years ago. But clearly the folks at UNC who wrote the brochure haven't been to a record store or turned on the TV or been to a grocery store for a long time.

The rest? Largely predicated on the notion that being able to associate with people of your own racial group is inherently valuable, a premise I wouldn't think the PC brigade would be entirely thrilled about.

How many people here have a mortgage or have recently bought a new car? How were you treated by the bank? Did they give you the money you asked for?

Five years ago they wouldn't lent me a dime if I'd asked, but now my bank is now very interested in finding ways to lend me money. Why the change in attitude? Did I get whiter? No, it's a result of several years of steady employment, a spotless credit history, and some substantial assets. People of all ethnicities (including off-reserve natives...) are able to obtain mortgages and loans in exactly the same way, so as an example of "white privilege" this is an epic failure.

First Nations don't have that luxury. Banks will not lend FN money for a mortgage to build on reserve because under the Indian Act the banks (or anyone else) are prohibited from taking land, or owning land, or leasing land on a reserve. So simply because of the colour of their skin native people are forced to make a decision to either move off the reserve blah blah blah blah

Perhaps you've identified a problem with the Indian Act, but since people of all races can easily obtain loans and mortgages, it's certainly not an example of "white privilege".

I know a guy who is in retail who is told to watch out for any people of colour coming into their store because "those people" are responsible for all the shoplifting. By default when a person of colour comes into that particular store, they are followed and shadowed constantly. Yet when I or my friends walk into any store, we are politely asked if we need assistance and then left on our own to browse freely. That is our privilege.

Wow, you met a bigot. BFD.

Yet when I or my friends walk into any store, we are politely asked if we need assistance and then left on our own to browse freely. That is our privilege.

When I walk into any store, I'm spoken to as if I were gullible and uninformed. And often with the assumption that a boyfriend or husband will be back with me at a later date to make the decisions.

I'm not going to get in to all the examples of white privilege because there are too many to fully explain.

Why don't you humor us? Just a couple.

And just because some minorities may share in the benefits of those privileges doesn't mean that it isn't racist or exclusively our privilege. Rather some people have learned to adapt and to ignore the rules of our white male dominated society preferring to go with the flow for the time being.

Perhaps you could elaborate on this. Are you going to talk about "selling out"?

However, we are seeing diversified influences in government starting to take effect as predominantly white males are dislodged from management positions and people are beginning to change the criteria (to the chagrin of many whom have complained here) for hiring and for equal treatment. We notice the change not because it gives minorities an upper hand but because it erodes our exclusive controls over the environment and the people who operate it.

Perhaps the headway non-white people are making in achieving high positions is due in some measure to the increasing number of qualified non-white candidates rather than strictly a result of affirmative action.

Just remember that the next time you face a store clerk, a government worker, a banker or a corporate manager and they have the same colour of skin as you do. You don't need to know or have it explained to you that there is an automatic connection that gives you favour. It is unspoken and assumed but just as real as the nose on your face.

So... the store clerk might smile extra when she hands me my change? My banker is (east) Indian, so I can only wonder. My last face to face encounter with government workers was when I got "the treatment" by the goons working security at Lester B Pearson, and I actually kind of suspect I was made an example of to show the other travelers that whitey is not above suspicion.

There are a large number of nonverbal cues that factor into peoples' interaction with strangers. Perceived economic status, perceived class, dress, haircut, attractiveness, physical stature, weight, posture, bearing, manner of eye contact, use of personal space, grooming, visible tattoos, visible scars, blemishes or skin condition, imperfections, apparent age, and yes, race.

The crusaders for social justice fixate on race as by far the most significant or even the only factor, as if race alone determined the outcome of social interaction. In reality it's one factor among scores.

People make assumptions about me based on my appearance. Unless you're invisible, they make assumptions about you too.

-k

[Sir Bandelot]

Metis are not First Nation. There is a distinction, girl . Maybe you should go study that too.

I must apologize for my miss-identification of you. I should have said "little girl". My bad.....

Now he's sexist too. What a piece of work you are. And as usual, the most sanctimonius holier than thous are the ones who stink the most. You have crapped in your own bed. Time to go clean up.

[charter.rights]

The Canadian Armed Forces disagree, I self-identified and they accepted that just fine. And I already have told you about my Metis ancestor, LOUIS FREAKING RIEL. Of course this is true for at least a hundred people (the family on my mother side is pretty large)

I do look white but I have nothing to prove to you. I have the right to claim my Metis and First Nations heritage by virtue of being Metis and First Nations. You on the other hand have no right to tell me who I am.

Au contraire, ma petite fille. J'ai le droit de vous dire qui vous êtes, tout autant que le gouvernement a le droit de vous exclure de Métis et les Premières nations.

The military wouldn't care about who you call yourself, Rex. They are just looking for dogs to suck their bones. On the other hand the government and legal beagles do care because your misidentification and your poor behaviour is a detriment to your mutt ancestry and that reflects badly on Canadians in general. Perhaps you just dreamed that you had an Mohawk Princess auntie or that you mistook that the counselor really said you ancestors accused and hung Louis Reil? Who knows. You only have your word (and of course you could always prove it by a Wikipedia reference) and that is not worth much in law or in trying to be something you are not.

[CANADIEN]

The Canadian Armed Forces disagree, I self-identified and they accepted that just fine. And I already have told you about my Metis ancestor, LOUIS FREAKING RIEL. Of course this is true for at least a hundred people (the family on my mother side is pretty large)

I do look white but I have nothing to prove to you. I have the right to claim my Metis and First Nations heritage by virtue of being Metis and First Nations. You on the other hand have no right to tell me who I am.

Are you seriously denying the Riel's were Metis? Seriously?

If the idiot (also known as Charter Rights) was arguing it takes more than genealogy to identify oneself as a member of a particular ethnic/national group or culture, I would agree with him. The issue is - its smakcs of hypocrisy (and stupidity) for him to use the government definitions that HE otherwise rejects to decide who is a Metis and who isn't. You consider yourself to be a Metis - that makes you a Metis.

[charter.rights]

If the idiot (also known as Charter Rights) was arguing it takes more than genealogy to identify oneself as a member of a particular ethnic/national group or culture, I would agree with him. The issue is - its smakcs of hypocrisy (and stupidity) for him to use the government definitions that HE otherwise rejects to decide who is a Metis and who isn't. You consider yourself to be a Metis - that makes you a Metis.

I guess an illustration of that hypocrisy in white privilege is lost on you too?

Native people are asked to prove themselves everyday to government, to retail, to anyone who doubts that they have rights that exceed ours. Of course when was the last time you were asked to prove that you were a Canadien within Canada?

Accordingly, TrueMetis may not call herself Metis in any shape or form. It is a misrepresentation and a misidentification that neither the Metis Nation or the Government would accept. So mutt is the best that WE can use to describe her. There is no other legal or official qualification.

However, she could call herself a Martian, or a Sumsqat from Ititierland, if she wants. There is no copyright on those forms of self-identifications. However, the Supreme Court and the Government, Metis Nations and First Nations do own the copyright on Metis and Indian and unless you fit their definitions you cannot call yourself either.

Misidentification creates the basis for most racism in Canada, and is the result of white privilege. (Who do you think came up with the definitions?) That was the point. Too bad your resentment and indignation got in the way of a good illustration.

Edited November 13, 2010 by charter.rights

[Guest TrueMetis]

Au contraire, ma petite fille. J'ai le droit de vous dire qui vous êtes, tout autant que le gouvernement a le droit de vous exclure de Métis et les Premières nations.

Someone feel like translating? Never had any french classes. My elementary school never taught french and I never did any in high school.

The military wouldn't care about who you call yourself, Rex. They are just looking for dogs to suck their bones. On the other hand the government and legal beagles do care because your misidentification and your poor behaviour is a detriment to your mutt ancestry and that reflects badly on Canadians in general.

The Military is just the most recent time, I've filled out plenty of other forms and no one ever cared there either.

Perhaps you just dreamed that you had an Mohawk Princess auntie or that you mistook that the counselor really said you ancestors accused and hung Louis Reil? Who knows. You only have your word (and of course you could always prove it by a Wikipedia reference) and that is not worth much in law or in trying to be something you are not.

Well shit that explains the dozens of native events I went to when in elementary school. Or the Metis thing I was offered when I graduated high school. (Can't remember what it was as I didn't accept it)

ETA: Google to the rescue it was a sash. I'm still trying to figure out why the wanted to give me something for completing high school, you know other than my diploma.

Accordingly, TrueMetis may not call herself Metis in any shape or form. It is a misrepresentation and a misidentification that neither the Metis Nation or the Government would accept. So mutt is the best that WE can use to describe her. There is no other legal or official qualification.

Okay it clearly says male under my name so I'm forced to assume you are acting like a four year old of purpose.

Edited November 13, 2010 by TrueMetis

[CANADIEN]

Someone feel like translating? Never had any french classes. My elementary school never taught french and I never did any in high school.

You're a girl and the idiot has the right to say you are not a Metis, and so do the Government and the Metis nation.

[CANADIEN]

Okay it clearly says male under my name so I'm forced to assume you are acting like a four year old of purpose.

That statement of yours isan insult to four year olds.

[charter.rights]

Okay it clearly says male under my name so I'm forced to assume you are acting like a four year old of purpose.

Given that you have misidentified yourself on this forum, I figured it was just another of your disguises....petite garcon...

[Guest TrueMetis]

You're a girl and the idiot has the right to say you are not a Metis, and so do the Government and the Metis nation.

Even though the Metis Nation only exists because of my great great great great uncle. I love it.

[CANADIEN]

Even though the Metis Nation only exists because of my great great great great uncle. I love it.

Mind you, he HAS the right to say you're not a Metis - he has the legal right to make a fool of himself anyway he wants.

[charter.rights]

Even though the Metis Nation only exists because of my great great great great uncle. I love it.

Shows how little you know. You can't even misappropriate a culture with any conviction, can you...?

Gabriel Dumont

And there were many more that were instrumental in creating a Metis cultural and political identity.

Your ignorance is telling of a sleeping Canadian.

[charter.rights]

Mind you, he HAS the right to say you're not a Metis - he has the legal right to make a fool of himself anyway he wants.

See. Again you are out of intelligent contributions and as usual you fall back on your ad hominem to get you through. Man a guy who doesn't know his roots and one that is trying to steal his. You two should get a room somewhere.....

[Guest TrueMetis]

Shows how little you know. You can't even misappropriate a culture with any conviction, can you...?

Gabriel Dumont

And there were many more that were instrumental in creating a Metis cultural and political identity.

Your ignorance is telling of a sleeping Canadian.

I never said there wasn't, but without Riel there would be no Manitoba. The implications of such a thing should be obvious even to you.

[charter.rights]

I never said there wasn't, but without Riel there would be no Manitoba. The implications of such a thing should be obvious even to you.

You mean "without Riel there would be no Manitoba". Had the Canadian government not hung him, Manitoba would be its own Metis Nation. Like I said, you are a poor thief.

[CANADIEN]

It is very Ironic. I'm not Metis and First Nations because I'm not the the Governments definition of it. even though in practice the government doesn't even care, in the few forms I've filled out that ask for it it's entirely self declared. All you have to do is say you are and they accept it. Not that it ever seems to change anything.

What the idiot fails to see is that being able to prove that Louis Riel is your ancestor would get you a Metis status card no problem. That you haven't sought the official (government) recognition doesn't not make you less of a Metis.

Should have done my research better. The Federal Government does not issue Metis status cards. National and provincial metis organizations issue Metis i.d. cards though.

Edited November 13, 2010 by CANADIEN

[Guest TrueMetis]

You mean "without Riel there would be no Manitoba". Had the Canadian government not hung him, Manitoba would be its own Metis Nation. Like I said, you are a poor thief.

If you think that the Canadian (Or U.S.) Governments would have allowed that you are truly nuts.

[CANADIEN]

I should have resisted the temptation to read your posts. But then, I would have missed this true gem

Well no, again. the definition of "First Nation" didn't exist back then. And the concept of "metis" (little 'm') didn't exist either at least until after the unions and children were born to mixed parentage. So all you are doing is trying to make a ghost and implying it is real and has substance.

The First nations are called the First Nations because they were the first (or more exactly, the first among those now here). Duh. That they didn't refer themselves as such 10000 years ago, 5000 years ago or the day before the first Vikings showed up does not change that fact. The claim of the First nations today is based on the fact that they descend of the first (or the longest) occupants of the land.

And you wonder why, with one or two exceptions, everyone here thinks you're an idiot.

[CANADIEN]

If you think that the Canadian (Or U.S.) Governments would have allowed that you are truly nuts.

Never mind that the Northwest rebellion took place in Saskatchewan 15 years AFTER the creation of Manitoba as a Canadian Province. And he claims he can teach history now...

[Guest TrueMetis]

Never mind that the Northwest rebellion took place in Saskatchewan 15 years AFTER the creation of Manitoba as a Canadian Province. And he claims he can teach history now...

How did I miss that?

[CANADIEN]

So that 17th century chinks means you are not pur laine, either.

Any French-speaking Canadian, or descendants of the settlers of New France, who search his/her ancestors back to New France in the 17th-early 18th century has about a 90% chance of finding a First Nation, Italian, Portuguese, German, Swiss or even (oh the horror ) New Englander ancestor living at that time in New France.

Only the racist or the idiot will have a problem with that.

[charter.rights]

I should have resisted the temptation to read your posts. But then, I would have missed this true gem

The First nations are called the First Nations because they were the first (or more exactly, the first among those now here). Duh. That they didn't refer themselves as such 10000 years ago, 5000 years ago or the day before the first Vikings showed up does not change that fact. The claim of the First nations today is based on the fact that they descend of the first (or the longest) occupants of the land.

And you wonder why, with one or two exceptions, everyone here thinks you're an idiot.

You're the idiot. First Nations is a modern term that didn't exist back then. They referred to themselves as Anishnabe, or Onkwe'hon:we meaning human beings. In fact the word Iroquois comes from the English bastardization of I:i ron'kwe meaing I am a man.

A one wonders how you ever made it out of grade 8.

Edited November 13, 2010 by charter.rights

[Jack Weber]

"Metis are not First Nation. There is a distinction, girl . Maybe you should go study that too."

Well TM, there's an answer for you! I guess you're not "pur laine" enough!

If that's not a racist attitude I don't know what is. Just another example of how the disease does not exclusively strike white folks.

I've no doubt that you and I could get along, despite my being white! I would cheerfully buy you a beer any day. However, it might be a good idea not to include CR. I'm convinced he would immediately start a violent protest over his rights to the entire brewery!

We could give him the current Lakeport Brewery operation on Burlington Street???

[Shwa]

Well, as I keep saying, I'm eager to understand. So it's extremely frustrating for me that when I ask what these privileges are I get such lame responses.

Peggy McIntosh says there's an "invisible knapsack" full of passports, secret codes, and blank cheques, apparently. The University of North Carolina brochure you linked me to sure doesn't describe anything like that. It describes things like "I can turn on the TV and see people of my race" or "I can go to the record store and find the music of my race" or "I can go to the grocery store and find the foods I grew up with".

Perhaps Peggy has an excuse, because her paper was written over 20 years ago. But clearly the folks at UNC who wrote the brochure haven't been to a record store or turned on the TV or been to a grocery store for a long time.

The rest? Largely predicated on the notion that being able to associate with people of your own racial group is inherently valuable, a premise I wouldn't think the PC brigade would be entirely thrilled about.

Five years ago they wouldn't lent me a dime if I'd asked, but now my bank is now very interested in finding ways to lend me money. Why the change in attitude? Did I get whiter? No, it's a result of several years of steady employment, a spotless credit history, and some substantial assets. People of all ethnicities (including off-reserve natives...) are able to obtain mortgages and loans in exactly the same way, so as an example of "white privilege" this is an epic failure.

Perhaps you've identified a problem with the Indian Act, but since people of all races can easily obtain loans and mortgages, it's certainly not an example of "white privilege".

Wow, you met a bigot. BFD.

When I walk into any store, I'm spoken to as if I were gullible and uninformed. And often with the assumption that a boyfriend or husband will be back with me at a later date to make the decisions.

Why don't you humor us? Just a couple.

Perhaps you could elaborate on this. Are you going to talk about "selling out"?

Perhaps the headway non-white people are making in achieving high positions is due in some measure to the increasing number of qualified non-white candidates rather than strictly a result of affirmative action.

So... the store clerk might smile extra when she hands me my change? My banker is (east) Indian, so I can only wonder. My last face to face encounter with government workers was when I got "the treatment" by the goons working security at Lester B Pearson, and I actually kind of suspect I was made an example of to show the other travelers that whitey is not above suspicion.

There are a large number of nonverbal cues that factor into peoples' interaction with strangers. Perceived economic status, perceived class, dress, haircut, attractiveness, physical stature, weight, posture, bearing, manner of eye contact, use of personal space, grooming, visible tattoos, visible scars, blemishes or skin condition, imperfections, apparent age, and yes, race.

The crusaders for social justice fixate on race as by far the most significant or even the only factor, as if race alone determined the outcome of social interaction. In reality it's one factor among scores.

People make assumptions about me based on my appearance. Unless you're invisible, they make assumptions about you too.

-k

So is this all to say that belonging to the dominent culture group comes with no benefits to you whatsoever?

[kimmy]

So is this all to say that belonging to the dominent culture group comes with no benefits to you whatsoever?

Perhaps it does. Let's talk about that.

I'm just trying to have a conversation here, Shwa. The claim was made, and endorsed by c-r, that to fight racism we must "acknowledge white privilege". "Most of us are aware of how racism hurts others, but we're not aware of how it benefits us," said the website. Ok, so let's become aware. Let's look at examples and discuss them. Let's open up that "invisible knapsack" and see what's inside.

I'm not content to accept "white privilege" without defining the term first and having some concrete examples of what it actually entails. If I'm supposed to feel guilty, I want to know what it is I'm guilty of. I'm sure, for example, that neither c-r nor the folks at Racism Free Edmonton believe that I can end racism by refusing to buy "flesh tone" band-aids, for example. (If it was that easy, I'd certainly do it. I mean, I might as well buy the bright purple colored band-aids anyway, they match my skin about as well.) I'm sure they mean more than that, and I'd like to know what they're actually talking about and what I can do about it.

Talking in vague terms like "acknowledge white privilege" doesn't accomplish anything except make people angry. This campaign is a perfect example of how such language is counter productive: they've removed that claim from the website and acknowledged that "it should have been phrased more effectively".

I don't think any amount of rephrasing is going to help them unless they're prepared to discuss what they mean in concrete terms.

-k