The Pulse of the Nation

Pliny · September 4, 2010

Left wing Canadians believe they understand our southern neighbours. It is true that the mainstream American media is sounding more and more Canadian and instead of reporting on the direction of political leaders are pushing the agenda. What's actually happening on Main street seems to be unimportant to the mainstream media.

In a nation that is supposed to be united under the Obama administration I see it more divisive than ever.

The line is more definitive with the mainstream media and the Obama/Pelosi/Reid administration on one side and the grass roots TEA party on the other. The Republican party seems to be caught in the middle and doesn't know which way to turn. The editorial opinion of Fox News favours the TEA party and does a good job of interpreting the cryptic spin of the left wing media so the average citizen can understand it.

Often it is not intended to be understood and is just political rhetoric that is supposed to assuage the concerns of the masses - an increasingly difficult job when the spin is removed and the rhetoric properly translated.

So what is going on in the country? Who has their finger on the pulse of the Nation?

I think I do - the American people want bike lanes. :lol:

I think it will be proven in the upcoming mid-terms when the election will be so unbelievable and devastating to the Democrats that I can hear the desperate cries of "stolen" elections and voter fraud already. And already the Dems in seven States are trying to eliminate military votes (which generally favour the right) by saying they can't get the ballots out in time.

bloodyminded · September 4, 2010

No one properly has "the pulse of the nation" because the nation is highly complex and myriad, and all the comnponents add up to make it what it is. By definition. There is not some entity called "America" which is properly delineated by the Tea Party. Those Americans who oppose or disagree with the Tea Partiers--and they are legion--are every bit as American, as "Main Street" as are those with whom they disagree.

What I find odd in your post is that you think all that disagrees with your view is "spin," whereas all who agree are just, well, reporting the facts, ma'am.

There is plenty of spin, you're right. But it goes both ways.

Personally, I consider the Tea Partiers to be very rationally engaged, and justifiably angry. I only think their ire is somewhat misdirected. But this, too, is a complicated matter.

nicky10013 · September 4, 2010

The Tea Party, like any conservative popular movement, is a backlash against change. The change is actually mostly international. My thesis is that it's a response to the decline if not death of the ideal of American Exceptionalism; the notion that America is a shining beacon of freedom for the rest of the world. With the economic decline, the borrowing from China and immigrants flooding across the border, the defeat in Iraq and the war going poorly in Afghanistan is seriously challenging old time views of American supremacy. I've seen many interviews saying people believe that America is the last best hope in the world and if the US fails so will the rest of the world, which is a fairly telling statement. It's a reaction against the new type of politics where the US won't be a global hegemon but merely a senior partner in global geopolitics.

They're also poorly educated (explanation coming) and mostly white. I've seen stats to say that 45% of people who are tea party activists are university educated and I don't disagree with that. The point here is that someone with an egineering degree probably has the same level of education on the government as a high school drop out. This is really unfortunate and which is why I think civics needs to be bolstered in high schools and elementary schools. The resultant effect is a large swath of voters who are concerned about issues which they very much should be concerned about, but have very little idea of how complicated those issues are. As a result, you get responses to questions that are very broad. IE, how do you make America better? "Move back to the constitution." In what ways has the US moved away from the constitution? "There's too many things to list." In other words, they don't know. The worst part about this is it allows con artists like Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly to exploit that ignorance and mold it into whatever narrative they want. Rather than a critique of American politics as a whole, the tea party movement ignores the republican responsibility behind a lot of what is happening today which speaks to the fact that, despite organizers claims, it very much is a partisan based movement. How many people believe Obama is a muslim? How many people believe he's raised taxes when he's actually cut taxes? These are all narratives that have come out of Fox News despite being patently false. So, to make the comment that Fox News is countering the cryptic spin of the left (IE, there isn't anything so people have to act as if it's some masked conspiracy), when they're clearly spreading propaganda of their own is hypocrtical at best.

The democrats will lose seats in the senate and the house, probably losing the latter entirely. However, this isn't exactly new. Every president since Nixon has lost seats in their first mid-term. The notion that Obama is finished is GREATLY exaggerated. The bottom line here is that there are a great many issues that are important which people in the tea party should rightly be worried about. However, the reaction is completely overblown and destroys any chance moderates have of actually improving the situation. Tax cuts and "bringing America back to the constitution" is just not going to be enough to turn this around. Anyone claiming otherwise either doesn't know what they're talking about or are deliberately playing people.

bloodyminded · September 4, 2010

The resultant effect is a large swath of voters who are concerned about issues which they very much should be concerned about, but have very little idea of how complicated those issues are.

I agree. And in fact, as the old-time populist Left has withered, I would say left/liberals share a big part of the blame for the misunderstandings. I don't mean that the Tea Partiers should be leftists...they should do whatever they want. I only mean that they aren't hearing enough of a range of opinion--not in a muscular, coherent way--so they naturally turn to people who give them answers.

Well, I think the people who are giving them answers are mostly wrong, but at least they are answers. So the perceived decline of national morality (another point on which I disagree, but I don't wish to digress here too much) is the fault of "permissive liberalism," personified by entertainment, teachers' unions, and other baleful influences. People's jobs and livelihoods are in danger because of "liberals lax stance on immigration," and because "liberal elites" are trying to take all their money and rule by Big Government, etc.

Well, the fct is that there are people we might loosely term "liberal elites" who are screwing people over. The misunderstanding is that so much is conveniently left out of this equation. Conservative elites are also to blame, and easily on equal measure....I don't even know how people could debate that truism. Big Business and the financial industry are screwing people over too, and they are in absolute collusion with government. This is left out of the narrative as well, as Tea Party "leaders" like Sarah Palin are utterly pro-corporate and supportive of elite interests....as she talks about how "real Americans" are restricted to small towns and "traditional values," a coded term meant to incite emotion and victimology at the expense of reason.

And, as you say, there is a global financial system, complex and philosophically at odds with most people's views, and this has somehow been misdirected as more machinations of "liberal elites", including humanities professors and Hollywood filmmakers. It's a false and terrible narrative, but they're not hearing strong enough narratives from anyone else.

Edited September 4, 2010 by bloodyminded

Pliny · September 5, 2010

No one properly has "the pulse of the nation" because the nation is highly complex and myriad, and all the comnponents add up to make it what it is.

There is something that defines Americans, that differentiates them from other nationalities. What is it? It has to be common to all Americans. Your statement says there is nothing common about each American and thus no one can have their pulse on the nation. All the components add up to make it what it is - but what is that? It certainly, as is implied by your statement, is not just a bunch of individuals with nothing in common.

By definition. There is not some entity called "America" which is properly delineated by the Tea Party. Those Americans who oppose or disagree with the Tea Partiers--and they are legion--are every bit as American, as "Main Street" as are those with whom they disagree.

America has a constitution. The constitution outlines the structure of the Republic - the structure of government. An important aspect of it is that it divides power into several entities. It's Founders knew that power should not be concentrated into one body and that the freedom and liberty of the people depended upon power remaining in the hands of the people.

What I find odd in your post is that you think all that disagrees with your view is "spin," whereas all who agree are just, well, reporting the facts, ma'am.

There is plenty of spin, you're right. But it goes both ways.

Yes, it does go both ways. Glenn Beck puts a little too much of a religious spin on things for my liking and I think Hannity is a little too supportive of his concept of Conservative government and I don't deny that needs to be taken into account.

What Fox offers, and what has been missing in the political landscape is an effective voice in opposition to the growth of government. The left and the right have both worked to fund themselves both complaining about each other in the process but not willing to challenge each other to choke the power that big government gives them.

No one can argue against the do good liberals and their concern for their fellow man. And the right wing is probably best at defending against every boogey man that could pose a threat to democracy.

The question is how much government is necessary to accomplish the welfare and warfare they both promote or should society take back those responsibilities. Isn't it really a shrugging of responsibilities to foist them onto government and just pay a few extra bucks in taxes for the convenience?

Personally, I consider the Tea Partiers to be very rationally engaged, and justifiably angry. I only think their ire is somewhat misdirected. But this, too, is a complicated matter.

I believe there is an attempt being made to make it less complicated.

Pliny · September 5, 2010

The Tea Party, like any conservative popular movement, is a backlash against change. The change is actually mostly international. My thesis is that it's a response to the decline if not death of the ideal of American Exceptionalism; the notion that America is a shining beacon of freedom for the rest of the world. With the economic decline, the borrowing from China and immigrants flooding across the border, the defeat in Iraq and the war going poorly in Afghanistan is seriously challenging old time views of American supremacy. I've seen many interviews saying people believe that America is the last best hope in the world and if the US fails so will the rest of the world, which is a fairly telling statement. It's a reaction against the new type of politics where the US won't be a global hegemon but merely a senior partner in global geopolitics.

I agree. The Tea Party is a backlash against change. The change has been evident since about the middle of the nineteenth century and became obvious at the beginning of WW I.

All of the failures you mention are failures of the American government. As it grows in size and America sheds it's skin as a nation leading by example and becomes increasingly belligerent and imperialistic it loses it's exceptionalism. It was the most productive nation of the world but as you say is becoming merely a senior partner in global geopolitics.

It has become increasingly like all other nations with governments of entitlement, something Americans have traditionally rejected but lost ground to over the past century.

They're also poorly educated (explanation coming) and mostly white. I've seen stats to say that 45% of people who are tea party activists are university educated and I don't disagree with that. The point here is that someone with an egineering degree probably has the same level of education on the government as a high school drop out. This is really unfortunate and which is why I think civics needs to be bolstered in high schools and elementary schools.

Perhaps not entirely without purpose. Knowledge is power and proper payment is exacted for it and the maintenance of it's erudition is expected.

The resultant effect is a large swath of voters who are concerned about issues which they very much should be concerned about, but have very little idea of how complicated those issues are. As a result, you get responses to questions that are very broad. IE, how do you make America better? "Move back to the constitution." In what ways has the US moved away from the constitution? "There's too many things to list." In other words, they don't know. The worst part about this is it allows con artists like Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly to exploit that ignorance and mold it into whatever narrative they want.

Does that mean the left has no spin on their politics and they are void of the exploitation of ignorance? At least someone should examine that possibility. I can't believe you are suggesting political groups have free rein to spin their politics whatever way they wish.

The Democrats and the Republicans have spun things the way they like and neither questions the others growth of government. The Liberals with their do-good welfare and the Republicans with their security-of-the-nation warfare. Each adding to their pet entitlements over time.

Once entitlements are won they are impossible to get rid of voters are not inclined to vote away their benefits.

Rather than a critique of American politics as a whole, the tea party movement ignores the republican responsibility behind a lot of what is happening today which speaks to the fact that, despite organizers claims, it very much is a partisan based movement. How many people believe Obama is a muslim? How many people believe he's raised taxes when he's actually cut taxes?

it is probable most haven't paid too much attention to Obama's religion. It isn't a big thing in America except to the lib-left. If they watched Fox news they would know he attended the church of Rev. Jeremiah Wright for twenty years in Chicago. I guess that didn't get much coverage in the mainstream media along with Obama's association with William Ayers.

As for "tax cuts" let's not get them confused with "tax credits".

Cuts or credits

These are all narratives that have come out of Fox News despite being patently false. So, to make the comment that Fox News is countering the cryptic spin of the left (IE, there isn't anything so people have to act as if it's some masked conspiracy), when they're clearly spreading propaganda of their own is hypocrtical at best.

Sorry they didn't come out of Fox news. It is known by most that Obama's middle name was Hussein and his other names are not Christian. It isn't a stretch to think he is Muslim if you never really cared to think about it before. His support of the NY Mosque might suggest some connection to Islam but it is just indicative of assumptive ignorance.

The democrats will lose seats in the senate and the house, probably losing the latter entirely. However, this isn't exactly new. Every president since Nixon has lost seats in their first mid-term. The notion that Obama is finished is GREATLY exaggerated. The bottom line here is that there are a great many issues that are important which people in the tea party should rightly be worried about. However, the reaction is completely overblown and destroys any chance moderates have of actually improving the situation. Tax cuts and "bringing America back to the constitution" is just not going to be enough to turn this around. Anyone claiming otherwise either doesn't know what they're talking about or are deliberately playing people.

What will be enough to turn it around, Nicky? People want to know.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Pliny

bush_cheney2004 · September 5, 2010

The Tea Party, like any conservative popular movement, is a backlash against change. The change is actually mostly international. My thesis is that it's a response to the decline if not death of the ideal of American Exceptionalism; the notion that America is a shining beacon of freedom for the rest of the world. With the economic decline, the borrowing from China and immigrants flooding across the border, the defeat in Iraq and the war going poorly in Afghanistan is seriously challenging old time views of American supremacy....

This doesn't even make any sense....people are "flooding across the border" exactly for the reasons you say are in decline or dead. This includes Canadians....about 25,000 per year.

I've seen many interviews saying people believe that America is the last best hope in the world and if the US fails so will the rest of the world, which is a fairly telling statement. It's a reaction against the new type of politics where the US won't be a global hegemon but merely a senior partner in global geopolitics.

Telling for who? The United States has projected even more power as the global hegemon...it has not been curtailed.

nicky10013 · September 5, 2010

I agree. The Tea Party is a backlash against change. The change has been evident since about the middle of the nineteenth century and became obvious at the beginning of WW I.

All of the failures you mention are failures of the American government. As it grows in size and America sheds it's skin as a nation leading by example and becomes increasingly belligerent and imperialistic it loses it's exceptionalism. It was the most productive nation of the world but as you say is becoming merely a senior partner in global geopolitics.

It has become increasingly like all other nations with governments of entitlement, something Americans have traditionally rejected but lost ground to over the past century.

It's not losing power due to entitlements. The decline of the US is relative to the rise of China and India. With greater populations, it's just a matter of time before each country catches up. If there's any domestic reason, it's actually the thing tea partiers want to go back to to fix the constitution. The US constitution makes it nearly impossible for the US system to reinvigorate itself. Checks and balances makes it extremely hard for congress to pass legislation. Checks and balances are the incentive to further bureaucratisation. Example: the US has 21 intelligence agencies. A country with a parliament like Canada, can get things done quicker. Though government here is in scope bigger than it is in the US, the bureaucracies that run the social programmes we love are smaller and more efficient than the ones that operate in the US. In short, the US system of entitlements do need reform (they don't need to be discarded) but it's the system itself that's preventing it. It took over a year to get healthcare done and it was by no means a meaningful reform. Social security has almost 0 chance of getting done.

Does that mean the left has no spin on their politics and they are void of the exploitation of ignorance? At least someone should examine that possibility. I can't believe you are suggesting political groups have free rein to spin their politics whatever way they wish.
The Democrats and the Republicans have spun things the way they like and neither questions the others growth of government. The Liberals with their do-good welfare and the Republicans with their security-of-the-nation warfare. Each adding to their pet entitlements over time.

Of course the left has their spin. My only point was that besides MSNBC, which is a backwater channel no one watches, there is no liberal main stream media. Just because channels like CNN give time to the other side doesn't mean that their biased.

it is probable most haven't paid too much attention to Obama's religion. It isn't a big thing in America except to the lib-left. If they watched Fox news they would know he attended the church of Rev. Jeremiah Wright for twenty years in Chicago. I guess that didn't get much coverage in the mainstream media along with Obama's association with William Ayers.
As for "tax cuts" let's not get hem confused with "tax credits".

Cuts or credits

What lib-left? Where is the mythical left you speak of?

Perhaps not entirely without purpose. Knowledge is power and proper payment is exacted for it and the maintenance of it's erudition is expected.
Sorry they didn't come out of Fox news. It is known by most that Obama's middle name was Hussein and his other names are not Christian. It isn't a stretch to think he is Muslim if you never really cared to think about it before. His support of the NY Mosque might suggest some connection to Islam but it is just indicative of assumptive ignorance.

Then where is it coming from? It's coming from people from the extreme right of the US political spectrum, people like Palin's medium is Fox News. Did it originate at Fox? No, I don't think one could argue that. However, it's being beamed out to ignorant suckers looking for anything to plug their anger into. That's dangerous.

What will be enough to turn it around, Nicky? People want to know.

Unlike the tea partiers, who, if you truly listen to them have no answer, I don't have one.

nicky10013 · September 5, 2010

This doesn't even make any sense....people are "flooding across the border" exactly for the reasons you say are in decline or dead. This includes Canadians....about 25,000 per year.

That's not the point. It's the inability of the supposedly mighty United States to even stem the flow of people wading across the river, it questions the inherent nobility of that country.

Telling for who? The United States has projected even more power as the global hegemon...it has not been curtailed.

Despite the rhetoric, the US just left Iraq with it's tail between it's legged having been whooped by underfed teens with home made explosives. If that's projecting power then I don't know what is.

bush_cheney2004 · September 5, 2010

It's not losing power due to entitlements. The decline of the US is relative to the rise of China and India. With greater populations, it's just a matter of time before each country catches up. If there's any domestic reason, it's actually the thing tea partiers want to go back to to fix the constitution. The US constitution makes it nearly impossible for the US system to reinvigorate itself. Checks and balances makes it extremely hard for congress to pass legislation.

Hmmmm...ever heard of Meech Lake or Charlottetown?

Of course the left has their spin. My only point was that besides MSNBC, which is a backwater channel no one watches, there is no liberal main stream media. Just because channels like CNN give time to the other side doesn't mean that their biased.

Somebody only watches TV it seems...but it's still American TV!

bush_cheney2004 · September 5, 2010

That's not the point. It's the inability of the supposedly mighty United States to even stem the flow of people wading across the river, it questions the inherent nobility of that country.

The US has not as a matter of policy stopped the "flood of immigrants" is such a way. That's one of the reasons US population has grown to 305,000,000. What is Canada's population even with a higher rate of relative immigration ?

Despite the rhetoric, the US just left Iraq with it's tail between it's legged having been whooped by underfed teens with home made explosives. If that's projecting power then I don't know what is.

Bullshit....the US is still occupying the country with 50,000 troops.

nicky10013 · September 5, 2010

The US has not as a matter of policy stopped the "flood of immigrants" is such a way. That's one of the reasons US population has grown to 305,000,000. What is Canada's population even with a higher rate of relative immigration ?

Since when has this become a pissing contest about the size of the country?

Bullshit....the US is still occupying the country with 50,000 troops.

Yeah, they're all sitting in the desert doing nothing until they get the call to cross into Kuwait later next year. Nothing the US set out to accomplish in Iraq has been accomplished. There hasn't been a government in 5 months. After the US leaves next year the country is going to break down into yet more authoritarianism.

Speaking of projecting power, what has the gigantic surge (of Sovet purportions [funny, the pictures of the last US troops leaving Iraq look A LOT like the last Soviet troops leaving Afghanistan]) in Afghanistan accomplished?

Edited September 5, 2010 by nicky10013

Bonam · September 5, 2010

They're also poorly educated (explanation coming) and mostly white. I've seen stats to say that 45% of people who are tea party activists are university educated and I don't disagree with that. The point here is that someone with an egineering degree probably has the same level of education on the government as a high school drop out.

Bollocks. What engineers are good at is coming up with real solutions to real problems, making things that work. We need more people active in politics with that kind of training and mentality. Not more "political science" trained socialist nutjobs.

nicky10013 · September 5, 2010

Bollocks. What engineers are good at is coming up with real solutions to real problems, making things that work. We need more people active in politics with that kind of training and mentality. Not more "political science" trained socialist nutjobs.

Since when do engineers have more experience in constitutional matters and macroeconomic finance than say, economists or professors? These are the issues that tea partiers claim to be their own (cut taxes and return to the constitution!).

bush_cheney2004 · September 5, 2010

Since when has this become a pissing contest about the size of the country?

Ever since Canada, the second largest nation on the planet, has been dwarfed by the consistent immigration to America instead. It continues to this day, with more Canadians joining the party than the opposite (Americans going to Canada). In fact, Canada has become a stepping stone to America for some.

Yeah, they're all sitting in the desert doing nothing until they get the call to cross into Kuwait later next year. Nothing the US set out to accomplish in Iraq has been accomplished. There hasn't been a government in 5 months. After the US leaves next year the country is going to break down into yet more authoritarianism.

You mean Saddam isn't really dead? He is with Elvis?

Speaking of projecting power, what has the gigantic surge (of Sovet purportions [funny, the pictures of the last US troops leaving Iraq look A LOT like the last Soviet troops leaving Afghanistan]) in Afghanistan accomplished?

You are hurting your own position. Yes, America is also in Afghanistan in growing numbers. I heard that Canada was there too.

Smallc · September 5, 2010

Bollocks. What engineers are good at is coming up with real solutions to real problems, making things that work. We need more people active in politics with that kind of training and mentality. Not more "political science" trained socialist nutjobs.

Yes, because being trained to an actual profession is a terrible thing. Sorry, but limiting the people who write public policy to only science majors would be a disaster. An engineer would have no better idea about how to solve most issues than anyone else would when it comes to public policy

bush_cheney2004 · September 5, 2010

Yes, because being trained to an actual profession is a terrible thing. Sorry, but limiting the people who write public policy to only science majors would be a disaster. An engineer would have no better idea about how to solve most issues than anyone else would when it comes to public policy

Sounds likes bigotry to me...against engineers. Shameful!

Edited September 5, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

nicky10013 · September 5, 2010

Ever since Canada, the second largest nation on the planet, has been dwarfed by the consistent immigration to America instead. It continues to this day, with more Canadians joining the party than the opposite (Americans going to Canada). In fact, Canada has become a stepping stone to America for some.

This isn't about Canada. This article is about the US. Even if Canada was a stepping stone to the US, it doesn't change the fact that people are pissed the government can't closed the border.

You mean Saddam isn't really dead? He is with Elvis?

5000 US dead, 30,000 US casualties, a million Iraqi dead and the only thing the US accomplished was the removal of a bloodthirsty dictator that will be replaced by another blood thirsty dictator in a year? You have a really low bar for success.

You are hurting your own position. Yes, America is also in Afghanistan in growing numbers. I heard that Canada was there too.

Gee, I never saw this one coming. Canada isn't the global hegemon that can't project power.

nicky10013 · September 5, 2010

Sounds likes bigotry to me...against engineers. Shameful!

The only thing shameful here is your absolute lack of any argument to stand on.

bush_cheney2004 · September 5, 2010

The only thing shameful here is your absolute lack of any argument to stand on.

There is no argument...we have a very low standard now for bigotry thanks to you guys. How does it feel to be a bigot?

bush_cheney2004 · September 5, 2010

This isn't about Canada. This article is about the US. Even if Canada was a stepping stone to the US, it doesn't change the fact that people are pissed the government can't closed the border.

Canada also has a border with the USA...with illegals! The federal government most certainly can close the border if it wanted to. People are also "pissed" at that prospect.

5000 US dead, 30,000 US casualties, a million Iraqi dead and the only thing the US accomplished was the removal of a bloodthirsty dictator that will be replaced by another blood thirsty dictator in a year? You have a really low bar for success.

In other words, you were wrong. Not surprising....

Gee, I never saw this one coming. Canada isn't the global hegemon that can't project power.

But you said America was no longer in this role...make up your mind.

nicky10013 · September 5, 2010

There is no argument...we have a very low standard now for bigotry thanks to you guys. How does it feel to be a bigot?

So now you're resorting to calling me a biggot? This is sad. Even from you. Talk about new lows.

bush_cheney2004 · September 5, 2010

So now you're resorting to calling me a biggot? This is sad. Even from you. Talk about new lows.

You are bigoted towards those with differing views. Why are you so bigoted in this way?

nicky10013 · September 5, 2010

Canada also has a border with the USA...with illegals! The federal government most certainly can close the border if it wanted to. People are also "pissed" at that prospect.

No, the US can't close the border. Well, they can, but it would be the stupidest economic move of the last 50 years.