Israel & the Arab World

[DogOnPorch]

Leaving aside your "Hamas supporters" jibe (by which you really mean: those with the affrontery to disagree with DogonPorch), are you honestly--I mean sincerely--unaware that there are rich people in every region, and in every country?

You didn't know that there are fantastically rich people in Haiti and Somalia?

Well...now you know!

In other words...you have no explanation for a deluxe restaurant/nightclub in Gaza (or Olyimpic swimming pools)...an area apparently starving and suffering much like Stalingrad or Leningrad if one listens to the likes of naiomi...and perhaps even you.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/05/25/fancy-restaurants-and-olympic-size-pools-what-the-media-won%E2%80%99t-report-about-gaza/

Edited September 29, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[bloodyminded]

In other words...you have no explanation for a deluxe resturaunt/nightclub in Gaza (or Olyimpic swimming pools)...an area apparently starving and suffering much like Stalingrad or Leningrad if one listens to the likes of naiomi...and perhaps even you.

So according to you--and this is literally your belief--the people of Haiti are not actually living in extreme poverty...because "you have no explanation" for the life of deluxe leisure enjoyed by some of its citizens.

[DogOnPorch]

So according to you--and this is literally your belief--the people of Haiti are not actually living in extreme poverty...because "you have no explanation" for the life of deluxe leisure enjoyed by some of its citizens.

Mr Puts Words In Mouth can't explain why a luxury restaurant and an Olympic size swimming pool are located in the Gaza Strip. Is that what I'm reading? By golly it is...

Edited September 29, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[bloodyminded]

Mr Puts Words In Mouth can't explain why a luxury restaurant and an Olympic size swimming pool are located in the Gaza Strip. Is that what I'm reading? By golly it is...

You're an amazingly dishonest debater, DoP.

Again: there is no country or region on Earth without rich people.

You know this. You are aware of this.

According to you, the existence of any wealth or luxury means that the rest of the inhabitants don't live in poverty.

How did you arrive at this startling conclusion?

[DogOnPorch]

You're an amazingly dishonest debater, DoP.

Again: there is no country or region on Earth without rich people.

You know this. You are aware of this.

According to you, the existence of any wealth or luxury means that the rest of the inhabitants don't live in poverty.

How did you arrive at this startling conclusion?

I see you're having trouble explaining away 5 star resorts and huge swimming pools in a war-torn area that apparently can't feed itself nor construct houses for the supposed starving masses. No worries...makes my head shake as well.

Re: dishonest debating...Haiti...yeah...right...it moved to the ME when?

[bloodyminded]

I see you're having trouble explaining away 5 star resorts and huge swimming pools in a war-torn area that apparently can't feed itself nor construct houses for the supposed starving masses. No worries...makes my head shake as well.

Re: dishonest debating...Haiti...yeah...right...it moved to the ME when?

Like I said, I no longer believe you can be so blind to the obvious and logical diminishment of your posts.

You're just a delicate little chicken afraid of honest debating, like most ideological fanatics.

Or why don't you summon for us some evidence of poverty-stricken regions in which no rich people exist?

That's a direct challenge. Go.

[M.Dancer]

Mr Puts Words In Mouth can't explain why a luxury restaurant and an Olympic size swimming pool are located in the Gaza Strip. Is that what I'm reading? By golly it is...

It's a very simple explanation. See their client list...

UNRWA

UNDP/PAPP

UNICEF

Over paid UN diplomats need a place for R&R...and Tel Aviv is too dangerous...

[DogOnPorch]

Like I said, I no longer believe you can be so blind to the obvious and logical diminishment of your posts.

You're just a delicate little chicken afraid of honest debating, like most ideological fanatics.

Or why don't you summon for us some evidence of poverty-stricken regions in which no rich people exist?

That's a direct challenge. Go.

I don't take orders from the likes of you, bud or naiomi.

But, your apologies for Hamas are noted. Do they pay you or something? Discounts at the pool? The nightclubs?

[DogOnPorch]

It's a very simple explanation. See their client list...

UNRWA

UNDP/PAPP

UNICEF

Over paid UN diplomats need a place for R&R...and Tel Aviv is too dangerous...

But of course...all done without cement, apparently. Must be a paper mache pool...

[bloodyminded]

I don't take orders from the likes of you, bud or naiomi.

But, your apologies for Hamas are noted. Do they pay you or something? Discounts at the pool? The nightclubs?

What apologies for Hamas?

Can you be specific?

[DogOnPorch]

What apologies for Hamas?

Can you be specific?

Portraying Gaza as a typical place on the planet when it suits...or a war torn Hell hole...also when it suits.

Is it Leningrad or Cleveland? Which is it today?

You are now free to post that you do no such thing...lol.

[bloodyminded]

Portraying Gaza as a typical place on the planet when it suits...or a war torn Hell hole...also when it suits.

Is it Leningrad or Cleveland? Which is it today?

You are now free to post that you do no such thing...lol.

So...you can't find any of my supposed "apologies for Hamas."

Meaning you made it up.

Of course, I already knew that; I was wondering if you were even aware of your own need to continually spout lies.

Edited September 29, 2010 by bloodyminded

[DogOnPorch]

So...you can't find any of my supposed "apologies for Hamas."

Meaning you made it up.

Of course, I already knew that; I was wondering if you were even aware of your own need to continually spout lies.

Actually, I can't be bothered to search through your endless posts. Can we say boring? Suffice to say that I view your relativism as apologizing for Hamas. This whole 'we are no better than murderous dictators' crap that you spew-out in a regular fashion.

Fact is: Gaza is portrayed by certain posters here as the greatest crime against humanity ever. Akin to Treblinka or some other similar horrific place/event. Yet there are numerous nagging problems with this that get in the way of the fantasy. Five star nightclubs being but one. So, here I now have you claiming every war zone has rich folks with 5 star accommodations. Yeah...right.

As for your opinions: I have long ago figured-out that I can say that the sky is blue only for you to pipe-up that it is SKY BLUE in colour and I have no understanding of the colour blue.

[bloodyminded]

Actually, I can't be bothered to search through your endless posts. Can we say boring? Suffice to say that I view your relativism as apologizing for Hamas.

You said the fact that I was "apologizing for Hamas" was "noted" (by illiterates, presumably).

Now you concede you don't know what you're talking about. You lose. Again.

Having trouble following your own train of logic?

So, here I now have you claiming every war zone has rich folks with 5 star accommodations. Yeah...right.

There are luxuries and rich people in every region of the world. As you know...despite your desperation here to hold onto a debating point you've already lost.

Edited October 5, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Bonam]

There are luxuries and rich people in every region of the world.

While I understand your point, this is not technically true. I have not heard many accounts of rich individuals dining in luxury during the siege of Leningrad, nor of wealthy Jews enjoying a grand time in Auschwitz, nor of rich prisoners dining on seven course feasts in a prison. When conditions are bad enough, no semblance of civilization which can give rise to meaningful wealth is possible. While the fact that some Gazans enjoy amenities like this resort and that many Gazans are obese does not show that Gazans are not in poverty, it does show that their conditions are not comparable to the kinds of situations to which they are routinely compared by some of Israel's more extreme critics: genocide, extermination, ethnic cleansing, an open-air prison, etc. People do not build resorts while they are being systematically starved and exterminated.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Bonam

[jbg]

According to you, the existence of any wealth or luxury means that the rest of the inhabitants don't live in poverty.

If Gaza's wealthy can logistically live the good life why do we need to countenance "ships of fools" to run the Israeli blockade?

[bloodyminded]

If Gaza's wealthy can logistically live the good life why do we need to countenance "ships of fools" to run the Israeli blockade?

So you're opposed to the aid to Haiti?

[bloodyminded]

While I understand your point, this is not technically true. I have not heard many accounts of rich individuals dining in luxury during the siege of Leningrad, nor of wealthy Jews enjoying a grand time in Auschwitz, nor of rich prisoners dining on seven course feasts in a prison. When conditions are bad enough, no semblance of civilization which can give rise to meaningful wealth is possible. While the fact that some Gazans enjoy amenities like this resort and that many Gazans are obese does not show that Gazans are not in poverty, it does show that their conditions are not comparable to the kinds of situations to which they are routinely compared by some of Israel's more extreme critics: genocide, extermination, ethnic cleansing, an open-air prison, etc. People do not build resorts while they are being systematically starved and exterminated.

My original example was Haiti. It is the poorest nation in the hemisphere.

And anyone who believs there are no rich people living there is simply, flatly, ignorant.

As for the "kinds of situaitons to which they are routinely compared by some of Israel's harshest critics"...what, exactly, does this have to do with me? I have made no such claims.

This sort of broad-brush, shotgun-blast-in-the-dark debating mentality is exceedingly irritating...no wonder such beacons of intelligence like DogonPorch and bush_cheney2004 have accused me of anti-semitism; or why DoP continues (including in this thread) to accuse me of "Apologizing for Hamas," another little thing I've not once done.

Perhaps all conservatives on this board are to be deemed identical twins to our right-wing lunatic, Lictor.

I'm not comfortable with the formulation, but it would appear that DoP, Shady--and yourself--are insisting that this is sensible debating methodology.

Edited October 5, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Shwa]

M<y original example was Haiti. It is the poorest nation in the hemisphere.

And anyone who believs there are no rich people living there is simply, flatly, ignorant.

As for the "kinds of situaitons to which they are routinely compared by some of Israel's harshest critics"...what, exactly, does this have to do with me? I have made no such claims.

This sort of broad-brush, shotgun-blast-in-the-dark debating mentality is exceedingly irritating...no wonder such beacons of intelligence like DogonPorch and bush_cheney2004 have accused me of anti-semitism; or why DoP continues (including in this thread) to accuse me of "Apologizing for Hamas," another little thing I've not once done.

Perhaps all conservatives on this board are to be deemed identical twins to our right-wing lunatic, Lictor.

I'm not comfortable with the formulation, but it would appear that DoP, Shady--and yourself--are insisting that this is sensible debating metodology.

I dunno about that. I mean one of them could be lictard, but I highly doubt it.

However, the problem seems to be the understanding of metaphor (or simile). For example, for those that say Israeli actions are LIKE the genocide perpetrated during the Second World War others will counterpoint with the illustration that there are no concentration camps or that there are resorts in that particular region. So if you were to say that the Israeli actions are LIKE the genocide perpetrated on the Indians during the Manifest Destiny years in the US, they will counter with the fact that there are no horses and feathers involved in the Gaza.

Whereas the origial intent is more to specify that "these actions" are LIKE genocide. As IF genocidal actions retain the same form in all regions of the world through all of history. The problem being that genocide comes in many forms, under many guises and under the imposition of different timeframes.

[bloodyminded]

I dunno about that. I mean one of them could be lictard, but I highly doubt it.

No, I don't think that's the case at all. My point is that, to these fellows, there is some baleful entity called "the left," which holds exactly every opinion in concert. Therefore, since (or so is the claim) somebody here once expressed support for Hamas...it logically follows that I personally also support Hamas. There are no distinctions, no discrete differences among "leftist" opinion.

So it would appear that they all agree precisely with Lictor on every point.

This is their formulation, not mine.

[Bonam]

This sort of broad-brush, shotgun-blast-in-the-dark debating mentality is exceedingly irritating...no wonder such beacons of intelligence like DogonPorch and bush_cheney2004 have accused me of anti-semitism; or why DoP continues (including in this thread) to accuse me of "Apologizing for Hamas," another little thing I've not once done.

Perhaps all conservatives on this board are to be deemed identical twins to our right-wing lunatic, Lictor.

I'm not comfortable with the formulation, but it would appear that DoP, Shady--and yourself--are insisting that this is sensible debating methodology.

No, I do not consider this to be a "sensible debating methodology". I definitely see and recognize the differences in the positions and debating tactics of various posters, including those I disagree with. This is why I respond to certain posters, but rarely bother responding to others. You might note that my prior post did not attribute any statements to you that you did not make. What I did do was explain why the existence of the kinds of facilities that DogOnPorch mentioned cast doubt on claims of Gaza being a case of "genocide" or an "open-air prison". I do not doubt that Gaza is a relatively poor region, obviously it is, since the people of the area have done very little to attempt to achieve economic prosperity. I also do not think that the blame for Gaza's poverty lies entirely, or even primarily, at Israel's feet. Gaza was poor long before the blockade, long before 1967, long before 1948, and it will still be poor long after the blockade is ended, and probably long after a Palestinian state is established.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Bonam

[jbg]

Here's an article that provides a different perspective on Israeli/Arab relations. Perhaps it's terms like Israeli/Arab that imply some sort of equivalence....but in fact, nothing could be further from the truth:

The reverse disparity between Israelis and Arabs is the tremendous human achievement of the former as free people, and the contrast when measured against the sullen reality of the Arab world just about at the bottom of the UN human development index despite the resources available.

But here, too, Arabs, Muslims and their apologists in the West will fault Israelis for the collective failure of the Arab world.

Link: http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/salim_mansur/2010/08/20/15091106.html

It seems it's easier to create terror, war and bloodshed than to work collaboratively for the benefit of all. Yet when the Arabs don't get their way they now scream to politically correct forces in the West. Why so many sympathize I don't know, unless people haven't gotten used to the idea that maybe Jews deserve "self-determination".

Arabs ARE the sundergod underdog. Israel won a war against a lot of those countries in 6 days. They also have nuclear weapons and the unconditional military and diplomatic backing of a world super power that has nuclear fleats and hundreds of thousands of troops in the region.

Back to the Opening Post topic.

It seems as if the pattern of Arabs' playing "victim" is an old one. I stumbled across this November 13, 1938 New York Times article (link, excerpts below):

PALESTINE CASE IS REOPENED

British Have a Difficult Task to Adjust the

Rival Claims of the Jews and Arabs

By HAROLD CALLENDER

Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES

LONDON, Nov. 12.-While the Nazis this week were staging the most furious of a long series of pogroms, which will add tens of thousands to the stream of dispossessed refugees that Germany is casting upon other countries, publication in London of the latest report on Palestine showed the whole question of a Jewish national home there was again in the melting pot.

One elaborate blue book has canceled out another. The Woodhead Commission has killed the partition

scheme of the Peel commission. The British Government, which had adopted the plan for separate States in Palestine, now rejects it, purposing to administer the mandate of the whole territory pending a general conference of Jews, Arabs and British. Thus the whole issue is back where it was before the Royal Commission studied it last year. Jews driven from Germany do not yet know to what extent they will be permitted to live in Palestine, where the Arabs forcibly are resisting their influx.

**********

Work of the Jews

In Palestine Jews have created a modern community in a backward land, thus raising the standard of life for themselves as well as for Arabs, who now live far better than their fathers did.

But some Arabs bitterly resent this achievement, which hurts their pride, so they rebel all the more furiously because it is against what seems a more competent and more advanced race, particularly since it is backed by foreign capital provided by Jews in Europe and America.

It seems that the Arabs have trouble accepting the desireability of working collaboratively with others. It's easier to kill and maim, and then scream for aid when the violence chases away productive economic activity. Jihad and war does not beget accomplishment.

Israel, on the other hand.....

Edited October 6, 2010 by jbg

[RNG]

For about 40 years now, I have said that the Israelis are completely wrong and that the Palestinians are completely wrong. And nothing in the intervening years has caused me to doubt my opinion.

[bloodyminded]

No, I do not consider this to be a "sensible debating methodology". I definitely see and recognize the differences in the positions and debating tactics of various posters, including those I disagree with. This is why I respond to certain posters, but rarely bother responding to others. You might note that my prior post did not attribute any statements to you that you did not make. What I did do was explain why the existence of the kinds of facilities that DogOnPorch mentioned cast doubt on claims of Gaza being a case of "genocide" or an "open-air prison".

But DogonPorch wasn't speaking in some general sense, nor indicating disagreement with people who might make such claims about Gaza.

He was attributing certain opinions to me, specifically.

I am not some spokesperson for something called "the left"; and when posters like DogonPorch accuse me of "apologizing for Hamas," when I have done nothing of the sort (ever; in any capacity) I'm certainly not going to agree with him, or "see his point"...because he has no point.

What is most remarkable about his "you're a terrorist-supporter" frothings is that he, objectively, is a terrorist-supporter. So long as the terrorism in question is supported or sanctioned by the noble and freedom-loving Western powers.

This is a common stance, unfortunately. JBG has similarly defended such things, when backed into a corner. It would appear, for some of our resident right-wingers who pretend to oppose terrorism, that they don't oppose it on principle; they oppose it in a thoroughly partisan sense only.

To sum up: I oppose terrorism; they do not.

Which rather changes the paradigm of these discussions, I should think.

Edited October 6, 2010 by bloodyminded

[DogOnPorch]

If Gaza's wealthy can logistically live the good life why do we need to countenance "ships of fools" to run the Israeli blockade?

Ship of Fools...lol. Irony.