Cell phones in Ontario classrooms

[charter.rights]

A cell phone is primarily a person-to-person communication device and that function has little or no use in a classroom. The Internet access it provides may be useful and this function is the excuse McGuinty used for his photo-op announcement. The benefits of the Internet access are far outweighed by the distractions offered by the prime use, person-to-person communications. If the latter could be disabled, perhaps allowing them in a classroom might be valuable. The major flaw then becomes the 'advantage' a cell phone owner gains over the student who does not own one. It would seem unreasonable to require ownership and the schools certainly cannot afford to supply each student with one.

The OP is not discussing cell phones. The issue is about "smart phones" - small hand-held computers able to access the internet, a myriad of applications and email in the palm of your hand.

I have a Palm Pre and rarely use it for making or receiving phone calls. I would guess that 15% would be used for texting and the rest is for internet stuff, email and applications I have downloaded for productivity.

I agree that disparity would be a problem just as school libraries in rich neighbourhoods are advantaged more than school libraries in rural communities...simply because parents and the rich communities donate more money and volunteer more time. If that disparity can be displaced (such as was done with scientific calculators being provided to everyone in the class) then I am OK with smart phones being used in the classroom.

You know those agendas schools require kids to purchase for $25 or more can easily be replace with a simple appliaction any any smart phone......what a novel ideal....

[GostHacked]

Notwithstanding I was joking...

Are computers in each and every classroom a kid is going to learn in? How about those 'outdoor classrooms?' Why pencils when we have pens? Why teachers when we have parents? All other extra "devices" for learning.

You can restrict content and control a classroom PC quite easily. You cannot do that with the cell phones. Why do you think teachers confiscate them if being used in class? It seems like this is all being rushed in without much thought by the government. They are not looking at the whole picture.

Gawd, you are probably not even 30 and already you are a cranky old man. Get out of the way of progress GH, you might get your toes run over.

Actually I am almost 40. I deal with technology every day for my job and have dealt with technology for the past 10 yeas. We are so dependant on the tech to give us instant answers we no longer have to actually think about things. Those skills will be lost and we have a bunch of dumb kids. Hell you don't even have to aggregate information anymore, computers do that now for us as well. I've lost some troubleshooting skills, because they don't apply anymore. Don't get me wrong I am fascinated with new tech and how it can be applied,

As an example.

My 13 year old cousin got a blackberry recently from her dad. She now spends more time looking at the phone and texting her friends, she does not interact much with me or anyone else as much.

Are we going to own/control the tech, or is it now controlling us and shaping our future? what does that hold? There are unintended social implications that to me are not being accounted for.

Tech is moving very very fast these days, and we really need to take a step back and pull back the reigns on much of this technology. Too much to fast is going to create a culture shock, and transform our society into something we may not want, or never expected.

Do we need more tech or do we need a better education system?

[Shwa]

You can restrict content and control a classroom PC quite easily. You cannot do that with the cell phones. Why do you think teachers confiscate them if being used in class? It seems like this is all being rushed in without much thought by the government. They are not looking at the whole picture.

Oh of course we move away from the actual device and into application and some sort of controls would have to be placed on their use for sure. But that is a technical problem that could likely be easily overcome. Even though the form factor is too small for me to see as useful, they do provide a great concept for convergence including the use of voice. I think there has to be a middle ground between the cell phone and notebook form factor, kind of like the iPad or some other eBook reader or something a little smaller.

Actually I am almost 40. I deal with technology every day for my job and have dealt with technology for the past 10 yeas. We are so dependant on the tech to give us instant answers we no longer have to actually think about things. Those skills will be lost and we have a bunch of dumb kids. Hell you don't even have to aggregate information anymore, computers do that now for us as well.

I find it highly dubious that the "dumb kids" have been producing better, faster, more efficient technology once they grew up all the while becoming dumber because of it. I don't see any backslide going on here with modern technology as far as application goes. More people are learning more things than ever before. Imagine the contents of the Library of Alexandria in the palm of your hand. (if the damned thing hadn't been burned down or ended up in the sea first)

As an example.

My 13 year old cousin got a blackberry recently from her dad. She now spends more time looking at the phone and texting her friends, she does not interact much with me or anyone else as much.

Some people have expressed the same concern with Harry Potter books. Or, a few hundred years ago, with books in general.

Are we going to own/control the tech, or is it now controlling us and shaping our future? what does that hold? There are unintended social implications that to me are not being accounted for.

Ultimately a heaven-hell scenario philosophical question dealt nicely in Joel Garreau's 'Radical Evolution.' He opts for a middle ground, such as we are in now. Or you could go old school and check out Alvin Toffler's 'Future Shock.' Although if you are almost 40, you likely have.

Tech is moving very very fast these days, and we really need to take a step back and pull back the reigns on much of this technology. Too much to fast is going to create a culture shock, and transform our society into something we may not want, or never expected.

Whoops I spoke too soon. But again, this type of controversy isn't new to our civilization and perhaps it is best summed up as 'the medium is the message.'

Do we need more tech or do we need a better education system?

Both.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Shwa

[bjre]

I find it highly dubious that the "dumb kids" have been producing better, faster, more efficient technology once they grew up all the while becoming dumber because of it. I don't see any backslide going on here with modern technology as far as application goes. More people are learning more things than ever before. Imagine the contents of the Library of Alexandria in the palm of your hand. (if the damned thing hadn't been burned down or ended up in the sea first)

More evils will try to change the content and rewrite history in the palm library, like say colonist did not kill 100 millions aboriginals in Americas. And the "dumb kids" will not have any skill or knowledge on how to decide what is true and what is false except what is in the library and what is not there, they will trust those others trust, just like believe heavy things will hit ground faster than light things in Aristotle times, until the world controlled by a super powerful guy who control all the information and make all others slaves...

[Shwa]

More evils will try to change the content and rewrite history in the palm library, like say colonist did not kill 100 millions aboriginals in Americas. And the "dumb kids" will not have any skill or knowledge on how to decide what is true and what is false except what is in the library and what is not there, they will trust those others trust, just like believe heavy things will hit ground faster than light things in Aristotle times, until the world controlled by a super powerful guy who control all the information and make all others slaves...

yeah, that would be a hell scenario and a figment of your imagination at this point. Unless your name is really... Neo? Is that you?

[miyasa]

Here is a better idea the Feds need to let school put up cell phone jammers so phones don't work anywhere in the schools.

Yes, we see eye to eye.Schools should use cell phone jammers.I also suggest that people shoud use the cell phone signal blocker in church, mosque, library, cinema, petrolum station, prison, surgery, car, meeting room, etc.

[GostHacked]

yeah, that would be a hell scenario and a figment of your imagination at this point. Unless your name is really... Neo? Is that you?

You can use China as an example of country wide web monitoring and content filtering. It's not impossible, it could be accomplished very easily. The technology already exists for the ability to revise information and give you the info the educators want you to learn. This is spoon feeding kid information leaving the ability of critical thinking in file 13 (aka garbage)

[Shwa]

You can use China as an example of country wide web monitoring and content filtering. It's not impossible, it could be accomplished very easily. The technology already exists for the ability to revise information and give you the info the educators want you to learn. This is spoon feeding kid information leaving the ability of critical thinking in file 13 (aka garbage)

Really, Ghosthacked, China? Don't you think there would be some siignificant social changes first?

The technology already exists for the ability to revise information and give you the info the educators want you to learn. This is spoon feeding kid information leaving the ability of critical thinking in file 13...

You mean books and TV?

[GostHacked]

Really, Ghosthacked, China? Don't you think there would be some siignificant social changes first?

China does their best to control information going out of the country as well. If there are changes, I seriously doubt that we would know about it. It took China a couple weeks to admit to the severe flooding that took place earlier this year. The great firewall of china works both ways. Info does not come in, and info does not go out. Besides, China's social problems/resolutions are driven by the government. The people have little to no control over it.

It seems to me that most of you who advocate smart phone use in the classroom do not really understand the problems and concerns that come along with all this wonderful new technology.

You mean books and TV?

We already have computers in the schools. Why not use the technology that already exists? I mean you can have a laptop or PC at every desk in every classroom that when tied into the school's network, they can access information and services that only the teacher/school/curriculum demand.

You don't have that luxury with smart phones because they work through the cell networks. Now you might be able to approach a company like RIM or Apple, or Sony ect to make a locked down smart phone and also provide that locked down service through the cell network like Bell or Rogers.

The OP is not discussing cell phones. The issue is about "smart phones" - small hand-held computers able to access the internet, a myriad of applications and email in the palm of your hand.

Cell phones are smart phones these days and vice versa, you will rarely find a cell phone today that is not a smart phone.

[Shwa]

China does their best to control information going out of the country as well. If there are changes, I seriously doubt that we would know about it. It took China a couple weeks to admit to the severe flooding that took place earlier this year. The great firewall of china works both ways. Info does not come in, and info does not go out. Besides, China's social problems/resolutions are driven by the government. The people have little to no control over it.

China's government controls the weather? No, my objection is you using China as a comparative example. I know what you are saying, especially with the evils of modern advertising, but I still think using China as an example is still offside.

It seems to me that most of you who advocate smart phone use in the classroom do not really understand the problems and concerns that come along with all this wonderful new technology.

I perfectly understand the problems and concerns of using this wonderful new technology. I also advocated computers in the classroom when there were fears of students losing their ability to read, write and do math. Do you remember those days? So what are the problems and concerns about using smartphones in the classroom again? Heck, I am thinking in terms of form factor being the delimiter, there are other problems?

OK, T-I-C, the problems and concerns would need solutions, something that the policy makers should be looking at, like acceptable use policies, age appropriateness, etc.

We already have computers in the schools. Why not use the technology that already exists? I mean you can have a laptop or PC at every desk in every classroom that when tied into the school's network, they can access information and services that only the teacher/school/curriculum demand.

Exactly, you illustrated one of the limitations of those devices: "tied-into." I think a smartphone would be much easier to take where there is no tether to the desk. You know, museum visits, school trips, etc. Plus having a mobile camera might also increase the content of an education experience.

You don't have that luxury with smart phones because they work through the cell networks. Now you might be able to approach a company like RIM or Apple, or Sony ect to make a locked down smart phone and also provide that locked down service through the cell network like Bell or Rogers.

AUP's usually take care of that sort of thing, similar to AUP's that kids have to sign nowadays to use the classroon computers. However, another concern might be who pays for it's use as an educational tool and how to we ensure equal access to all students? I would imagine costs would be subsumed under the same guise as paper, pens and scribblers, but ensuring an equal footing for all students is the toughie.

[GostHacked]

China's government controls the weather? No, my objection is you using China as a comparative example. I know what you are saying, especially with the evils of modern advertising, but I still think using China as an example is still offside.

Reading comprehension is key here. I said they can control the flow of information in and out of the country. This is why we did not know about the floods for a couple weeks.

We will need some type of firewall/filter in place on the cell networks to provide a locked down service to the school smart phone to prevent unwanted use of the smartphone.

I perfectly understand the problems and concerns of using this wonderful new technology. I also advocated computers in the classroom when there were fears of students losing their ability to read, write and do math. Do you remember those days? So what are the problems and concerns about using smartphones in the classroom again? Heck, I am thinking in terms of form factor being the delimiter, there are other problems?

The ease in which you can control the device so it works like an educational tool instead of a toy to surf facebook and crap like that. This is the biggest challenge I see with all of this. You can do that easier with a desktop/laptop tied into the schools network where the firewall/filter/proxy server controls the information. It's harder to control if you are going through a cell tower. So the current distractions we currently see with cellphones/smart phones in the classroom is going to be overwhelming if you cannot lock down and control the content.. You'd have to work with a company like Bell or Rogers to get the device/service you want.

Is that even a concern of consideration to those who want to put smart phones in the classroom?

If you just want to slap a smartphone into everyones hands right now without those concerns in mind. Then they are no better off than before when they did not have them.

OK, T-I-C, the problems and concerns would need solutions, something that the policy makers should be looking at, like acceptable use policies, age appropriateness, etc.

Exactly, you illustrated one of the limitations of those devices: "tied-into." I think a smartphone would be much easier to take where there is no tether to the desk. You know, museum visits, school trips, etc. Plus having a mobile camera might also increase the content of an education experience.

Way more red tape and way more complicated than what you need it to be.

AUP's usually take care of that sort of thing, similar to AUP's that kids have to sign nowadays to use the classroon computers. However, another concern might be who pays for it's use as an educational tool and how to we ensure equal access to all students? I would imagine costs would be subsumed under the same guise as paper, pens and scribblers, but ensuring an equal footing for all students is the toughie.

A comparable smart phone is just as expensive as your better than average laptop these days. If we are to put a smart phone in everyones hands, were will that money come from? If the school is taking up the tab, then we will see a good chunk of taxes increased to cover the cost of this. If you leave that up to the parents to buy the 'school approved phone'. How much will it cost, and how many parents will be able to afford it? Let alone the cost to provide a customized service for these locked down smart phones.

Weigh the costs/benefits and you will not want to go with the smartphone.

[Oleg Bach]

As telephone booths were systemically removed and people were FORCED on to cell phones - the price of human communication went up and not down. Cell phones and other devices are now an addiction...We have become like insects that send out scents containing useless information..as we become a more mindless collective..we become more and more enslaved by a few!

When I see a kid who has a 300 dollar a month cell phone bill...I say it would be cheaper to put the jabbering texting little insect on crack!

[Shwa]

Reading comprehension is key here. I said they can control the flow of information in and out of the country. This is why we did not know about the floods for a couple weeks.

We will need some type of firewall/filter in place on the cell networks to provide a locked down service to the school smart phone to prevent unwanted use of the smartphone.

And what would constitute "unwanted use of the smartphone?" Googling about the floods in China, where to buy blackspot sneakers or guerilla art installations in Toronto? I see no reason to lock down anything so long as the proper use protocols are adhered to, as they are with notebooks and desktop computers presently.

The ease in which you can control the device so it works like an educational tool instead of a toy to surf facebook and crap like that. This is the biggest challenge I see with all of this. You can do that easier with a desktop/laptop tied into the schools network where the firewall/filter/proxy server controls the information. It's harder to control if you are going through a cell tower. So the current distractions we currently see with cellphones/smart phones in the classroom is going to be overwhelming if you cannot lock down and control the content.. You'd have to work with a company like Bell or Rogers to get the device/service you want.

I see the biggest challenge to be form factor. I mean, I like the iPhone form, I think it is useful enough, but some of those devices are a titch too small in my opinion. I see no realy reason to lock down anything and besides, Facebook pages can be set up for educational purposes and actually used as a collaborative tool for students of different schools, backgrounds, interests and so on. I prefer to educate the kid, not the phone.

Is that even a concern of consideration to those who want to put smart phones in the classroom?

Absolutely!

If you just want to slap a smartphone into everyones hands right now without those concerns in mind. Then they are no better off than before when they did not have them.

I don't think anyone is saying that. Yet.

Way more red tape and way more complicated than what you need it to be.

Red tape and more complications for an AUP? They already sign AUPs, how is adding a smartphone rider going to be such a burden?

A comparable smart phone is just as expensive as your better than average laptop these days. If we are to put a smart phone in everyones hands, were will that money come from? If the school is taking up the tab, then we will see a good chunk of taxes increased to cover the cost of this. If you leave that up to the parents to buy the 'school approved phone'. How much will it cost, and how many parents will be able to afford it? Let alone the cost to provide a customized service for these locked down smart phones.

That's the rub I think. However, I see smartphones being included in the same costs that parents are already shelling out for books, pens, sports equipment and so on. However, I don't think there needs to be a 'school approved phone' more of 'school approved content.'

That is, you can have the book hand printed by a monk, who spends a year copying a text or you can have one of those new books printed on that new fangled fancy machine called the Gutenberg printing press. As long as they contain the same info, we should be good to go.

Weigh the costs/benefits and you will not want to go with the smartphone.

Like I said, it's the form factor that is a deal breaker for me along with the ability for equal access to all students. If some kid has an iPhone, another has a Blackberry and another has some HTC and they can all access Miss Teach's class Facebook page, I see no problems there so long as it improves their grades or, at least, keeps them even.

But I see them coming to the classroom, no doubt about that.

[GostHacked]

And what would constitute "unwanted use of the smartphone?" Googling about the floods in China, where to buy blackspot sneakers or guerilla art installations in Toronto?

Yes that would be unwanted use of the smartphone. Remember it is supposed to be an educational tool. Why would you be searching for floods or shoes when teacher asked you to learn about Columbus? If you advocate for an open smartphone, then you are going to have to eventually deal with that problem. The end result will be a locked down smartphone, where the teacher has control over the content delivered and accessed by the smartphone.

See where I am going with this here?

I see no reason to lock down anything so long as the proper use protocols are adhered to, as they are with notebooks and desktop computers presently.

Because when you are tied into the schools network, the school network has control over what you can do with the network and the PC. It is a computer pushed policy all other computers adhere to when connected to said network. That is almost going to be impossible with an open smart phone on an open network. You no longer have control over what they use the phone for, regardless of any form they signed for proper computer usage.

That's the rub I think. However, I see smartphones being included in the same costs that parents are already shelling out for books, pens, sports equipment and so on. However, I don't think there needs to be a 'school approved phone' more of 'school approved content.'

You can easily replace a pencil or a pad of paper. Replacing a smartphone is a cost no one wants/needs.

[Shwa]

Yes that would be unwanted use of the smartphone. Remember it is supposed to be an educational tool. Why would you be searching for floods or shoes when teacher asked you to learn about Columbus? If you advocate for an open smartphone, then you are going to have to eventually deal with that problem. The end result will be a locked down smartphone, where the teacher has control over the content delivered and accessed by the smartphone.

See where I am going with this here?

See where I went in the beginning of this thread? Your complaints are similar to the complaints when books first arrived on the scene in the late q5th century and completely changed education altogether. It is interesting that McLuhan - even back in the early 60's - could see how our modern problems and concerns with the new technologies (he was referring primarily to TV) was very similar to the problems and concerns with printed books back in the day.

Because when you are tied into the schools network, the school network has control over what you can do with the network and the PC. It is a computer pushed policy all other computers adhere to when connected to said network. That is almost going to be impossible with an open smart phone on an open network. You no longer have control over what they use the phone for, regardless of any form they signed for proper computer usage.

You are all about control. I can see why you used China as an example since you sound more like a Chinese bureaucrat here.

Then perhaps the problem is not with smartphones, but with your idea of why we need to control so much.

You can easily replace a pencil or a pad of paper. Replacing a smartphone is a cost no one wants/needs.

My wife upgrade her Blackberry three times in the last two years for $0.00 dollars. The devices are actually cheap. It's the service that get's ya.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Shwa

[GostHacked]

Shwa ... why are you even arguing for the use of the phones when you have the same concerns I do about it ..

I was one that that 93% that voted no and only because we cannot guarantee that all kids have an equally similar or useful device. The use of web-enabled cell phones - especially the iPhones type smartphone is a great idea provided it is done in an equal and fair way where everyone benefits. Content restrictions can be blanketed on the use of internal school wifi and leave the emergency voice streams intact.

There was a time when a similar 'controversy' existed over the use of printed books because the scholars back in that day were set on the idea that you could only properly learn and value something if you copied a manuscript word-for-word, character-for-character, icon-for-icon.

Marshall McLuhan made note of this historical period and warned that we would eventually have a similar such period ourselves. His warning was over television. Really, just another information device.

Now had McGuinty said that there would be a move to replace the rip-off industry textbook gravy train with eBook devices, I would have likely voted yes. However, I don't believe the form factor of most cell phones is conducive to being a proper learning or teaching device. But that is my bias since I have to use stupid reading glasses now. Plus I like the feel of a paper book. But I don't expect modern kids - even my own - to simply pick up my bias as some sort of uncontested truth.

Regardless, I hope they will read Marshall McLuhan whether on a smartphone, eBook reader or in cherished paper.

[GostHacked]

I also ask the question : At what grade do you introduce the smartphone and why?

[Shwa]

Shwa ... why are you even arguing for the use of the phones when you have the same concerns I do about it ..

I am arguing FOR the use of smartphones even though I have the same concerns as you do. I think our concerns can be solved within a fairly short timeframe so lets fire up those policy engines. The idea of an AUP that specifies that smartphones must switch over to wifi when in use in the school is just an idea par example. However, content restrictions might not even be required with a responsible parent, student and school.

I also ask the question : At what grade do you introduce the smartphone and why?

Another good question, providing that use of the devices is equitable among students: I am thinking grades four or five, time enough to educate them on their use. Full bore by high school.