The Pulse of the Nation

[Pliny]

Yes, you've offered this hypothesis before. The problem is that, first, you take it as self-evident that the "left wing bias" is so obviously true that you feel no need to look deeply into the matter, much less provide any evidence for your claims; and you take it for granted that your unfailing objectivity proves you couldn't be making the same sort of error you promiscuously attribute to others.

Yes I have offered this hypothesis before. Both you and nicky feel you are centrists. In Canada I wouldn't argue the point. But take a look at the entitlemnts you both feel government sould be providing it's citizens. Even most Conservatives in Canada are left of centre, socially for sure but perhaps not so true economically.

So the 30% of Republicans who believe him to be a Muslim are the ones who don't watch FOX?

It isn't thirty percent of Republicans. Thirty percent of Americans. I know it helps to be thick when you wish to hold a certain view but it really gets in the way of objectivity. You don't watch Fox either, do you? If you did you would know Obama attended the same Black theology Christian church for twenty years. Did you know he started his political career in association with William Ayers? Obama has distanced himself form both his church and Ayers.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yep it is everyone's fault BUT those who actually believe that stuipd lie. Gotcha.

People can believe whatever they wish. Some people actually believe that Canada is "peacekeeping" in Afghanistan! LOL!

[Pliny]

Hahaha both of these statements are false.

Hahaha..that statement is false. A rather easy game to play.

You say "they've learned what competition is" as if it's a bad thing. They sure have, and they're growing incredibly rapidly.

It's the suggestion of the Tea party too. Get out of the way Mr. big government.

As for redistributing the wealth, cutting taxes to me doesn't seem to fit that pattern.

You have to be able to differentiate between tax cuts and tax credits.

Name the bill enacted that actually cut taxes and wasn't a tax credit?

Those checks and balances were the reason that the States became the most productive nation in the world. They tended to keep government off the backs of the people.

No they didn't, it was WW2. Which, funny enough, was all driven by government spending.

Those checks and balances disappeared during WW II. And the US was most successful before WW I.

Harder. Harder to legislate leads to further bureaucratisation.

Gee... how did they ever legislate that?

Well, when you're so far to the rihgt everything has a left wing bias, it's a pretty good indication you're an extremist right winger.

Oh yes....I'm for big government goosestepping in the streets. Pretty lame accusation. But I realize your point of view has to place me there because you are a centrist; where else could I fit in. You know damn well I don't fit the right wing extremist definition. So what's with trying to perpetrate that lie? Some kind of "centrist" bias?

The Muslim concept comes from name association more than likely....Barack Hussein Obama doesn't sound like it's from the Bible. Anyone who watches Fox news knows Obama isn't Muslim. His association with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright was covered quite extensively on Fox.

Yes, because he chose his name. In pluralistic societies, you have the choiceto chose your religion. He's christian.

???????? Rather non sequiter response. I can't make anything of it.

When he was young he preferred to be called "Barry".

Ahahahahah so tax credits are bad? You must hate Harper, then. As for actual taxes, credits aside, he did actually cut them. So please, spare me the righteousness regarding "liberal spin."

yes tax credits are bad and I disagree with them. I wouldn't get any different offering from Liberals though.

Ok....Name the bill that cut taxes. There isn't one. Please! Spare me your righteous spin!

Maybe if you ever used the "quote" tool properly. You've no idea how to use them and bits of my text and your text gets jumbled up and I don't know which is which. Use it properly next time and I'll respnd to everything.

Let's get small.

Which, no matter who is elected won't happen because both the freedom loving republicans and those freedom hating socialist democrats both essentially do the same thing. The difference is the Republicans lie about what they want to do. Before you go on about how Republicans are just as bad and the tea party is where it's at, the tea party is just an arm of the republican party, so don't even try to pull that argument out.

The tea party has to straighten out the Republicans and oust the liberal BS that's tainted it and made them, as you say..."essentially the same thing". Your usual muddiness first claims they are essentiually the same thing and then says the tea party is an arm of the Republican party so I have no argument.

Well, when everything that you oppose is a socialist or a marxist, that's certainly the sign of critical thinking. Congrats.

I do oppose Marxism and socialism that doens't make everyone I oppose a Marxist or a socialist. You are a socialist and attempting to position yourself as a centrist is at best confused.

[bloodyminded]

Exactly.

I actually think that the media, but polling the Obama/Muslim question every few months, have greatly contributed to the results of the polls. By asking the question of whether Obama's a Muslim, it implies that there's a question to begin with. And when you ask that same question over and over, it will eventually to begin resonate.

I think that's an interesting point.

[bloodyminded]

Yep it is everyone's fault BUT those who actually believe that stuipd lie. Gotcha.

And that, too, is an interesting point.

[bloodyminded]

Yes I have offered this hypothesis before. Both you and nicky feel you are centrists. In Canada I wouldn't argue the point.

I don't consider myself a centrist. It's pretty clear to me that I'm a leftist...and by Canadian standards, I mean.

It isn't thirty percent of Republicans. Thirty percent of Americans. I know it helps to be thick when you wish to hold a certain view but it really gets in the way of objectivity.

Your last point is quite funny, considering it IS 30% of Republicans; 18% of Americans.

Was this error your objectivity at work?

You don't watch Fox either, do you? If you did you would know Obama attended the same Black theology Christian church for twenty years. Did you know he started his political career in association with William Ayers? Obama has distanced himself form both his church and Ayers.

I don't think anyone who had a passing interest in the '08 elections was unaware of these things.

Edited September 5, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Pliny]

I don't consider myself a centrist. It's pretty clear to me that I'm a leftist...and by Canadian standards, I mean.

It didn't seem so clear to you earlier.

Your last point is quite funny, considering it IS 30% of Republicans; 18% of Americans.

Was this error your objectivity at work?

My mistake. It was 34% of Americans think he is Christian. Thank you for bringing that up.

I think the slant is, especially from Republicans that Obama seems to favour Islam. Especially after his statements regarding the NYC ground zero Mosque after which Time Magazine did a poll and found 24% of Americans believed he was Muslim.

A fair percentage said they judged Obama's religion by his own statements and actions.

From MSNBC no less

There is no doubt the Republicans do emphasize any favour that Obama shows towards Islam which would contribute to more Republicans thinking he was Muslim in comparison to the 18% of Americans in general who think he is.

I don't think anyone who had a passing interest in the '08 elections was unaware of these things.

What did the "centrist" mainstream media say? I think they downplayed it.

[Shady]

I don't see what the big deal is. You can poll many things that will get 20% of people believing or supporting some pretty weird stuff.

Remember when 35% of Democrats believed that Bush knew about 9/11 in advance?

Democrats in America are evenly divided on the question of whether George W. Bush knew about the 9/11 terrorist attacks in advance. Thirty-five percent (35%) of Democrats believe he did know, 39% say he did not know, and 26% are not sure.

Overall, 22% of all voters believe the President knew about the attacks in advance. A slightly larger number, 29%, believe the CIA knew about the attacks in advance.

Link

I don't remember the media giving a rat's ass about this poll. I don't remember the same handwringing over something like this, that's arguably worse than the religious affiliation of a President.

[Pliny]

People tend to believe what the want to believe. IF fox news says Obama supports Islam in their effort to build a mosque at ground zero the percentage of those thinking he is Muslim will go up because they disagree with him.

[bloodyminded]

It didn't seem so clear to you earlier.

When? Where?

Are you just concocting things for the sake of a non-existent debate?

[Pliny]

Are you just concocting things for the sake of a non-existent debate?

You don't consider yourself a centrist? Hard to determine from this post.

Posted 29 April 2010 - 11:22 AM

think you're making two errors, both related. First of all, Obama is not a socialist.

But ok, that argument can go round and round forever, so here's a better one: many of the posters here whom you deem "socialists" most likely are not.

Myself, for example. Just like, to guess at a number, 90% or more of North Americans, I consider myself a capitalist, but with a belief in certain "socialist" (broadly termed) ameliorative properties to diminish some of capitalism's harsher effects.

And virtually everyone, no doubt yourself included, feels the same way. The difference is only a matter of degree, not of basic philosophy.

I have never heard you call yourself left wing before. I have implied to you in the past that you considered yourself centrist and you haven't argued the point. And you don't consider Obama a socialist?

I don't think you are a far left liberal but you do lean left.

Now I understand socialism as being a means to an end. The end being the total socialist state and I don't believe that is the end you have in mind or that socialist concepts are a means that will take us to that end. However, that is my understanding of how we eventually arrive there and the alternative method of achieving the total state is revolution. If you support social engineering in any respect you are a socialist to a degree. Obama is of course about redistributing wealth how can that stand be denied to be socialist. Because business is allowed to exist does not mean the person is a capitalist. If he holds that business be heavily regulated, it is only a short distance to the total state.

Being in the majority, as you say you are, and being left wing makes 90% of people left wing.

While I believe that to be a true deduction from your statements I don't think you would agree.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Pliny

[bloodyminded]

You don't consider yourself a centrist? Hard to determine from this post.

I have never heard you call yourself left wing before.

But I have...when we had this practically identical discussion before, and when you determined to attribute to me an opinion of myself which I do not hold.

It's frankly bizarre.

I have implied to you in the past that you considered yourself centrist and you haven't argued the point. And you don't consider Obama a socialist?

no, i consider Obama a capitalist--as does the Business community generally who supported him above McCain--with a few mildly socialist leanings.

Much like Ronald Reagan, for one example out of thousands.

I don't think you are a far left liberal but you do lean left.

i have no idea how far i lean--it's not a simple matter. but certainly I lean left.

I mean...who here would argue the point??? See if you can find one.

Now I understand socialism as being a means to an end. The end being the total socialist state and I don't believe that is the end you have in mind or that socialist concepts are a means that will take us to that end. However, that is my understanding of how we eventually arrive there and the alternative method of achieving the total state is revolution. If you support social engineering in any respect you are a socialist to a degree.

Everyone, practically without exception, favours social engineering to some degree or other. Your complaint is with the direction of the engineering.

Obama is of course about redistributing wealth how can that stand be denied to be socialist. Because business is allowed to exist does not mean the person is a capitalist. If he holds that business be heavily regulated, it is only a short distance to the total state.

Every Western leader has believed in regulation in one form or another.

Every. Single. One.

Being in the majority, as you say you are, and being left wing makes 90% of people left wing.

Nope. i have always said my opinion is roughly aligned with majority opinion on a whole raft of issues. Not all of them, by a long shot.

While I believe that to be a true deduction from your statements I don't think you would agree.

Well, of course I don't agree with your deduction.

[Pliny]

But I have...when we had this practically identical discussion before, and when you determined to attribute to me an opinion of myself which I do not hold.

It's frankly bizarre.

no, i consider Obama a capitalist--as does the Business community generally who supported him above McCain--with a few mildly socialist leanings.

Much like Ronald Reagan, for one example out of thousands.

Capitalism is not a political ideology. The political ideology of Obama and Reagan are completely different. If you wanted to place their capitalist concepts on a scale from say, free enterprise to the totally state controlled economy. Reagan would be closer to the free enterprise side and Obama closer to the state controlled economy.

McCain, in my view, is a Republican in name only (RINO), I would say he is left of centre politically.

I had concluded from our previous discussion on this that you thought of yourself as a centrist and it is the only way I can understand your point of view. But to me the centre is where the small government minimal state must reside. There is no other place on the spectrum it can reside. So I consider myself a centrist. You probably think of me as right wing but Politically I am not. I do, as an individual, hold what are considered conservative mores and values, however. As an example, I personally do not approve of the use of marijuana but politically would not make any legislation regarding it's use.

If you think Obama is not a socialist, socialism being on the left of the political spectrum, then I must assume you think he is a centrist or right wing. How else can I understand what you are saying?

Everyone, practically without exception, favours social engineering to some degree or other. Your complaint is with the direction of the engineering.

True, most people do favour social engineering to some degree or other.

My complaint is that there is too much. I don't like the right's engineering any more than the left's.

Society actually needs no social engineering from government, especially a national government.

Every Western leader has believed in regulation in one form or another.

Every. Single. One.

A rather redundant statement.

We could broaden that and say every ruler or government leader has believed in regulation.

Not the same as believing in social engineering.

Nope. i have always said my opinion is roughly aligned with majority opinion on a whole raft of issues. Not all of them, by a long shot.

Well, of course I don't agree with your deduction.

Most people in western democracies don't consider themselves socialists. If they are for big government and social engineering I consider them socialist. Because socialism is an evolutionary process towards the totalitarian state. But you probably don't agree with any of that either.

[bloodyminded]

Capitalism is not a political ideology.

All systems take on political ideology. Whether it's somehow inherent or not is irrelevant...because objective reality matters more than hypotheticals which don't exist.

The political ideology of Obama and Reagan are completely different. If you wanted to place their capitalist concepts on a scale from say, free enterprise to the totally state controlled economy. Reagan would be closer to the free enterprise side and Obama closer to the state controlled economy.

No, they're not totally different at all. They're roughly the same. You yourself, directly after saying they are "totally" different, go on to more reasonably ascribing the differences to a matter of degree, not of type.

If you think Obama is not a socialist, socialism being on the left of the political spectrum, then I must assume you think he is a centrist or right wing. How else can I understand what you are saying?

Yes, I would consider him a centrist, certainly.

A rather redundant statement.

Truisms are.

We could broaden that and say every ruler or government leader has believed in regulation.

Not the same as believing in social engineering.

But my remark about regulation was not about "social engineering." It was a response to your remark about regulation:

If he holds that business be heavily regulated, it is only a short distance to the total state.

That's what I was responding to.

At any rate, everyone believes in regulation. The question is only about degree. "Heavily" needs to be defined for your point to have any meaning.

Most people in western democracies don't consider themselves socialists.

No, they have learned to detest the word, but they don't often know what it means. Those who don't consider themsleves socialists--say, the Tea Partiers--are largely angry at the notion of losing, for example, social security and socialized health cost initiatives like medicare and medicaid. So their hatred of socialism is conveniently selective.

Edited September 19, 2010 by bloodyminded