HST, B.C. not as easy to say no to Ottawa

[eyeball]

And what payroll tax would the provincial Liberals eliminate?

MSP?

My apologies, by payroll tax I meant income tax.

I also don't understand the point of lowering payroll taxes.

As I said in my last line, I think we should increase taxes on things that are bad for the environment like consumption, and eliminate taxes on things that are good for society, like income. This gives people more control over where their money is spent.

The reason we aren't hiring isn't because of payroll taxes. It's because there is an aggregate demand problem.

Lack of demand for business will ensure that I don't hire no matter how low payroll taxes are.

That certainly jibes with the reality most people face where I live, where about the only thing people are demanding these days are necessities and everything else is becoming a luxury. Even a job has become a luxury, virtually every natural resource that people used to make a living from are now enclosed within individual quotas owned by big companies and people who don't live here. Take fish for example, the biggest salmon run in history just swam past us and we didn't see a single scale or a penny from it. A few years ago we probably could have counted on some 5 - 10% of that fish being caught and landed here.

BC doesn't get to control its fish the way Alberta gets to control its oil, shame about that. As the tread's title suggests we now have even less control over how we're taxed or by whom and for what. The differences between the provincial or federal Liberals or even governments is pretty moot to most people on the ground where it's just the government vs the governed, them vs everyone else.

Well, the BC Liberals have brought in a carbon tax which has increased the price of gas. They have brought in the HST which taxes consumption a little bit more (from a consumer point of view) and businesses less (input tax credits claimed by HST registrants).

Oh, and they have dramatically lowered income taxes since 2001 not to mention raised the basic personal exemption, went along with the Federal government to allow seniors to split pension income etc.

But, hey, that would require people to actually remember and to actually know things like: how much tax do I pay? In what forms am I paying it? etc, etc...

IOW, people are clueless.

I think it's how the BC Libs brought in the HST that has most people pissed off. The fact they left us even more vulnerable to Ottawa's depredation makes things worse.

I read a letter in the Vancouver Sun with the letter writer lamenting some kids who had to consider paying the HST on whatever it was they were going to purchase.

I thought to myself - hmmm, I remember when my grandparents gave me money for my birthday and I was in the toy store and I had to consider paying the PST on whatever toy I choose to buy.

People just don't have a clue about what's been taxed and what's being taxed.

Sure, blame the governed. Who's side are you on anyway?

[msj]

Sure, blame the governed. Who's side are you on anyway?

When "the governed" are completely ignorant about how they are taxed (and by how much) then I am clearly on the side of the informed.

I'm tired of people whining about a tax when they don't even have a clue that people (in this case kids) were already paying the tax (GST and PST) in the first place and are now paying the same amount of tax which is now called HST.

Ok, fair enough. That can of coke or that chocolate bar is now taxed at 7% more since the PST wasn't charged on that and now the HST is.

But really, why shouldn't kids pay another 7% when they consume crap? Just like the rest of us.

[eyeball]

When "the governed" are completely ignorant about how they are taxed (and by how much) then I am clearly on the side of the informed.

The more salient thing the governed were uninformed about is how the HST came about. I think that initial breach of trust offers plenty of justification for the anger it's inspired. When I think about it in addition to the way local opportunities have likewise withered under both federal and provincial management in my region, I'm quite happy to see all the shit this is stirring up.

I'm tired of people whining about a tax when they don't even have a clue that people (in this case kids) were already paying the tax (GST and PST) in the first place and are now paying the same amount of tax which is now called HST.

Ok, fair enough. That can of coke or that chocolate bar is now taxed at 7% more since the PST wasn't charged on that and now the HST is.

But really, why shouldn't kids pay another 7% when they consume crap? Just like the rest of us.

I've got no problem with taxing crap, we should tax crap even more as far as I'm concerned.

I'm a little tired of people who expect to benefit from the way we're being taxed telling the rest of us to just accept it. I'm also tired of being told to expect higher wages and more jobs when most employers around here are laying people off and I'm offering to take a cut in pay so I can keep working. If you're in the business of selling crap you probably won't be happy to learn I'll be reducing the amount I buy even more.

It's just to bad we can't tax politicians promises.

Edited September 25, 2010 by eyeball

[msj]

The more salient thing the governed were uninformed about is how the HST came about. I think that initial breach of trust offers plenty of justification for the anger it's inspired. When I think about it in addition to the way local opportunities have likewise withered under both federal and provincial management in my region, I'm quite happy to see all the shit this is stirring up.

If any of this "shit" that is being stirred up actually led to people becoming informed then sure, it would be good.

Instead, we have the same old "shit" being stirred with very few people actually knowing what is taxed and what isn't.

Another example - last Wednesday a business columnist (Globe and Mail) posted a note wondering why sales for furniture and equipment were up in June and down in July and August. He speculated that it was because of the HST.

I emailed him and asked him to explain himself. Is it because he thought people were stupid and thought it better to pay PST/GST in June rather than HST in July/August?

He pulled the story (and phoned me and replied to my email and at least had the decency to apologize for his bone headed error).

But my question really still stands. I think that many people are this stupid and some people did buy in June rather than July/August because they really are this clueless.

I've got no problem with taxing crap, we should tax crap even more as far as I'm concerned.

I'm a little tired of people who expect to benefit from the way we're being taxed telling the rest of us to just accept it. I'm also tired of being told to expect higher wages and more jobs when most employers around here are laying people off and I'm offering to take a cut in pay so I can keep working. If you're in the business of selling crap you probably won't be happy to learn I'll be reducing the amount I buy even more.

It's just to bad we can't tax the promises and lies politicians tell us.

I'm in the accounting business so I don't benefit that much.

My personal tax clients now have to pay an extra 7% and I save some money when I buy technology and supplies. My number one cost is wages/contracts and number two is rent for which the tax change has little impact (time value of money impact on the rent side but I file HST quarterly and interest rates are low so its a rounding error).

Of course, even if I did benefit greatly from it it doesn't change the fact that the HST is, albeit flawed in many ways, much better than the PST.

As for hiring people - I hire people based on how much work I have. If my clients are shutting their doors and new clients aren't coming through my door to replace them as quickly then I don't hire.

Having said that - I think it is foolish to link the current economic malaise to the HST.

The current economic environment is related to credit bubbles around the world (that showed themselves as real estate bubbles most recently) and has nothing to do with the implementation of the HST.

Sure, it is bad timing to bring in the HST but when is it every good timing to change tax policy?

Only when taxes are going down do we think it's a good time and that's just nonsense.

The HST should have happened years ago.

No, it's impact on the economy will not be huge but that doesn't mean it isn't an improvement from what we had.

[ToadBrother]

ame='Wayne McQ.' date='24 September 2010 - 08:44 PM' timestamp='1285386293' post='582741']

It was however the Tories who came up with the 1.6 B "incentive".

Maybe the amount, but the incentive system has been around since the HST came into existence.

[ToadBrother]

I'm in the accounting business so I don't benefit that much.

As someone who, as a bookkeeper, had to deal with PST constantly, and even went through a few PST audits with clients, I can tell you the HST, from an administrative point of view, is infinitely superior. The old PST system, even after the reforms, was a dog's breakfast of exceptions and archaic rules. HST is blindingly simple, as was the GST. Yes, a few areas of confusion and maybe some better targeting, but build too many exceptions into the rules, and you just end up with the PST again.

[ToadBrother]

If their policy is so smart there should have been no problem with debating it before implementation. The Liberals biggest problem isn't so much the tax but the sleazy way way it was brought in. If a proper debate had taken place they wouldn't be in anywhere near this much trouble. Right now a majority of people including many of their former supporters just see their leadership as sleazy and underhanded and not without justification.

Their story, and I think it makes sense, is that the Feds basically put a gun to their heads. They had to sign up within the narrow window of Ontario's coming on board.

I think they're probably telling the truth, to be honest with you. This was too ineptly done to be a scam. Look at how they brought in the carbon tax. Lots and lots of yelling and screaming, and yet people ultimately ate it, in part because it was a known quantity, it was an election issue, it was talked about. Nobody likes taxes, but at least when you have a chance to debate them, to make a case one way or the other, that sense that it was imposed isn't there.

But in this case, the real crime wasn't the HST, the real crime was that the Liberals lied about the revenue forecasts in spring 2009 pre-election budget; in other words a fudge-it budget. When the hole in the revenue became very obvious, the Government was left with a list of unsavory choices; cut programs or raise taxes. Then along comes the HST, which Ministry of Finance staff had obviously been paying attention to because of the negotiations between the Feds and Ontario.

Like I said, I think Hansen and Campbell are telling the truth on the HST. I doubt it was on their radar. It only became important when they found out just how faulty those fraudulent revenue projections were, and just how much the Province was in the hole. Then suddenly it was "They'll give us money for signing on?!?!?!"

To be honest, I think the Liberals would be in this position now no matter what happened. If they had a few weeks after the election announced "We're sorry, those revenue numbers we announced prior to the campaign were crap, promises we've made cannot be kept and we're going to have to cut deeper into services, including core services like health care, policing, etc. and maybe even raise taxes", I think the Vander Zalm-Delaney Machine would have kicked into gear anyways. The BC Liberals, like the BC NDP before them, doomed themselves by lying to win an election. They even set themselves up for it by suspending that much ballyhooed balanced budget legislation they had passed in 2001 after they defeated the NDP.

I'm still not sure I like citizens initiatives and recall, because I think there is a real concern that we could end up with the malfunctioning California system, making California one of the most ungovernable jurisdictions in the Western world. At the same time, I do not think any government in the future will ever be able to just assume that major tax changes can just be done at their pleasure. The BC electoral brain has been awakened to the true power of these laws that everyone assumed were impossible to use, and I think the day when a government can just impose a new tax regime, or perhaps any major change, without taking their case to the people is gone.

But make no mistake, if we give the HST the boot, we will do harm to the BC economy. It's a damned good tax, if you're going to have a tax at all. But because the Liberals waited until they were on the fiscal ropes, they couldn't do something sensible like a deep cut in income and business taxes and maybe even hiking the provincial portion of the HST a few points. That would be sound economic policy, but with an obvious benefit to the taxpayer, instead of the vague "Sometime in the future you'll see..." which has been their justification for some time.

[msj]

Their story, and I think it makes sense, is that the Feds basically put a gun to their heads. They had to sign up within the narrow window of Ontario's coming on board.

I think they're probably telling the truth, to be honest with you. This was too ineptly done to be a scam. Look at how they brought in the carbon tax. Lots and lots of yelling and screaming, and yet people ultimately ate it, in part because it was a known quantity, it was an election issue, it was talked about. Nobody likes taxes, but at least when you have a chance to debate them, to make a case one way or the other, that sense that it was imposed isn't there.

I agree with you here.

They were inept bringing it in but then they were surprised by Ontario getting on board and by the Feds compromising on things like the rate (12% rather than 13% is okay) and the large handout.

How were they supposed to make it an election issue during the election though? That would have been political suicide.

But in this case, the real crime wasn't the HST, the real crime was that the Liberals lied about the revenue forecasts in spring 2009 pre-election budget; in other words a fudge-it budget. When the hole in the revenue became very obvious, the Government was left with a list of unsavory choices; cut programs or raise taxes. Then along comes the HST, which Ministry of Finance staff had obviously been paying attention to because of the negotiations between the Feds and Ontario.

We all knew this going into the election (or at least I did).

Yet everyone, especially the NDP, ignored it.

And it's not like the NDP would have done anything different so I give them a pass on this.

Have you seen the revenue declines in other provinces and states over the past 18 to 24 months? That puts it in context (and is also why we knew, or ought to have known, that the budget was screwed up.

Like I said, I think Hansen and Campbell are telling the truth on the HST. I doubt it was on their radar. It only became important when they found out just how faulty those fraudulent revenue projections were, and just how much the Province was in the hole. Then suddenly it was "They'll give us money for signing on?!?!?!"

To be honest, I think the Liberals would be in this position now no matter what happened. If they had a few weeks after the election announced "We're sorry, those revenue numbers we announced prior to the campaign were crap, promises we've made cannot be kept and we're going to have to cut deeper into services, including core services like health care, policing, etc. and maybe even raise taxes", I think the Vander Zalm-Delaney Machine would have kicked into gear anyways. The BC Liberals, like the BC NDP before them, doomed themselves by lying to win an election. They even set themselves up for it by suspending that much ballyhooed balanced budget legislation they had passed in 2001 after they defeated the NDP.

They have to do it because of Ontario.

Yes, BC and Ontario do compete to some extent for business. And with Ontario getting rid of their PST they just made it cheaper and more efficient to do business in that province.

Saskatchewan and Manitoba will have to harmonize someday too.

No, it's not a huge factor, but it is an important one.

The other advantage is that the HST is a better way to tax than PST.

Do you really think they would take all this flak for a mere $1.6 billion?

It would have been easier (politically) to raise income taxes to cover any hole in the budget.

They are doing this because they believe that the HST is the right way to go.

I'm still not sure I like citizens initiatives and recall, because I think there is a real concern that we could end up with the malfunctioning California system, making California one of the most ungovernable jurisdictions in the Western world. At the same time, I do not think any government in the future will ever be able to just assume that major tax changes can just be done at their pleasure. The BC electoral brain has been awakened to the true power of these laws that everyone assumed were impossible to use, and I think the day when a government can just impose a new tax regime, or perhaps any major change, without taking their case to the people is gone.

Californication is my fear too.

Sometimes we need the politicians making tough decisions to tax us differently since it is far too easy for them to bribe us with our own money (and borrowed money) to the point of, well, to the point of California.

But make no mistake, if we give the HST the boot, we will do harm to the BC economy. It's a damned good tax, if you're going to have a tax at all. But because the Liberals waited until they were on the fiscal ropes, they couldn't do something sensible like a deep cut in income and business taxes and maybe even hiking the provincial portion of the HST a few points. That would be sound economic policy, but with an obvious benefit to the taxpayer, instead of the vague "Sometime in the future you'll see..." which has been their justification for some time.

Sound economics but poor politics.

I admit that I despise Harper for cutting the GST. I will never vote for a party that would cut the GST when it could have cut income taxes in the tradition of what the (Federal) Liberals did in 2000 and 2005.

But I'm in the minority since I am capable of counting my total tax burden during the year and realize that I'm better off to be taxed when I consume than when I earn income.

That's probably because I prefer to earn income than spend money and this sets me apart from all the idiots in our society who live pay cheque to pay cheque.

[Wilber]

Their story, and I think it makes sense, is that the Feds basically put a gun to their heads. They had to sign up within the narrow window of Ontario's coming on board.

Then they are damn poor negotiators. If the Feds wanted it bad enough to offer a 1.6 billion bribe there is no way Campbell and Hansen couldn't have insisted the tax had a fair hearing in the legislature. Either they folded like a cheap suit or are full of shit. Either way, neither the federal or provincial governments showed any respect for the democratic process.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Wilber

[ToadBrother]

Then they are damn poor negotiators. If the Feds wanted it bad enough to offer a 1.6 billion bribe there is no way Campbell and Hansen couldn't have insisted the tax had a fair hearing in the legislature. Either they folded like a cheap suit or are full of shit. Either way, neither the federal or provincial governments showed any respect for the democratic process.

Hard negotiations would have likely have carried on past the revelations as to the extent of the true damage to Provincial revenues. Clearly Campbell and Hansen thought that if they announced the HST with 1.6 billion dollars in hand, they would fare better than if they were outed on the revenue overestimates with nothing to show for it. Their bull----ing prior to the election screwed them over. They misjudged the anger, possibly because they thought it would be like the carbon tax.

[ToadBrother]

We all knew this going into the election (or at least I did).

Yet everyone, especially the NDP, ignored it.

And it's not like the NDP would have done anything different so I give them a pass on this.

Have you seen the revenue declines in other provinces and states over the past 18 to 24 months? That puts it in context (and is also why we knew, or ought to have known, that the budget was screwed up.

Everyone should have known that the pre-election revenue projections in 1996 were out to lunch, and yet most folks were shocked and angered when it turned out that that budget had been built on little more than wishful thinking.

The point here is the hypocrisy of the Liberals spending years, right up until the last election, raising the phantom of the Glen Clark years, only to be caught doing exactly the same thing.

I still think the HST is a good idea, mind you, I just think that a combination of arrogance, dishonesty and ineptitude lead us to this day. It's the same question the NDP should have asked themselves, a quick suicide which doesn't see the party shattered, or a lie that only buys time for the anger to grow.

The BC Liberals should have come clean in the pre-election budget. Maybe they would have lost (the popular vote count spread was only a few points for the election) but surely that's got to be better than the death by a thousand cuts they're going through now. Just how long do you think those members of the caucus vulnerable to recall will hang on, just how long do you think the caucus as a whole is going to withstand this?

Campbell's buying himself time, but all he seems to be doing is buying himself rope. The Liberals are in a horrific position no matter what way they look at it, and all because they believed winning at any cost was better than losing. Better to lose and still be standing on your feet than to win with the blood draining out of you.

[msj]

Everyone should have known that the pre-election revenue projections in 1996 were out to lunch, and yet most folks were shocked and angered when it turned out that that budget had been built on little more than wishful thinking.

I can only assume that I hang out with more intelligent people than you do.

I do not know a single person who was shocked and angered by how the budget turned out.

[eyeball]

If any of this "shit" that is being stirred up actually led to people becoming informed then sure, it would be good.

Their bull----ing prior to the election screwed them over. They misjudged the anger, possibly because they thought it would be like the carbon tax.

I still think the HST is a good idea, mind you, I just think that a combination of arrogance, dishonesty and ineptitude lead us to this day.

I can only assume that I hang out with more intelligent people than you do.

I do not know a single person who was shocked and angered by how the budget turned out.

It's definitely voter disgust with constantly being lied to that has galvanized most people. Vander Zalm has successfully harnessed that anger but I think it's missing the real target. I wish more knowledgeable people were really homing in on the secrecy and willful deceit, the sheer corruption, that gave birth to this issue. The corrosive nature of political and electoral corruption is so much more damaging in the long run to everything.

I'd rather we not take the California route towards putting every single thing to a vote and instead steer down the path of establishing greater transparency and accountability by somehow finding ways to make it harder if not impossible for politicians to lie. I still think treating the bastards in a manner that would make Orwell himself blush is called for, perhaps some sort of Truth When Campaigning Act would do the trick.

I sure as hell don't think we should ever let provincial negotiators meet with federal officials without some sort of process guardians looking over the shoulder of every negotiator ever again.

Wormhole cameras...they'd really do the trick. Speaking of worms I suspect if we cracked our government open we'd find it looks like it's been riddled with Teredo Worms.

Edited September 27, 2010 by eyeball

[ToadBrother]

I can only assume that I hang out with more intelligent people than you do.

I do not know a single person who was shocked and angered by how the budget turned out.

So a lie is okay providing folks know it's a lie? Then why all the complaints about the NDP's fudge-it budget? Why the need for balanced budget legislation?

The point here isn't whether it was seen through, but rather that the BC Liberals, when you count the vast spending for the Olympics and the Vancouver Convention Centre, have become every bit as irresponsible and arrogant as the NDP were, and they need to badly lose an election, just like the NDP did in 2001. They've been in power too long.

[ToadBrother]

Wormhole cameras...they'd really do the trick. Speaking of worms I suspect if we cracked our government open we'd find it looks like it's been riddled with Teredo Worms.

Why would anyone run for office in such a system? I sure wouldn't. You don't want California democracy, but talk of something much more terrifying.

[dre]

Off course, I view the fall of Clark and the rest of the Rat Pack as karma payback for the way they stabbed Harcourt in the back over Bingogate

Funny you mention that. Before I became a technology consultant/programmer/analyst I used to build houses, and one of the first jobs I ever worked on was building a fancy waterfront home for Dave Stupich on Gabriola Island, that I believe later turned out to have been built with bingo-gate money (although I dont know a lot about the story). He was a decent guy to work for, and the house is still beautfull... right on Berry Point by the Surf Lodge.

Mighta got me some bingo-gate money!

[dre]

Why would anyone run for office in such a system? I sure wouldn't. You don't want California democracy, but talk of something much more terrifying.

Lots if different institutions have implemented employee monitoring systems, that include cameras, microphones, monitored or restricted internet access etc. As far as I can tell they still find employees.

Why would anyone run for office in such a system? I sure wouldn't.

Youre not running for office in THIS system either though right?

My feeling is that while a transparent system might attract a different type of person (one with less to hide) there would still probably be a few people interested.

[msj]

So a lie is okay providing folks know it's a lie? Then why all the complaints about the NDP's fudge-it budget? Why the need for balanced budget legislation?

1) The economic slowdown can't be blamed on the Liberals and that is why revenue was going down and is down.

2) The election was not fought over the budget. The NDP avoided talk of the declining revenues and increasing deficits.

3) The NDP fudge-it budget became an election issue and resulted in the balanced budget legislation (which is a stupid idea). That's why the Liberals have been successful - they can frame the political issues so well that they can complain about the NDP's fiscal incompetence to the point that even the NDP believe know it to be true so that any Liberal fiscal mis-management becomes a non-issue.

4) The Liberals are still nowhere near as incompetent as the NDP when it comes to fiscal matters.

The fast ferries were unusable. The convention centre is overpriced but at least we get to amortize it over 50 years as it gets used.

The last time I checked the NDP were all for the Olympics coming to BC so it's silly to complain about cost overruns when we all know that those cost overruns occur at virtually all Olympics and would have likely been far worse under the NDP.

5) I'll take Liberal "incompetence" over NDP incompetence any election.

[ToadBrother]

1) The economic slowdown can't be blamed on the Liberals and that is why revenue was going down and is down.

Neither was the late-90s slowdown that was blamed on the NDP, but was in actuality because of commodity prices collapsing due to the Asian Flue.

2) The election was not fought over the budget. The NDP avoided talk of the declining revenues and increasing deficits.

The election was fought over fiscal responsibility, and the BC Liberals have shown a profound lack of that since the 2005 election.

3) The NDP fudge-it budget became an election issue and resulted in the balanced budget legislation (which is a stupid idea). That's why the Liberals have been successful - they can frame the political issues so well that they can complain about the NDP's fiscal incompetence to the point that even the NDP believe know it to be true so that any Liberal fiscal mis-management becomes a non-issue.

It became an election issue in 2001. In 1996 it was just a pre-eleciton budget.

4) The Liberals are still nowhere near as incompetent as the NDP when it comes to fiscal matters.

The fast ferries were unusable. The convention centre is overpriced but at least we get to amortize it over 50 years as it gets used.

The Vancouver Convention Centre dwarfs the FAst Cats in cost overruns. Even amortizing it means the taxpayer still loses more money than they did on the Fast Cats.

The last time I checked the NDP were all for the Olympics coming to BC so it's silly to complain about cost overruns when we all know that those cost overruns occur at virtually all Olympics and would have likely been far worse under the NDP.

At this point it's even trying to get the Province to tell the truth on the extent the taxpayers are on the hook. The Liberals have become as reticent at telling the truth on the true costs of such projects as the BC NDP were about the Island superhighway and other such projects.

5) I'll take Liberal "incompetence" over NDP incompetence any election.

I see no difference. I just want the Liberals out. Twelve years is too long for any government. Alberta's constant delivery of government to the Conservatives has not made a better government, but an incredibly inept one.

I'm voting against the BC Liberals not because of the HST, not even because of how it was brought in, but because they're arrogant and need time in Opposition.

[bloodyminded]

Lots if different institutions have implemented employee monitoring systems, that include cameras, microphones, monitored or restricted internet access etc. As far as I can tell they still find employees.

When I worked at Walmart, we were electronically monitored at all times: it was night, so there was no Security on site, but the video was being taped. Further, our bags were checked on the way out in the morning.

And while I found it highly offensive...everyone on this board seemed to be behind the idea when I pointed it out, to protect the poor little Mother-Corp from the crippling effects of employee theft.

(On the other hand, they wouldn't support such behaviour towards themselves, at their own jobs. Gods, no. They're not inferior subhumans like Walmart employees.)

Anyhoo, I apologize for the little rant...but i just wanted to point out that people utterly support intense monitoring of the lower orders of our workforce. Just not for the important people.

[msj]

Neither was the late-90s slowdown that was blamed on the NDP, but was in actuality because of commodity prices collapsing due to the Asian Flue.

The Asian flu started in July 1997. The NDP were in power until 2001. Their fudge-it budget was 1996.

Your time line is suspect and, therefore, you should review your thoughts on this matter accordingly.

The election was fought over fiscal responsibility, and the BC Liberals have shown a profound lack of that since the 2005 election.

If it was fought over fiscal responsibility I would have expected to have heard the NDP bring up the Liberal budget as being imaginative.

They didn't and they have no right to complain about it now.

The Vancouver Convention Centre dwarfs the FAst Cats in cost overruns. Even amortizing it means the taxpayer still loses more money than they did on the Fast Cats.

It's about cost/benefit. The Fast ferries only cost BC. We received very little to no benefit from their service.

The Conference Centre will provide benefits for decades to come which will mitigate the cost overruns.

I don't expect NDP'ers to understand this concept but there it is.

I see no difference. I just want the Liberals out. Twelve years is too long for any government. Alberta's constant delivery of government to the Conservatives has not made a better government, but an incredibly inept one.[...]

I'm voting against the BC Liberals not because of the HST, not even because of how it was brought in, but because they're arrogant and need time in Opposition.

Where possible I prefer to vote for a party rather than against a party.

The next election will be different though - I will vote for the BC Liberals only because I am voting against the NDP.

I will not even consider the Conservative Party of BC since they are hypocrites in running on HST in the past but now being against it.

The NDP - well, they are never capable of running anything (in BC, the prairies is another matter).