CONSERVATIVES DON'T FORGET HARRIS AND MULRONEY

[willy]

We are paying MUCH MORE under Campbell; premium and share of prescription costs were increased dramatically.

How much tax increases and where are the cuts (in actual budget not redistribution of assets)? You say dramatically and I say prove it.

As for the physicians raise, learn a little more about our current health system and you will see that physicians did not come out that much ahead.

GP's have been under pressure by the raising cost of equipment and administration. They mostly work out of their privately run clinics. So when GP's get more money, we get new equipment and staff that are adequately paid to do the appointments and billings.

The health spending in BC is 40% of the provincial budget. What should we be spending? They spent $13 billion this year. 10 years ago that same budget was $5 billion.

As for pressure and cuts, it is health care and education that have increased in expenses and they are putting pressure on other areas of the government.

The BC Liberals did do a one time $2 billion tax cut. They also added user fees and yes taxed smokers (health tax). Put these things in context and it is a small portion of the overall picture. Net loss in revenue was around $1 billion annually in direct tax losses.

BC this year is out pacing the rest of the country in economic growth. The health system has been restructured (new health regions and management plan) and will be improving in the coming years. This was a big job and it takes time to see impacts. An example of how big our health system Vancouver Coastal Health Authority has 20 000 employees. This is the largest employer in the region. When you create these large organizations it takes time and money to move them into high performance machines.

BC rail was sold to CN on a 99 year lease (not a US company).

BC Ferries are owned by the province but run by a private entity, like the airport. This worked well at the airport and they used the same model. Yes the CEO is an American and he is responsible to a board of directors make up of a bunch of BC residents and Canadian citizens.

BChydro has not privatized anything, they outsourced some human resources functions. Many major public and private companies do this. Accenture that now runs that service is very good and efficient. Generation, transmission and distribution of power are still a crown corporation that pay dividends to the province.

caesar, use facts in arguments and attach some back up. People on this board for the most part are bright and rhetoric is just annoying. I apologize to all those out east for the BC politics but as a mature individual I can say that he started it.

[Bryant]

I'm a Father with children in Ontario and i do know this recently having to take 2 children to the hospital we got excellent fast prompt service-for a cast for a broken arm in and out in an hour and a half--my daughter with a broken leg--2hours casted in and out--when the tories were in government--all day for my sprained foot,and just to be checked out for stomach problem almost all day--i was there at 9 in the morning till 3:30 pm-just to get a prescription-under Ernie eves tory Regime--Health Care definetly got better in Ontario....

[willy]

Bryant, good example but what do you think changed in under a year that would have changed that circumstance.

The answer is nothing. You received care from basically the same system. Maybe you got lucky and came in at a slow time or a slow day. Lower priority the longer the wait, a child with a broken limb would be seen before an adult waiting for a prescription.

The Ontario Liberals are spending more money but that wont impact the actual system for another year. The question is without any real change will that be sustainable in the long run.

Only two other countries in the world have the same health system we do.

North Korea

Cuba

Any idea to why we are not having are real debate on health care delivery or as Canadians do we believe North Korea to be a model for health care.

[Bryant]

In this Federal Race we have many former Harris-Eves Tory Hacks-- running for these new Alliance Conservatives like the Old Chief Ontario Tory Government Whip Doug Galt and Tony Clement-and Dave Johnson-their Roles greatly added to their Humiliating Record Defeat in Ontario.....

[Bryant]

Hot off the Comtex Newswire-An American Think Says Harper is Going to Increase Tuition Fees to Saddle Students with more of a Debt Burden than they already have--I know many friends of mine already owe $55,000 dollars only to find themselves working at a $10.dollar an hour job--how will they ever pay that back and get ahead--another friend i know owes $45,000 dollars and many others that can't get decent jobs--Harpers the same old Tory Story--Nothing new here--the Think Tank says --Harper will use Bush Style Tax Cuts--Just like Harris and Eves did-it was a Flop!!!In fact Harris was the most Hated Premier ever in Ontario-The National Post and this Think Tank say he"s Pro Business!!!--Read the Articles.....

[Bryant]

I know a snowbird who went down to Florida some years ago and had a major heart attack--the bill for his care was $75,000.dollars US--when he finally got back,he was going to lose his house because he had to put it up to pay for his health care--until the Ontario Government payed the bill--So you want US style Health Care Buddy-You better never get sick then under that system and Hope your never put in that situation--unless your filthy rich--So much for US Health Care--I got many US friends who hate it!!!What a Model for health care.....

[Argus]

I'm a Father with children in Ontario and i do know this recently having to take 2 children to the hospital we got excellent fast prompt service-for a cast for a broken arm in and out in an hour and a half--my daughter with a broken leg--2hours casted in and out--when the tories were in government--all day for my sprained foot,and just to be checked out for stomach problem almost all day--

I was in the hospital with my father about six weeks ago with a broken arm. We got in about 11 in the morning and he didn't get to see a doctor until 5. So don't give me any crap about the system changing in a year. You just hit it on a bad day last year and a couple of good ones this year.

[Argus]

In this Federal Race we have many former Harris-Eves Tory Hacks-- running for these new Alliance Conservatives like the Old Chief Ontario Tory Government Whip Doug Galt and Tony Clement-and Dave Johnson-their Roles greatly added to their Humiliating Record Defeat in Ontario.....

The Harris and Eves Tories continually increased health care spending while in office. The Martin Liberals repeatedly slashed health care transfer payments to the provinces. So just where do you get the idea that the federal Tories are somehow to blame for health problems but not the federal Liberals who actually caused them?

[Argus]

--Harper will use Bush Style Tax Cuts--Just like Harris and Eves did-it was a Flop!!!In fact Harris was the most Hated Premier ever in Ontario-The National Post and this Think Tank say he"s Pro Business!!!--Read the Articles.....

Uhm, the tax cuts were not a flop. Ontario had no economic problems until the last year, with SARS, Mad Cow, the blackout, and Eves paying money to the govenrment unions to keep them quiet during an upcoming election.

As for the most hated premier in Ontario, I think his name is Dalton McGuinty.

Oh, and when did being "pro business" become a bad thing? You want a government that is anti business?

[Argus]

--So you want US style Health Care Buddy-You better never get sick then under that system and Hope your never put in that situation--unless your filthy rich--So much for US Health Care--I got many US friends who hate it!!!What a Model for health care.....

Please learn to quote so we know who you're talking to.

Now, exactly WHO has suggested we have "US style" health care? I'd like some kind of quote please.

Or are you just arguing with your own hand puppet?

[willy]

Argus, I think he was referring to me.

To answer, I would say that I don't advocate for a system like that in the US, but we have another 160 systems in the world to learn from.

Try Germany, they have universally paid for health insurance and a mix of private and public delivery. No wait times.

I would advocate for a system that works today and will be around during the aging bubble that will shoot the costs of health care though the roof. People between 60 - 80 years old are very expensive. They will need care and we need to figure out how to do that. We need real change and not just increased budgets to do the responsible and moral thing and take care of the most venerable.

As for tax cuts, our federal government is running large surpluses that should go to funding services, paying down debt, and moderate tax cuts for low and middle income earners.

[daniel]

Hey, Argus:

The Tories laid off a whole bunch of nurses and told them to go the way of the hula-hoop. Later, they started hiring them back but not enough so the result was an overextended system when SARs broke out.

Ever wonder why it got so bad in Toronto but not in Vancouver?

As for your claim that Dalton is the most hated Premier, I assume you are referring to the tax increases in the budget. Well, if you have to restore funding to something that was cut by 50%, the increase is 100%. Simple math. What do you expect him to do the restore the damage done by the Tories accounting for the extra $5.6billion deficit left behind.

Plus Harris promised to end corporate welfare too.

[Argus]

As for your claim that Dalton is the most hated Premier,  I assume you are referring to the tax increases in the budget.  Well, if you have to restore funding to something that was cut by 50%, the increase is 100%.  Simple math.  What do you expect him to do the restore the damage done by the Tories accounting for the extra $5.6billion deficit left behind.

Do you have any evidence that the Tories cut health care? Because my information is to the contrary. The Tories increased funding for health care by a substantial amount while in office. The Liberals, however, slashed transfer payments for health care repeatedly. As for the alleged $5.6b deficit, it was less than half of that, and I believe the deficit they inherited was well over $10b.

McGuinty is now working on a 9% approval rating, less than Mulroney's was at the worst point of his term.

[Bryant]

No we want a Prime minister like Paul Martin who is both-He increased a lot of Great Programs financing like the Child Tax Credit while still being a Business friendly Prime Minster--We need a Man of Compassion and understanding a man of Capacity and Harpers not that man or the Alliance-Conservative Party-they have a Western Agenda--check it out read their Policies-Read their Party Candidates Ideas I have-Not good for the Country as a whole--Just for the western Provinces!

[Kiraly]

Is it not against board rules to post under a number of different user names?

[daniel]

Do you have any evidence that the Tories cut health care? Because my information is to the contrary. The Tories increased funding for health care by a substantial amount while in office. The Liberals, however, slashed transfer payments for health care repeatedly. As for the alleged $5.6b deficit, it was less than half of that, and I believe the deficit they inherited was well over $10b.

McGuinty is now working on a 9% approval rating, less than Mulroney's was at the worst point of his term.

From http://www.tokyotightwad.com/blueprintdebunking.html

"According to the Ontario Health Coalition (OHC), "[w]hen you consider population growth, aging, and inflation, real health care spending in Ontario has remained flat since the Conservative government came to power." I am frankly amazed that it would increase considering all the hospitals the Tories shut down in their first term. The OHC also says, "In fact, provincial health care spending has actually shrunk as a percentage of the provincial economy (from 5.7% of the economy before Harris in 1994-5 to 5.3% in 2000-01). It has also shrunk as a proportion of provincial revenues (from 38.2% in 1994-5 to 35.1% in 2000-2001) - despite massive tax cuts. " So much for the increases. The 20% guarantee is in question now (Sept. 2001) as the Tories now say that spending is out of control.

As far as the "politically risky action," I guess they are refering to when they laid off about 10000 nurses then hired them back again with federal funds. "

But I guess you'll likely brush this off as left wing ranting without any basis of reality. The moon landings were a hoax, eh? Not even the RightWing Fraser Institute states the deficit being only $1.6billion.

As far as the $10billion deficit,

1) like it or not we all knew the NDP was going to spend their way out of a recession didn't we? So there's nothing surprising about that.

2) the the NDP inherited the recession from Brian Mulroney - the predicted results of the FTA.

3) not only did Harris inherit the $10billion deficit from the NDP, he also inherited a booming economy.

4) All those Tory good-news budgets to balance the budget resulted in a deficit-surprise, surprise. Blame it on Sars or whatever. It just proves cutting budgets to their bare-bones does not allow flexibility in times of emergencies. And there were lots of emergencies during the Tory rein: Aylmer Meat Packing, Walkerton, crises in the schools, etc.

I guess you were asleep at the time.

[Argus]

Do you have any evidence that the Tories cut health care? Because my information is to the contrary. The Tories increased funding for health care by a substantial amount while in office. The Liberals, however, slashed transfer payments for health care repeatedly. As for the alleged $5.6b deficit, it was less than half of that, and I believe the deficit they inherited was well over $10b.

McGuinty is now working on a 9% approval rating, less than Mulroney's was at the worst point of his term.

From http://www.tokyotightwad.com/blueprintdebunking.html

"According to the Ontario Health Coalition (OHC), "[w]hen you consider population growth, aging, and inflation, real health care spending in Ontario has remained flat since the Conservative government came to power." I am frankly amazed that it would increase considering all the hospitals the Tories shut down in their first term.

So you admit it increased? Good. Then suppose you tell me why I should blame them instead of blaming a guy called Paul Martin who slashed spending on health by many billions and never returned it. You can use all the weasel words you want to show how the Tories should have increased funding even more than they did, but as it stands it went from about 32% of program spending to about 43% at a time the federal government was slashing spending on health.

And you want me to vote for the guy who was actually cutting health care funding?

[Bryant]

Ya when they were forced to by Public Outcry and were getting closer to re-relection-check the Fraser Institute Report--Nice Try though!!!Because Harris and Eves could have made cuts elsewhere but chose Health Care cuts!!!--They didn't cut Corporate Wellfare to their friends like Magna!!!

[takeanumber]

Alberta Conservatives are worse for pork and media censorship than any other province.

Harper is like Klein.

If you like Klein, you'll love Harper.

[caesar]

Gordon Campbell is a great candidate for most hated premier. His party calls themselves "Liberals" but are really conservatives and old Social Creditors; there just wasn't any viable party of that name to hijack the leadership of.

He has closed hospitals cut routine eye exams, chiropractor, and physiotherapy as covered medical expenses. He has raised premiums for Health Care and increased seniors co payments for prescription services.

(ours by 1400 and we are just receieving a decent company pension; certainly not wealthy.

Hospital workers were dismissed and replaced by low paid contract workers. (Would BC now be able to survive a SARS incident) Others were forced to take a 14% cut in wages.

Our waiting lists of course have grown; private clinics are operating. You pay for using the clinic; not the actual procedure. We don't scream too loudly; as although we have to pay for our medical services; it is either that or wait until it is too late. A two tier medical system is a reality here. Fair? No but better than dying. Where has the money saved gone; Large raises to doctors that I believe averaged about 50thousand per year; nurses are well paid and management just recieved an 18% increase. The rich get richer and the poor get nothing.

Seniors get blamed for all the increasing costs. Why does EVERY pregnant woman now need a sonogram? Younger people seem to run to the doctor with every sniff and cough. prescriptions for HIV drugs are extremely high.