So it seems Ontario ER waits are improving....

[Smallc]

They aren't cutting out only the worst when they say 4/5.

[Argus]

They aren't cutting out only the worst when they say 4/5.

When they say four out of five patients are served within 5hrs they are quite clearly exempting 20% of patients. On what other basis but length of time do you believe they are cutting those people out of the stats?

[guyser]

Name these hospitals.

Huntsville Hospital for one.

The Sault is another.

Royal Vic in Barrie

Niagara on the Lake Hospital

Uxbridge Cottage Hospital.......

[Smallc]

When they say four out of five patients are served within 5hrs they are quite clearly exempting 20% of patients. On what other basis but length of time do you believe they are cutting those people out of the stats?

They are excluding outliers on both ends.

[guyser]

The myth that people go in for unimportant things is ludicrous on the face of it, unless you think people enjoy spending hours in an ER waiting room.

It is not entirely a myth,but if we were to reduce , even by 10% , unnecessary visits to an ER things would improve.

And by the way, cutting off the worst 20% in order to make your wait times sound better is about as phony an example of statistical honesty as I've seen. And here I thought Liberals were so dedicated to honest and complete statistics.

I have no idea where this comes from.

[Michael Hardner]

Name these hospitals.

Better yet - ask this person to point to a report that shows the wait time to be near zero.

How about a report that shows wait times from August of this year, compared to July of this year for a few hospitals in the same region ?

[Michael Hardner]

The original quote was:

My experience in Ontario has been that there is often little or no waiting time when it's a matter needing immediate treatment.

Argus asked for examples...

Huntsville Hospital for one.

From the Ontario Wait Times site:

Minor conditions: 4.1 hours

Complex conditions: 8.3 hours

Mitigating factors: listed as "9/10 cases", so actual average times are likely higher, times are listed for July with no comparative data available, and none of this is independently corroborated.

http://edrs.waittimes.net/En/Data.aspx?LHIN=12&city=&pc=&dist=0&hosptID=0&str=&view=0&period=0&expand=0

The Sault is another.

Minor conditions: 4.0 hours

Complex conditions: 8.8 hours

Mitigating factors: listed as "9/10 cases", so actual average times are likely higher, times are listed for July with no comparative data available, and none of this is independently corroborated.

Royal Vic in Barrie

Minor conditions: 5.2 hours

Complex conditions: 11.8 hours

Mitigating factors: listed as "9/10 cases", so actual average times are likely higher, times are listed for July with no comparative data available, and none of this is independently corroborated.

Niagara on the Lake Hospital

This is the really scary one:

Minor conditions: NS = No service information available:

Complex conditions: NS = No service information available:

Mitigating factors: listed as "9/10 cases", so actual average times are likely higher, times are listed for July with no comparative data available, and none of this is independently corroborated.

Uxbridge Cottage Hospital.......

I couldn't find that listed.

[Michael Hardner]

They are excluding outliers on both ends.

What is your basis for that ?

[Smallc]

What is your basis for that ?

Because that's how averaging is always done when it doesn't include the entire data set. Anyway, the "waiting times" are not really waiting times at all. They are times from entry to discharge.

[Michael Hardner]

Because that's how averaging is always done when it doesn't include the entire data set. Anyway, the "waiting times" are not really waiting times at all. They are times from entry to discharge.

It's still pretty bad, in my opinion. I would hope to be released in a shorter time than 4 hours after I arrive.

[Smallc]

It's still pretty bad, in my opinion. I would hope to be released in a shorter time than 4 hours after I arrive.

With a minor condition, that isn't at all unreasonable. With a major condition, that's out of the question.

[wyly]

It's still pretty bad, in my opinion. I would hope to be released in a shorter time than 4 hours after I arrive.

but if you expect ot be released the same day an ER is not where you should have been seen, ER's are for critical matters...you should have had the first option of being seen in a walkin clinic...

before I moved to where I am now there was a neighbourhood walkin clinic where the longest I ever waited was 1 1/2hr and it was very busy that night...the few times I was sent on to a ER I/we were immediately helped in the ER as the clinic had already given the heads up to the ER I/we were coming in, so it was serious...

[wyly]

With a minor condition, that isn't at all unreasonable. With a major condition, that's out of the question.

if it was major he would have been admitted...generally if you can walkin to an ER you're likely not major and you'll be triaged, come in in the back of a ambulance and you're seen immediately...

I think it's unreasonable of people to think they can just show up at a hospital and expect everyone to drop what they're doing and help you...really, try show up at your MD's office without an appointment and see if you get in right away, if your really really in dire straits you should be in the back of an ambulance...

[Smallc]

if it was major he would have been admitted...

Eventually, yes, but often you are kept in the ED for observation. The ED (other than when there is an ICU present) is the most well equipped part of the hospital. Often, you will be kept in there for longer if you have a serious condition, or, like I said, for observation.

[guyser]

The original quote was:

My experience in Ontario has been that there is often little or no waiting time when it's a matter needing immediate treatment.

Argus asked for examples...

MH I did have to go back and see that quote, and perhaps I did mis-read what he was asking .

Mitigating factors: listed as "9/10 cases", so actual average times are likely higher, times are listed for July with no comparative data available, and none of this is independently corroborated.

Minor conditions: 5.2 hours

Complex conditions: 11.8 hours

July figures? Should be noted the population doubles (if not triples)during July. 5 hours is amazing if thats the case. Huntsville is strained though. Some bad mngmt, dollars being ripped from them and so on. But all in all, not a bad place. I have had , on three occasions , damn good service there. Last visit, August of 2008, in and out in 90 minutes....yea I know, anecdotal plus it was 5am when I went in.

[wyly]

Eventually, yes, but often you are kept in the ED for observation. The ED (other than when there is an ICU present) is the most well equipped part of the hospital. Often, you will be kept in there for longer if you have a serious condition, or, like I said, for observation.

could be, but it seems he was annoyed at having spent 4 hrs before he was sent home, to me that sounds as if he knew he wasn't expecting to be admitted, so it wasn't major...

if I go to the ER now it's because there is no walk-in clinic handy or it's closed for the day, otherwise I go to the ER only if it's very serious and I don't expect to be discharged...

[wyly]

July figures? Should be noted the population doubles (if not triples)during July. 5 hours is amazing if thats the case. Huntsville is strained though. Some bad mngmt, dollars being ripped from them and so on. But all in all, not a bad place. I have had , on three occasions , damn good service there. Last visit, August of 2008, in and out in 90 minutes....yea I know, anecdotal plus it was 5am when I went in.

there's that too, luck...I took my wife to the ER on a Monday night 11pm and it was standing room only, there were people laying on the floors waiting to be seen...I was there again with her two days later at 1pm and there was no one in the waiting room, zero wait time...I suspect because in the middle of the day people are seeing their own MD's or going to walk-in clinics...and again with one daughter like you in the early hours 3-4am, wait time was 60-90 minutes...

[guyser]

otherwise I go to the ER only if it's very serious and I don't expect to be discharged...

You'll sit on the couch with a broken arm until it becomes gangrenous and serious?

You must be pretty tough.

[wyly]

You'll sit on the couch with a broken arm until it becomes gangrenous and serious?

You must be pretty tough.

actually I am very tough...broken toes, broken face(orbits), torn ACL ligaments three times, ankle ligaments too many to remember, and I stayed home until it was absolutely necessary...

when it doesn't stop bleeding , when pieces are hanging off or when parts are beginning to smell bad I'll go to the walk-in if it's open the ER if not...

[Michael Hardner]

With a minor condition, that isn't at all unreasonable. With a major condition, that's out of the question.

I think it's too long. I don't want to wait that long to be seen for something, that's all.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm glad we're talking about this. I would like to point out that one hospital not having stats is inexcusable and also that the government makes a poor effort to show long-term results, or to have independent verification of numbers.

[Smallc]

I think it's too long. I don't want to wait that long to be seen for something, that's all.

An as I already pointed out, the time listed isn't the actual wait to see someone.

[Michael Hardner]

An as I already pointed out, the time listed isn't the actual wait to see someone.

Right-o. The province itself calls it the 'Wait Times' reports, so I was confused by that from the start.

2 hours sounds fantastic. 3 hours sounds acceptable. 4 hours... on average... not that great.

At the least, they should be aiming to improve service levels and reduce costs over time. Why ? Because that's how the world works, at least in the private sector. There's no invisible hand at play with a single provider, so we need to make noise and watch how things are delivered - very closely.

[Topaz]

Sorry - what statistics are we quoting here ?

I have long been posting on this topic and - correct me if I'm wrong - but isn't this the source of the claim that waits are improving:

That is - the Minister at her own PR event saying the system works ? Sorry, but that's worse than Wild Bill's claim. She has a vested interest in quoting some small improvement somewhere, and as I have already well documented the data on Ontario Wait Times and costs is tightly controlled, and even when released hasn't been that good.

McGuinty gets a big FAIL on this topic, and anybody who defends this government on this topic is an unknowing enemy of public health care, in my books, because you would rather defend a poorly managed socialized system against attacks than criticize it to make it better. The real data was the emergency cancer care wait time that was reported earlier this year (sporadically) and shown to be inadequate.

Where were the headlines ?

If you want Socialized medicine, as I do, then criticize it when it doesn't work rather than saying "it's better than the American system". Because if that's your defense, you're guaranteeing that it will only get worse until the American system is better.

Michael, if you think McGuinty has failed healthcare, what's your thoughts on what Harris did to healthcare.

[Smallc]

Cost doesn't decrease overall over time anywhere, whether we're talking private or public. You can decrease costs for a while or in some areas, but overtime, you can't escape inflation, especially while you're trying to increase the level of service.