Glenn Beck VS Alex Jones

[GostHacked]

I'm not sure why it's a loss for me. I don't listen to Alex Jones (whoever the hell he is) and I don't watch or listen much to Glenn Beck either. However, I did notice one glaring inaccuracy from the video you provided. Glenn Beck blames Republicans almost as much as he does Democrats. He insists there's barely much difference between the two parties. So in that sense, the person in your video doesn't really know what he's talking about. Other than that, I couldn't really care less about either of them.

That's the big sham though Shady. There really is no left/right. Both are parts of the same problem. When it comes down to it, both parties are very similar. We are only fooling ourselves in thinking there is a difference between Reps and Dems. They want you to believe in a 'right' and 'left'. This causes us to battle with each other instead of trying to correct the corrupted system.

[Pliny]

Left wing adgenda?

Lets see... So far hes transfered hundreds of billions from taxpayers into the pockets of wealthy corporations. Instead of implementing Universal Healthcare he wrote a massive corporate welfare bill that forces people to patronize private health insurers. And hes ratcheted up the spending on a war that has gone nowhere for eight years, and tried to start a war with Pakistan. And lets not forget hes extended the practice of torture, kept the patriot act.

Nothing about his adgenda is left wing at all. Hes just another in a long line of corporate shills in the US government.

Seems to be looking more and more like a right wing "socialist" agenda doesn't it? :lol:

I have had the argument before that fascism has it's roots in leftist socialism. It is only when leftist socialists start to notice leaders in government getting a bit intrusive and starting to act independently of the people, be they left or right that they distance themselves by calling it right wing socialism. Like Stalin, and the Communists and the Socialists of Germany and Italy did to Hitler and Mussolini.

[Pliny]

That's the big sham though Shady. There really is no left/right. Both are parts of the same problem. When it comes down to it, both parties are very similar. We are only fooling ourselves in thinking there is a difference between Reps and Dems. They want you to believe in a 'right' and 'left'. This causes us to battle with each other instead of trying to correct the corrupted system.

Hence, the tea party, who are ousting both RINO and Democrat incumbents equally. Some Republicans, like Ron Paul, are safe because he has always voted against big government.

[Pliny]

the neocons have stolen the tea party movement. fox has been a major tool for this theft.

What's your idea of a neocon?

Just so we are on the same page here's a working definition:

Neoconservatism

[Pliny]

Think passed governments, money, all of it.

This planet is full of resources, many are scarce. That being said, the proper management and utilization of these resources is the most important thing we can do. How well we relate to our surrounding is what will determine if we survive.

We moved past steam and coal into fossil fuels and we will move past fossil fuels into something else. If we don't we die. That's the simplicity. Stopping or slowing down development and production will ensure that end. All the carbon taxes, Kyoto agreements and redistribution of wealth will do is retard our ability to develop technologically. It is because riding a bike is more progressive than riding an automobile that we will die. Riding a bike isn't progress it is regressive. Certainly all that is seen is that less fossil fuels are used and less CO2 is released into the atmosphere when we ride a bike but is that the solution we should embrace. If we do it stifles our necessity to develop technologically and is a more sure road to poverty and starvation because it is an enforced preservation of old or unworkable technologies.

Governments role is that they are so heavily invested in oil, receiving huge revenues from fossil fuels that they would need to replace those revenues before we switch to some other form of energy. Government is acting as a brake on progress.

Poverty, disease, pollutions, these problems are true problems. How do I know, because they are problems common to all of us. We should be using what resources we have to try and solve these problems.

I don't mean just the physical resources but our mental resources as well.

Well, get government to take off the brakes.

I get that if we had completely automated farms so humans would never have to work to get food besides maintaining these machines or implementing advancements in technology, that would eliminate jobs. Hell, the economy would collapse, although it already is collapsing.

Look at what we would gain, we would be ending starvation and come closer to solving poverty.

That is social prosperity.

You won't end it that way.

I'm taking economics and political science. haven't decided my major yet.

well, make sure you have an economic understanding of the history of politics. Governments have a tendency to want to control economies and generally wind up destroying them. I believe you see the cracks in ours already.

[maple_leafs182]

Well, get government to take off the brakes.

I think it is more then governments that are holding us back, I think it is the monetary based economy that is holding us back. Democracies, communism, national socialism, they are all bound to fail because they all operate with a monetary based economy.

You won't end it that way.

Why not?

well, make sure you have an economic understanding of the history of politics. Governments have a tendency to want to control economies and generally wind up destroying them. I believe you see the cracks in ours already.

Our economic/monetary systems are deeply flawed, paper can't be money, it always ends up being abused. I posted on this forum when silver was 16.50 an ounce saying to buy it, it is now up to I think 23.50 an ounce and it will continue to go up as long as governments continue to debase the currencies.

This system isn't fair to the people who worked hard and have their savings in dollars, the purchasing power of those dollars is falling, all of them/us are being robbed of our wealth. The current monetary system is insane, it is the largest unquestioned systems of faith we have, it is more dangerous then any religion or terrorist group.

I hate the entire concept of money but if we are going to use it at least lets have currencies backed by gold or silver, something that banks and governments can't just print or digitally create.

[Pliny]

Our economic/monetary systems are deeply flawed, paper can't be money, it always ends up being abused. I posted on this forum when silver was 16.50 an ounce saying to buy it, it is now up to I think 23.50 an ounce and it will continue to go up as long as governments continue to debase the currencies.

This system isn't fair to the people who worked hard and have their savings in dollars, the purchasing power of those dollars is falling, all of them/us are being robbed of our wealth. The current monetary system is insane, it is the largest unquestioned systems of faith we have, it is more dangerous then any religion or terrorist group.

I hate the entire concept of money but if we are going to use it at least lets have currencies backed by gold or silver, something that banks and governments can't just print or digitally create.

I agree with this but you haven't finished your economic indoctrination yet. It is not the view of mainstream economists at all. Keynesian economic theory is what is promoted. It is funny that in the first German publication of Keynes's general theory in the thirties Keynes wrote it was more suited to a socialist or authoritarian form of government. The foreward didn't appear in the English publication.

Probably just a marketing ploy but whether it was or not it is true. As he dealt with the aggregate economy and how banking and government fiscal and monetary policy could be used to direct a national economy.

The Austrian theory of Economics is not based in banking policies or practices but in individual action and the voluntary co-operative effort of all participants in creating an economy. It condemns the manipulation of the economy through things like inflation, the debasement of money to a fiat currency, artificial interest rates and the illegitimate creation of "wealth" through bank practices such as fractional reserve lending.

[maple_leafs182]

I agree with this but you haven't finished your economic indoctrination yet. It is not the view of mainstream economists at all. Keynesian economic theory is what is promoted. It is funny that in the first German publication of Keynes's general theory in the thirties Keynes wrote it was more suited to a socialist or authoritarian form of government. The foreward didn't appear in the English publication.

Probably just a marketing ploy but whether it was or not it is true. As he dealt with the aggregate economy and how banking and government fiscal and monetary policy could be used to direct a national economy.

The Austrian theory of Economics is not based in banking policies or practices but in individual action and the voluntary co-operative effort of all participants in creating an economy. It condemns the manipulation of the economy through things like inflation, the debasement of money to a fiat currency, artificial interest rates and the illegitimate creation of "wealth" through bank practices such as fractional reserve lending.

Ron Paul, who I believe is one of the most honest politicians out there, he uses the Austrian theory. He predicted the economic collapse while running for GOP nominee, he still lost. Crazy world we live in.

I'm in microeconomics right now, it is more supply and demand, macro is next term. I too like the Austrian theory more, I haven't studied it in depth but I do think we should get rid of the Bank of Canada and stop the manipulation of the economy.

More importantly...

Look at the monetary based economy. You can argue it creates incentive and I'll agree it does, look at what else it creates; corruption, inequities across the board, poverty, pollution, war, it is an extremely unstable system especially with the use of fiat currencies.

We need to create a system that isn't held back by the current monetary system.

We can't have automated farms or automated whatever factories because it would cut jobs hurting the economy.

We stifle creativity through patent laws, I do understand they are necessary or favorable to the economy, either way, some peoples creativity is limited by laws.

We continue to use items that burn fossil fuels even though we have technology that would end our dependence on fossil fuels simply because it is cheaper or more profitable not to do so.

We need to start to work together, get rid of private ownership, start using/sharing our resources while using the scientific method for the betterment of all man and not just certain groups such as corporations.

[Pliny]

Ron Paul, who I believe is one of the most honest politicians out there, he uses the Austrian theory. He predicted the economic collapse while running for GOP nominee, he still lost. Crazy world we live in.

I'm in microeconomics right now, it is more supply and demand, macro is next term. I too like the Austrian theory more, I haven't studied it in depth but I do think we should get rid of the Bank of Canada and stop the manipulation of the economy.

More importantly...

Look at the monetary based economy. You can argue it creates incentive and I'll agree it does, look at what else it creates; corruption, inequities across the board, poverty, pollution, war, it is an extremely unstable system especially with the use of fiat currencies.

We need to create a system that isn't held back by the current monetary system.

We can't have automated farms or automated whatever factories because it would cut jobs hurting the economy.

We stifle creativity through patent laws, I do understand they are necessary or favorable to the economy, either way, some peoples creativity is limited by laws.

We continue to use items that burn fossil fuels even though we have technology that would end our dependence on fossil fuels simply because it is cheaper or more profitable not to do so.

We need to start to work together, get rid of private ownership, start using/sharing our resources while using the scientific method for the betterment of all man and not just certain groups such as corporations.

Everything in your post makes sense except your last paragraph.

The sanctity of person and property is the cornerstone of liberty. The concept of Private property is the singular concept that allows for the creation of prosperity. Where private property is not held to be sacred there is no will or incentive to work - someone legally or illegally will take property from you. One's property is an extension of himself. Now you may think that the rich may need to be relieved of some of their property but if you don't guarantee him his property then no one will be guaranteed their property, and what meagre earnings or ownings the poor may have been able to scrape together or accumulate will be open to confiscation legally or illegally. Private property rights must be protected.

The current monetary system, merely a system of accounting not anything to do with money per it's full definition, contributes to inequities, corruption, the welfare/warfare state.

I don't know how it creates incentive other than incentive to buy now before the currency loses all value - inflation is just another way of stealing value from the populace, it is a hidden tax.

[maple_leafs182]

The current monetary system, merely a system of accounting not anything to do with money per it's full definition, contributes to inequities, corruption, the welfare/warfare state.

I don't think going back to a gold standard will actually solve the problem. There is no guarantee the system won't corrupt itself again like it has so many times in the past. I believe with a monetary based economy, corruption is just a matter of time.

I don't know how it creates incentive other than incentive to buy now before the currency loses all value - inflation is just another way of stealing value from the populace, it is a hidden tax.

Inflation is a direct transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

All of us are being robbed in front of our eyes and nobody seems to notice, nobody seems or care.

The sanctity of person and property is the cornerstone of liberty. The concept of Private property is the singular concept that allows for the creation of prosperity. Where private property is not held to be sacred there is no will or incentive to work - someone legally or illegally will take property from you. One's property is an extension of himself. Now you may think that the rich may need to be relieved of some of their property but if you don't guarantee him his property then no one will be guaranteed their property, and what meagre earnings or ownings the poor may have been able to scrape together or accumulate will be open to confiscation legally or illegally. Private property rights must be protected.

'

K, your right, private property right must be protected but only to a certain extent

I think all the resources of the planet; iron, oil, gold, etc, they are a common heritage to all of us. No private corporations should be allowed to control the management of these resource. That being said I don't think the government should control them either. The people should control the resources. We should manage them in a way that is sustainable to the environment and in a way that will create a sustainable society.

Inventing new technologies, advancing sciences, just helping out would benefit you and all of society, that would be the incentive.

I don't think this system works very well. I'm pretty sure we are on the verge of a global depression that will devastate hundreds of millions of lives world wide. It all seems kind of stupid to me, a completely unnecessary and avoidable event.

[Michael Hardner]

I think all the resources of the planet; iron, oil, gold, etc, they are a common heritage to all of us. No private corporations should be allowed to control the management of these resource. That being said I don't think the government should control them either. The people should control the resources. We should manage them in a way that is sustainable to the environment and in a way that will create a sustainable society.

If this is what you believe, then you should stay far apart from Libertarian candidates who would gleefully return us to the days of the industrial revolution, when property and wealth accumulated - free of government interference such as non-competition rules, safety regulations and what have you.

[Pliny]

If this is what you believe, then you should stay far apart from Libertarian candidates who would gleefully return us to the days of the industrial revolution, when property and wealth accumulated - free of government interference such as non-competition rules, safety regulations and what have you.

What happened Michael was that government made rules that killed competition.

Things like licences and permits priced much of the competition out of the market. Just like Wal-mart does today. They don't pay anybody the minimum wage. They pay above the minimum wage. It doesn't affect them one wit when government raises the minimum wage. Instead Wal-mart welcomes and encourages governments to do so because some businesses that do pay minimum wages won't be able to afford it and in order for all companies to pay their employees more they have to raise their prices making Wal-mart look like more of a bargain. Some of it's competition will close their doors - raising minimum wages does two negative things - creates unemployment for the marginally skilled and the young and raises prices.

What happened in the 19th century was government started making regulations that eliminated a lot of competition. Rockefeller was quite shrewd in that he tried to eliminate competition, by lobbying government to regulate his industries and buying up those that couldn't meet the government requirements. Remember his great statement, "Competition is the greatest sin." He worked hard on it but had help from the government. He didn't do it alone.

[Pliny]

I don't think going back to a gold standard will actually solve the problem. There is no guarantee the system won't corrupt itself again like it has so many times in the past. I believe with a monetary based economy, corruption is just a matter of time.

The understanding that governments can't takeover and start to devalue the money, whatever it's form and which is generally evolved naturally by the people, must be ingrained in the minds of the public.

The disadvantages of having honest money are mostly government concerns about lack of control.

Inflation is a direct transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

All of us are being robbed in front of our eyes and nobody seems to notice, nobody seems or care.

Well, some of us notice.

'

K, your right, private property right must be protected but only to a certain extent

Where should we draw the line? The problem is that someone usually wants to draw the line somewhere.

If one man isn't safe from the whim of others then we all aren't.

I think all the resources of the planet; iron, oil, gold, etc, they are a common heritage to all of us. No private corporations should be allowed to control the management of these resource. That being said I don't think the government should control them either. The people should control the resources. We should manage them in a way that is sustainable to the environment and in a way that will create a sustainable society.

Who are the people? Who is going to make the decisions? Are they all going to be made by majority vote?

It would have to be globally and it is statistically and logisitically impossible. Sounds all nice and airy-fairy but is not workable. The miner that digs the ore out should own it or at least pay the landowner a royalty for the privilege.

I believe that the provinces own all mines and minerals and I think the US is the only nation where individuals can own the mineral rights to their land.

Do you think the people of Canada, being a democracy, own their mineral rights? We benefit indirectly I guess. The government gets revenues from them to pay for services.

Inventing new technologies, advancing sciences, just helping out would benefit you and all of society, that would be the incentive.

Right. What's the incentive to take out the garbage? Just helping out benefiting you and all of society.

I don't think this system works very well. I'm pretty sure we are on the verge of a global depression that will devastate hundreds of millions of lives world wide. It all seems kind of stupid to me, a completely unnecessary and avoidable event.

It works not too bad we just have to get government a little bit smaller and a little less intrusive.

[dre]

I think it is more then governments that are holding us back, I think it is the monetary based economy that is holding us back. Democracies, communism, national socialism, they are all bound to fail because they all operate with a monetary based economy.

Why not?

Our economic/monetary systems are deeply flawed, paper can't be money, it always ends up being abused. I posted on this forum when silver was 16.50 an ounce saying to buy it, it is now up to I think 23.50 an ounce and it will continue to go up as long as governments continue to debase the currencies.

This system isn't fair to the people who worked hard and have their savings in dollars, the purchasing power of those dollars is falling, all of them/us are being robbed of our wealth. The current monetary system is insane, it is the largest unquestioned systems of faith we have, it is more dangerous then any religion or terrorist group.

I hate the entire concept of money but if we are going to use it at least lets have currencies backed by gold or silver, something that banks and governments can't just print or digitally create.

This system isn't fair to the people who worked hard and have their savings in dollars, the purchasing power of those dollars is falling, all of them/us are being robbed of our wealth.

Well those people need to adapt and get smart. You should not use US dollars or any other currency as a vehicle to store wealth. Currency is a transactional medium... you should only have as much as you need to complete the transactions you need to make during a given ammount of time.

Its not like inflation is anything new... this has been going on for a hundred years so youd think people would learn.

[Michael Hardner]

Right. What's the incentive to take out the garbage? Just helping out benefiting you and all of society.

Just jumping in - I guess the incentive is saving hundreds of dollars per year in having somebody else do it.

[Oleg Bach]

Never quite got the Alex Jones thing..I used to listen to him years ago on short wave- He actually used to encourage arming yourself and over running the American government - YET - they allowed him to operate and become rich? He is just part of the same parasitic machine that the Vatican - Moore - Gore - Clinton and the rest of those cut throat opportunists belong too. Everybody wants to be famous and everybody wants to terrify the public into blind submission as they go through their pockets and prosper.

[bloodyminded]

The Tea party movement is a grassroots movement.

They're not a grassroots movement. They are a movement of a wing of the Republican party, and they have both massive wealthy interests involved, as well as statist politicians. I'm surprised people argue otherwise; I suppose they see what they want to see, even when it's not there.

[GostHacked]

They're not a grassroots movement. They are a movement of a wing of the Republican party, and they have both massive wealthy interests involved, as well as statist politicians. I'm surprised people argue otherwise; I suppose they see what they want to see, even when it's not there.

I will always be skeptical of any 'grassroots' movement in this day and age.

[Pliny]

They're not a grassroots movement. They are a movement of a wing of the Republican party, and they have both massive wealthy interests involved, as well as statist politicians. I'm surprised people argue otherwise; I suppose they see what they want to see, even when it's not there.

And what wing of the Republican party would that be? Certainly, not the wing that replaced Republican Mike Castle with O'Donnell or the wing that elected Joe Miller and ousted incumbent Republican Murkowski.

Would it be the wing that has more non-politicians running for office than ever have? The one that rebukes the career politician; Democrat or Republican?

I don't see that massive wealthy interests and statist politicians are motivating TEA party members. Some of those types might be getting on board but they better be ready to see things a little differently than business as usual in Washington.

The charge has been made that there is little difference between the two parties. I think the TEA party is insisting there be a difference. Because Democrats are the main target of the TEA party doesn't mean the Republican party can continue on it's merry way.

I suppose you see what you want to see.

[Pliny]

Well those people need to adapt and get smart. You should not use US dollars or any other currency as a vehicle to store wealth. Currency is a transactional medium... you should only have as much as you need to complete the transactions you need to make during a given ammount of time.

Its not like inflation is anything new... this has been going on for a hundred years so youd think people would learn.

Yes. You would think people would learn. As we have been arguing, not many people understand the negative aspects of inflation. Some measure of liquidity should be maintained though and fewer people over time are saving money, most are accruing debt which is perhaps the wiser thing to do.

One of the properties of sound money, and the reason the preferred medium for transactions evolves to be used as a medium of exchange is that it is a store of wealth. You are correct it is foolish to use a fiat currency as a vehicle to store wealth. A fiat currency is not money.

[maple_leafs182]

The understanding that governments can't takeover and start to devalue the money, whatever it's form and which is generally evolved naturally by the people, must be ingrained in the minds of the public.

The disadvantages of having honest money are mostly government concerns about lack of control.

It isn't just the government, private banks cause inflation and deflation threw the practice of fractional reserve banking.

Well, some of us notice.

Not nearly enough.

Where should we draw the line? The problem is that someone usually wants to draw the line somewhere.

If one man isn't safe from the whim of others then we all aren't.

Lets draw the line at resources. They belong to all of us, they should never be privately controlled.

Who are the people? Who is going to make the decisions? Are they all going to be made by majority vote? It would have to be globally and it is statistically and logisitically impossible. Sounds all nice and airy-fairy but is not workable. The miner that digs the ore out should own it or at least pay the landowner a royalty for the privilege.

We are the people.

I think decisions should be made at the local level.

For example, I live in Winnipeg, there happens to be an abundance of electricity in manitoba. Why not use that to our advantage.

Winnipeg should develep a transit sestem that runs off electricity.

We should use the sientific method to try and figure out the best possible approach in doing this. All the architects, engineers, physicists, whoever wishes, they could come together and develop a transit system that is green, efficent, it should use the latest technology and be within our resource limit.

Im sure there will be debate and opposition and we will be left with a few possible approaches, that is when we exercise our right to vote.

It wouldn't have to be globally. Lets start here in Canada, if other nations wish to immitate us that is there choice.

Right. What's the incentive to take out the garbage? Just helping out benefiting you and all of society.

What creates the garbage?

We should be developing products that are completely recyclable. Lets eliminate garbage at the source so we don't have to take out the garbage.

It works not too bad we just have to get government a little bit smaller and a little less intrusive.

Not too bad is still bad.

[maple_leafs182]

Well those people need to adapt and get smart. You should not use US dollars or any other currency as a vehicle to store wealth. Currency is a transactional medium... you should only have as much as you need to complete the transactions you need to make during a given ammount of time.

Its not like inflation is anything new... this has been going on for a hundred years so youd think people would learn.

It still shouldn't be allowed to go on. It hurts too many people.

The people who wish to save up dollars for a house shouldn't be penalized.

They're not a grassroots movement. They are a movement of a wing of the Republican party, and they have both massive wealthy interests involved, as well as statist politicians. I'm surprised people argue otherwise; I suppose they see what they want to see, even when it's not there.

They are grassroots. I have been following the movements before they were called the tea parties. However, there are certain special interest groups that are attempting to control the movement.

[bloodyminded]

And what wing of the Republican party would that be? Certainly, not the wing that replaced Republican Mike Castle with O'Donnell or the wing that elected Joe Miller and ousted incumbent Republican Murkowski.

Would it be the wing that has more non-politicians running for office than ever have? The one that rebukes the career politician; Democrat or Republican?

I don't see that massive wealthy interests and statist politicians are motivating TEA party members. Some of those types might be getting on board but they better be ready to see things a little differently than business as usual in Washington.

The charge has been made that there is little difference between the two parties. I think the TEA party is insisting there be a difference. Because Democrats are the main target of the TEA party doesn't mean the Republican party can continue on it's merry way.

Oh, sure it does. As far as they have ever been some independent movement--which isn't really the case, at least not since they picked up steam (because they picked up steam only with the help of powerful financiers and Conservative statists) they have been co-opted. They are not distinct from the Republican Party. And that party, powerfully successful, politically shrewd, and astoundingly wealthy--now owns them.

You think some middle-class whiners, who despise "socialism" while demanding they keep their medical benefits ( Too funny, yes?) are going to enact a sea-change in one of the great political success stories in the modern era?

Palin is one of their heroes. That alone tells you that government statism is intrinsically involved. The new candidates are a minor shake-up, and will have no serious and lasting effects on policies. Especially since, in power, they'll do as their told.

You are aware (or are you? Maybe you closed your ears?) that, for example, Rand Paul has changed many of his ideas literally 180 degrees, in total alliance with Republican Party mandates?

Edited October 13, 2010 by bloodyminded

[maple_leafs182]

Oh, sure it does. As far as they have ever been some independent movement--which isn't really the case, at least not since they picked up steam (because they picked up steam only with the help of powerful financiers and Conservative statists) they have been co-opted. They are not distinct from the Republican Party. And that party, powerfully successful, politically shrewd, and astoundingly wealthy--now owns them.

You think some middle-class whiners, who despise "socialism" while demanding they keep their medical benefits ( Too funny, yes?) are going to enact a sea-change in one of the great political success stories in the modern era?

Palin is one of their heroes. That alone tells you that government statism is intrinsically involved. The new candidates are a minor shake-up, and will have no serious and lasting effects on policies. Especially since, in power, they'll do as their told.

You are aware (or are you? Maybe you closed your ears?) that, for example, Rand Paul has changed many of his ideas literally 180 degrees, in total alliance with Republican Party mandates?

Stop watching main stream media.

Ron Paul is the spiritual godfather or the movement. Not Sarah Palin, not Rand Paul. This will become more evident the closer we come to the next presidential election.

Ron Paul may be a republican but he is more of a traditional republican, he has ran for president as a libertarian in the past.

[bloodyminded]

Stop watching main stream media.

Ron Paul is the spiritual godfather or the movement. Not Sarah Palin, not Rand Paul. This will become more evident the closer we come to the next presidential election.

Ron Paul may be a republican but he is more of a traditional republican, he has ran for president as a libertarian in the past.

Actually, I did read (in a Matt Taibbi article from Rolling Stone which I linked to on another thread) that "tea party" was being used in its present incarnation around Ron Paul and his supporters, not too long ago.

But while I'm not a big fan of Ron Paul, I certainly wouldn't blame him for the Republican Party strategy machine that the new "tea party" has become. And the tea party followers don't mention his name--they like Sarah Palin, O'Donnell, and other fine geniuses, which tells us something.