When People Hear, See & Watch Themselves

[August1991]

I don't know where else to start this thread, so I have chosen the "Moral & Ethical Issues" category.

From what I know, mirrors were the most valuable items Europeans first brought to America. Until mirrors, Americans could only see themselves reflected in water.

The first mirrors using silver date from a few centuries before Christ, in Lebanon. I have a suspicion that silver, at first, was more valuable than gold because of its reflective value. No doubt that the initial value of such polished metals lay in their ability to reflect an image. I have spent time in pre-Christian funeral temples in Syria. The family of the dead person obviously spent time on their portrayal, as if it were an image in a mirror.

Imagine the world of 20,000 years ago where you could not see yourself - except in a pool of water.

Nowadays, we take all of this for granted. We look at ourselves constantly, women far more than men. Why do women spend more time in front of a mirror than men? And why do women spend more time in the washroom than men? (Why are buildings designed with the same space for women's and men's washrooms - when women obviously take more time in front of a mirror... )

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In this 21st century world, we have youtube videos of ourselves. But this is recent. Abraham Lincoln was the first US president to have a photograph. Hollywood stars used this reflection to become famous. Nowadays, 150 years after Lincoln, we can see ourselves in HD with surroundsound.

To see ourselves as others see us, changes our perspective of ourselves. It is the first time in history when it has been so easy. We are like dogs barking at ourselves, or cats raising their fur or jumping in fright from an image of themselves.

I think that we all remember the first time that we heard our recorded voice. "Do I really sound like that?" Or see ourselves on a video. "Do I really walk like that?" "Is that me?"

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The ability to see ourselves changes our behaviour, and changes how we raise our children. Is it any wonder that people use cosmetics and cosmetic surgery? At the same time, I suspect that this will just as quickly change once we understand that we can all see ourselves.

It is remarkable to see oneself in high definition on a large screen with surroundsound. Is that me? Is that how others see me?

Edited October 5, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

It is remarkable to see oneself in high definition on a large screen with surroundsound. Is that me? Is that how others see me?

Sure, at first, then you get used to it, just like anything else. Is it odd to have all the world's information at one's fingertips, accessible within seconds? Is it odd to be able to instantly talk to anyone, anywhere else on the planet? Is it odd to be able to travel across the globe in a day? All of these things were odd when they first became possible, but are taken for granted now. As a result of their introduction and adoption, all of these have drastically changed society.

Will it be odd to travel to other planets? Will it be odd to interface your mind directly with a computer? Will it be odd to have your life extended for as long as you want? Sure will be, and then we'll get used to it, and society will have drastically changed once again.

Technological progress is the greatest driver of change in our society, and will continue to be so.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't know where else to start this thread, so I have chosen the "Moral & Ethical Issues" category.

From what I know, mirrors were the most valuable items Europeans first brought to America. Until mirrors, Americans could only see themselves reflected in water....

Mirrors were not the most valuable things brought to the Americas, nor was there a lack of reflective surfaces other than water:

http://journals.lww.com/optvissci/Fulltext/2006/10000/History_of_Mirrors_Dating_Back_8000_Years.17.aspx#P31

[August1991]

Sure, at first, then you get used to it, just like anything else.

Seeing oneself is different. This is not just another technological change.

As I note, women spend more time in washrooms than men. Why?

Mirrors were not the most valuable things brought to the Americas, nor was there a lack of reflective surfaces other than water...

B_C, your link confirms my point. Edited October 5, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

Seeing oneself is different. This is not just another technological change.

I'd say that having all the information in the world instantly accessible is a much more substantial change.

As I note, women spend more time in washrooms than men. Why?

Women spend more time dressing, spend more time putting on makeup, etc, as well. In general, women are more concerned about their appearance. Men less so. From an evolutionary perspective, the appearance of a human female is one of her primary methods of attracting suitable mates. For human males, other factors often play a greater role than their appearance, such as their ability to provide food, shelter, and protection. There is no mystery why women spend more time taking care of and gauging their appearance than men do.

[bush_cheney2004]

...B_C, your link confirms my point.

Some two thousand years ago, people could not easily look at themselves - but they wanted too, women in particular.

You point is moot....people wanted to eat more than they wanted to look at themselves. Dozens of things were more important in this objective than mirrors "from Europe".

Men can look at women without "mirrors".

[August1991]

I'd say that having all the information in the world instantly accessible is a much more substantial change.

I disagree. Seeing/hearing ourselves is the greatest technological change.

People care about themselves far more. Let's be honest. We all want to see ourselves.

Women spend more time dressing, spend more time putting on makeup, etc, as well. In general, women are more concerned about their appearance.

Bonam, that simple observation (about women, if only) should make you think about life.

Bonam, imagine a world without mirrors. Then, imagine a world with HD 5.1 surroundsound home video. We have gone from one world to another in a century or two.

Edited October 5, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

I disagree. Seeing/hearing ourselves is the greatest technological change.

I don't think we're gonna see eye to eye on this.

People care about themselves far more. Let's be honest. We all want to see ourselves.

Caring about one's self and wanting to see one's self are two very different things. I care about myself, thus I do what I can to advance myself, to live life to the fullest, to gain knowledge that is relevant to my goals. My opportunities to do so are vastly enhanced through the ability to access information. In contrast, being able to observe my physical appearance in a mirror does little towards any of these goals.

Bonam, that simple observation (about women, if only) should make you think about life.

Bonam, imagine a world without mirrors. Then, imagine a world with HD 5.1 surroundsound home video. We have gone from one world to another in a century or two.

We've gone from one world to another in the last 30 years. And will go to yet another in the next 30.

[August1991]

I care about myself, thus I do what I can to advance myself, to live life to the fullest, to gain knowledge that is relevant to my goals.

Bonam, I suspect that you say this because you have seen yourself in photos or videos.

You have been able to measure yourself.

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Imagine a world where you could not see yourself, or hear yourself. Imagine a world where there was no mirror. You could not see your nose, ears, eyes.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Imagine a world where you could not see yourself, or hear yourself. Imagine a world where there was no mirror. You could not see your nose, ears, eyes.

Go rent the movie....."The Miracle Worker".

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056241/

[Bonam]

Bonam, I suspect that you say this because you have seen yourself in photos or videos.

You have been able to measure yourself.

So your assertion is that if I was not able to view myself in a mirror, I would not care about advancement, fulfillment, and knowledge? What is your basis for this assertion?

Imagine a world where you could not see yourself, or hear yourself. Imagine a world where there was no mirror. You could not see your nose, ears, eyes.

You can always hear yourself, whenever you speak. Your voice sounds different when recorded and played back, but only because of the physical location of its source. And, as you mentioned, people could always see their own reflections, in water if nothing else. Just how often do you think one needs to see their own reflection in order to do this "self-measurement" that you deem so important?

[August1991]

Go rent the movie....."The Miracle Worker".

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056241/

She was deaf and dumb and blind. B_C, that's not what I meant.

Imagine a world where you can see and hear, but you can't hear and see yourself.

You can always hear yourself, whenever you speak. Your voice sounds different when recorded and played back...

That's my point, Bonam. Your voice sounds different.

Now, do you remember how you looked when you saw yourself on a home video?

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Why do people pay for cosmetic surgery? Are the people stupid, or smart?

What happens when we can see ourselves?

[bush_cheney2004]

She was deaf and dumb and blind. B_C, that's not what I meant.

Imagine a world where you can see and hear, but you can't hear and see yourself.

I know....but it was fun to give you a more extreme reference. People got along just fine without such "technology". Facebook is the latest version of a "mirror".

[guyser]

As I note, women spend more time in washrooms than men. Why?

Well for one obvious reason.

It takes women longer to go to the bathroom. For men its zip down ....go....zip up.

Take an architects course to find out why there are more washrooms for women than men in things such as stadiums etc.

But do women look more in mirrors than men? I would bet it is closer than you think

[August1991]

Sure, at first, then you get used to it, just like anything else. Is it odd to have all the world's information at one's fingertips, accessible within seconds? Is it odd to be able to instantly talk to anyone, anywhere else on the planet? Is it odd to be able to travel across the globe in a day? All of these things were odd when they first became possible, but are taken for granted now. As a result of their introduction and adoption, all of these have drastically changed society.

Bonam, on reflection, I think that you had the best response (and it was also the first reply to the OP).

Is it truly revolutionary to be able to see oneself? I think so.

Apollo 8's first photos taken of the Earth changed our perspective of the world. But only in the minor way it changed our view of our condition.

Individuals are self-centred, and they are obviously more curious about themselves (or things that concern them) than anything else. (I am upset how the English language does not have a subject to mean an individual from a group, but not necessarily oneself. In French, one would say: On est centré sur soi-même.)

People like to see themselves. In this modern world, they can. I think that this has had a tremendous change on the way people behave.

Is it odd to be able to instantly talk to anyone, anywhere else on the planet?

I too once thought that the most important (sought after) innovations concerned connecting people, or making co-operation possible.

This OP was an attempt to wonder about this thought of mine. Now, I suspect that we care more about ourselves - On veut se voir - than we do about talking to others.

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I started this thread in trepidation because it was not clear in my own mind. I added the question: how do you see yourself in home videos? I added the question because I thought that if the OP went nowhere, posters might talk about their view of themselves in video/audio.

Instead, no one said anything about their opinion when they viewed themselves. (IOW, I made the conclusion that this is a very sensitive subject.)

When you look in a mirror, what do you think of yourself?

Edited October 8, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

Bonam, on reflection, I think that you had the best response (and it was also the first reply to the OP).

Is it truly revolutionary to be able to see oneself? I think so.

Apollo 8's first photos taken of the Earth changed our perspective of the world[. But only in the minor way it changed our view of our condition.

Individuals are self-centred, and they are obviously more curious about themselves (or things that concern them) than anything else. (I am upset how the English language does not have a subject to mean an individual from a group, but not necessarily oneself. In French, one would say: On est centré sur soi-même.)

People like to see themselves. In this modern world, they can. I think that this has had a tremendous change on the way people behave.

I too once thought that the most important (sought after) innovations concerned connecting people, or making co-operation possible.

This OP was an attempt to wonder about this thought of mine. Now, I suspect that we care more about ourselves - On veut se voir - than we do about talking to others.

I agree that people care most about themselves and things that concern themselves. But viewing oneself physically is just one small part of looking out for oneself. Providing oneself with food, shelter, clothing, luxury, enjoyment, romantic partners, etc, all occupy considerable portions of the human psyche. Understanding and manipulating the world around us and communicating with other people are even more important towards attaining many of these goals than simply viewing one's own physical appearance.

I started this thread in trepidation because it was not clear in my own mind. I added the question: how do you see yourself in home videos? I added the question because I thought that if the OP went nowhere, posters might talk about their view of themselves in video/audio.

Instead, no one said anything about their opinion when they viewed themselves. (IOW, I made the conclusion that this is a very sensitive subject.)

When you look in a mirror, what do you think of yourself?

Usually when I look in the mirror I think "damn, gotta shave again".