Tories and Affirmative Action

[Argus]

Some would disagree, and while I don't like affirmative action, there is a compelling argument to be made that in a society where certain groups have been the victims of long-standing and systemic prejudices, you can't just say "You're free!" and expect everything to work. One of the chief reasons that the Jim Crow laws even existed in the first place was because, after Lincoln's assassination

I hate to point this out to you, Bubba, but none of that happened in this country.

[capricorn]

Hold everything. Harper will not be throwing red meat at his supporters over affirmative action. Just now on Power and Politics, Stockwell Day said the federal hiring practices are working well and no changes to the present system will be made.

Now back to the census issue....

[Argus]

We had segregated beaches in Toronto into the '40's.

We had the Africville razing.

We have the residential school issue.The apology does'nt change the damage that was done.

I have seen photo's of the Ku Klux Klan marching in large numbers through the streets of Hamilton in the 1930's.

Oh sob, sob, sob sob. Let me give you a clue here. In 1971, just after immigration was liberalized, there were a grand total of 34,000 blacks in all of Canada. There are now some 785,000 blacks in Canada. In your earnest, frantic need to make it up to those poor blacks of 1971 you are putting in place programs designed to aid people who were not even in this country when the situation you talk about existed. Nor were their parents, nor grandparents, nor great grandparents. More than 70% of all visible minority members are foreign born. Most of the rest are either aborigines or aren't even in the work force yet.

And guess what, there is no overt racism or discrimination. In fact, the federal government's massively expensive, complex, time-consuming and ineffecient HR system is largely designed, not with getting good employees, but with ensuring fairness in hiring and promotion.

[Argus]

Absolutely incorrect! Are you a racist?

He's right. Your positions on natives is avowedly racist.

[Shwa]

What drivel. One could perhaps make a case that on a native reserve with a unique culture, one would prefer a police officer who had insight into that culture. To my mind, skin pigmentation does not give insight into anything. But even accepting the possible usefulness of a native police officer on a native reservation that does not even suggest that there is value or purpose to be had in hiring employees willy-nilly based on skin colour just for the offhand chance that a member of that cultural background might show up and might feel more "included" because of it.

Once one can perhaps make a case, the the thin edge of the wedge is in. Once this happens, it is a matter of degree. And once one makes a case for "a native" one also makes a similar case for visible minorities as a whole. So it doesn't matter whether a visible minority with African parentage is serving a visible minority with East Asian parentage, they are both visible minorities. Off-hand chances not required. Remember Argus, it is the "visible minorities" that are the disadvantaged group here, not particular ethnicities.

Unless you can specifically target the ethnic person you hire to an ethnic clientelle it serves zero purpose. How is hiring a Nigerian to man your desk going to reassure and comfort Chinese and Honduran and Sri Lankan clients?

Because under our laws, they are considered visible minorities. Ethnicity is not a specified a factor when considering visible minorities generally.

Especially when they have to try and communicate with them in English - which is not their best language - and he has to try to communicate back in English - which is not HIS. In what way could it possibly be said to improve service, especially given you are deliberately hiring less qualified individuals to provide that service? Are you suggesting that a black man will feel better being served by a less competent black man hired simply because he has black skin?

What about all the visible minorities that are Canadian born or 1.5th generation and have language skills? It appears you are making a hasty generalization here. Anecdotal maybe, but in my experience with several levels of government across the country, by and large the language skills of visible minorities are no different than any others.

"I dunno how dat works, bro, but I be a black man jus like you! So we be happy, yes!?"

"Uh, sure bro. Now could you go find me a white guy who does know how it works?"

That's pretty filthy, even for you Argus.

Of course, not one single time did any of them ever ask the public whether they thought it was a good idea.

LOL! Are you saying the Employment Equity Act didnt't go before Parliament - before the elected representatives of the people like other legislation? Damned back room politics!

This is barely understandable gibberish. I wonder what all you PC types would think if someone in government proposed hiring only whites in areas which were almost all white. I mean, if almost everyone who shows up at the counter at a given office is white, should we have rules in place that forbid hiring anyone other than white people - because they're more comforted when they find white people behind the counter?

You never know, maybe one day with the way Canada is become browner by the minute. Might even have to pass legislation that forbids discrimination against gingers and freckled folks.

Even the idea of hiring "ethnic" cops fails totally when you examine its guiding principal. If black police officers are better and more useful in working with a black population, well then, that means white police are better off for a white population, and if the great majority of your population is white and you can't control which race a police officer will be dealing with at any given time then you should be hiring only white police.

I wouldn't go as far as saying hiring "only" white, but would say hiring "mostly" white which is what they presently do anyways, so it all works out.

All of them knowing they aren't as good as white people, knowing they were only hired because of their skin colour, hired in spite of the fact that other people were better choices but passed over for them.

Maybe. But maybe they are as good as "white people" (or any other colour of people) and they go on to take advantage of internal training, organizational knowledge and staff experience and then become your boss. Or maybe they already have, who knows.

If they were pretty smart they wouldn't have needed someone to pluck them out of the back of the line and push them ahead of better people. No, these aren't pretty smart people. These are inferior people. You've already marked them that way, and that's all they'll ever be.

I haven't "marked" anyone, but you have. And that is OK, at least you are honest about your bigotry and that counts for something (the honesty I mean). No, the legislation is there to ameliorate the disadvantaged conditions of certain groups of people. One of the prime disadvantages of such groups is running into people like, well, you. (But those with some actual power.)

I wouldn't call it utterly alien. I would call it stupid and racist. And I would say only stupid racists support it.

Bonam called it "utterly alien" - are you calling him out as a racist?

[Shwa]

And guess what, there is no overt racism or discrimination. In fact, the federal government's massively expensive, complex, time-consuming and ineffecient HR system is largely designed, not with getting good employees, but with ensuring fairness in hiring and promotion.

Well you got hired and promoted so it all worked out for you. What are you complaining about?

[Argus]

Once one can perhaps make a case, the the thin edge of the wedge is in

Drivel.

Once this happens, it is a matter of degree.

EVERYTHING is a matter of degree.

And once one makes a case for "a native" one also makes a similar case for visible minorities as a whole.

Only if we put Somalians on a reserve somewhere.

So

it doesn't matter whether a visible minority with African parentage is serving a visible minority with East Asian parentage, they are both visible minorities.

What possible value is there in that?

Remember Argus, it is the "visible minorities" that are the disadvantaged group here, not particular ethnicities.

And yet, particular visible monirity groups are demonstrably NOT disadvantaged in any way, shape or form.

What about all the visible minorities that are Canadian born or 1.5th generation and have language skills? It appears you are making a hasty generalization here. Anecdotal maybe, but in my experience with several levels of government across the country, by and large the language skills of visible minorities are no different than any others.

I'm assuming English is not your first language or you'd never say something that laughably silly.

70% of all visible minority members are foreign born, which means their English, unless they came from and English speaking country, will necessarily be inferior.

That's pretty filthy, even for you Argus.

True though.

LOL! Are you saying the Employment Equity Act didnt't go before Parliament - before the elected representatives of the people like other legislation?

I'm saying that if they had ever asked the public to approve it they would not have gotten their approval. I'm saying no party ever made it a major issue - if they even ever put it into their election platform.

I haven't "marked" anyone, but you have.

You've said, "These people here, they're not smart enough or good enough to get jobs on their own, even in a perfectly unbiased system, so I have to pull them out and put them in front, giving them preferential hiring."

Bonam called it "utterly alien" - are you calling him out as a racist?

No, you.

[capricorn]

Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff came out swinging in favour of affirmative action Thursday, arguing against a government move to end race-based hiring policies.

Standing in one of Montreal's, and Canada's, most ethnically diverse neighbourhoods, Ignatieff applauded immigrants' work ethic.

"We believe in affirmative action," Ignatieff said in a speech to a multiethnic crowd.

"We believe each Canadian has the right to participate in the public service."

---

"Public-sector hiring should be based on merit but it should also be based on giving everybody an equal shot."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/liberal-leader-comes-out-swinging-on-affirmative-action-before-multiethnic-crowd-99114019.html

Well, looks like the Liberals and the Conservatives are, once again, on the same page of an issue.

And now for the expected scripted line of the Conservative far right agenda:

Arguing that the Tories have taken a hard-right turn in recent months, Ignatieff told his audience that Conservative policies seek to pit Canadians against each other.

"He's talking Canada backwards," Ignatieff said. "And we're going to say this right across the country."

Gee, Mr. Ignatieff, no one's gonna stop you from doing just that. Question. If the Conservatives throw "red meat" at their supporters, will you as Liberal leader throw "blue meat" at your supporters?

[capricorn]

Speaking of Ministers being responsive and accepting the advice of senior public servants.

The Liberal support for hiring based on racial quotas is at odds with what the party said during its time in power.

A 2005 memo from the top bureaucrat at the public works department said all hires from outside the department were to be from the designated groups.

The reaction from Scott Brison, the then Liberal minister for the department, was swift. Brison overruled the bureaucrat.

At the time, Brison said, “I support the whole policy of inclusion but I do not support discriminating against any group in hiring practice."

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/07/23/14807856.html

From the same link.

“New Canadians and other minorities are directly threatened by Stephen Harper’s decision to cut workplace diversity and the census,” said Liberal multiculturalism critic Justin Trudeau in a statement.

Funny what being in opposition will do to a political party's stance on policy.

[Jack Weber]

Y'see, there you go again, pretending Affirmative Action has a point to it. It never did in Canada. In the US, it had a point. In Canada, it's a way for cringing, ballless, bleeding heart liberals to feel noble and show how inclusive they are.

Mocking politically correct types like you is always useful. Mind you, it's hardly neccessary as anyone who commits themselves to support of Affirmative Action in Canada is pretty much dismissed as a clown by almost anyone with more than half a brain.

To call you completely and utterly clueless is an insult to the completely and utterly clueless...

But hey...You gotta be you....

By the way,Carnac...Got that list of things I espouse that would Layton smile yet?

After all,I'm a bleeding heart,politically correct leftist to a non-presumptuous,intellectual leviathan such as yourself right?

'Cause you've got all the answers us plebes require,right Einstein?

[Jack Weber]

Oh sob, sob, sob sob. Let me give you a clue here. In 1971, just after immigration was liberalized, there were a grand total of 34,000 blacks in all of Canada. There are now some 785,000 blacks in Canada. In your earnest, frantic need to make it up to those poor blacks of 1971 you are putting in place programs designed to aid people who were not even in this country when the situation you talk about existed. Nor were their parents, nor grandparents, nor great grandparents. More than 70% of all visible minority members are foreign born. Most of the rest are either aborigines or aren't even in the work force yet.

And guess what, there is no overt racism or discrimination. In fact, the federal government's massively expensive, complex, time-consuming and ineffecient HR system is largely designed, not with getting good employees, but with ensuring fairness in hiring and promotion.

Awwwww...

What's the matter ,Bunky????

Are we uncomfortable with the loss of your Abbotesque culture??

"How dare they infect our Eurocentric culture with those lower homind Hottentots!!!"

Speaking of sniff...sniff...

[charter.rights]

Drivel.

EVERYTHING is a matter of degree.

Only if we put Somalians on a reserve somewhere.

So

What possible value is there in that?

And yet, particular visible monirity groups are demonstrably NOT disadvantaged in any way, shape or form.

I'm assuming English is not your first language or you'd never say something that laughably silly.

70% of all visible minority members are foreign born, which means their English, unless they came from and English speaking country, will necessarily be inferior.

True though.

I'm saying that if they had ever asked the public to approve it they would not have gotten their approval. I'm saying no party ever made it a major issue - if they even ever put it into their election platform.

You've said, "These people here, they're not smart enough or good enough to get jobs on their own, even in a perfectly unbiased system, so I have to pull them out and put them in front, giving them preferential hiring."

No, you.

Funny but you just made a water tight case why affirmative action is necessary in public service. People like you need to be shelved.

My wish for you is that you get pigeon-holed while the visible minorities around get promoted as your bosses.

[Shwa]

Drivel. EVERYTHING is a matter of degree. Only if we put Somalians on a reserve somewhere. So What possible value is there in that? And yet, particular visible monirity groups are demonstrably NOT disadvantaged in any way, shape or form.

Drivel. We only need to remember that only a short while ago you stated that "the public service is drawn largely from the area around Ottawa..."

I'm assuming English is not your first language or you'd never say something that laughably silly. 70% of all visible minority members are foreign born, which means their English, unless they came from and English speaking country, will necessarily be inferior.

Are all visible minority employees of the Federal government foreign born? Does foreign birth exclude a Canadian education or have as good command of English as, say, a Quebecker?

I'm saying that if they had ever asked the public to approve it they would not have gotten their approval. I'm saying no party ever made it a major issue - if they even ever put it into their election platform.

It was never a major issue because all parties supported it. That is, all elected representatives of the Canadian people supported it (more or less). Now if you have a stories about MPs that were not re-elected because they supported the Emplpyment Equity Act, please share.

You've said, "These people here, they're not smart enough or good enough to get jobs on their own, even in a perfectly unbiased system, so I have to pull them out and put them in front, giving them preferential hiring."

Show me the post where I "said" that.

[charter.rights]

Are all visible minority employees of the Federal government foreign born? Does foreign birth exclude a Canadian education or have as good command of English as, say, a Quebecker?

It was never a major issue because all parties supported it. That is, all elected representatives of the Canadian people supported it (more or less). Now if you have a stories about MPs that were not re-elected because they supported the Emplpyment Equity Act, please share.

Show me the post where I "said" that.

He has lost the argument. The proof is in the fact that he is making up stuff now - grasping at straws as it were....

[Jack Weber]

He has lost the argument. The proof is in the fact that he is making up stuff now - grasping at straws as it were....

I like where Carnac the Magnificient says that it was in my frantic and earnest need to make up for things in 1971...yadda yadda squawk yadda...

I was born in 1970!!!

Clueless!!!!!

[Argus]

Awwwww...

A truism I've found is that when someone starts a post with something like "Awwwww" you know they're going to reveal the true heights of their intellectual abilities.

[Argus]

Funny but you just made a water tight case why affirmative action is necessary in public service. People like you need to be shelved.

Hey, are you ever going to read the Charter of Rights? Or the Constitution?

They might be out in comic book form now. Have a look round.

[Jack Weber]

A truism I've found is that when someone starts a post with something like "Awwwww" you know they're going to reveal the true heights of their intellectual abilities.

In this case,I was dumbing myself down to your level,sport...

YOUR truism's,and "Spidey senses",are a little off....

[Argus]

Are all visible minority employees of the Federal government foreign born? Does foreign birth exclude a Canadian education or have as good command of English as, say, a Quebecker?

I've given you the stat. 70% of all visible minorities are foreign born. Most of the rest, presumably, are aborigines. That means that, A, few will have the language skills, and B, we have no moral obligation to be making anything up to people who grew up in Nigeria or Somalia or Taiwan and just got off a plane last year.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Argus

[Smallc]

Aboriginals are not defined as visible minorities in Canada.

[charter.rights]

Hey, are you ever going to read the Charter of Rights? Or the Constitution?

They might be out in comic book form now. Have a look round.

My point is made....

He has lost the argument.

You can't even dig up a good ad hominem.

[Argus]

In this case,I was dumbing myself down to your level,sport...

I guess you have a lot of experience at dumbing down your arguments. You've been doing it, apparently, since your first post on this site.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Argus

[Jack Weber]

I guess you have a lot of experience at dumbing down your arguments. You've been doing it, apparently, since your first post on this site.

Takes one to know one,I suppose....

It's instructive to note that you simply can't,or won't,answer anything with the exception of sticking your nose up in the air and pretending your above all of us.

Got that Layton list yet,chief?

Let's see if you can nail me down,Carnac...

This'll be fun...

Edited July 24, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Shwa]

I've given you the stat. 70% of all visible minorities are foreign born. Most of the rest, presumably, are aborigines. That means that, A, few will have the language skills, and B, we have no moral obligation to be making anything up to people who grew up in Nigeria or Somalia or Taiwan and just got off a plane last year.

So now are you saying that visible minority hires in the Federal Government are " people who grew up in Nigeria or Somalia or Taiwan and just got off a plane last year?" Or are you saying that of visible minorities, 70% don't have the language skills to do the job they were hired for?

That's quite the rabbit hole you have fallen into Alice.

[Shwa]

Interesting story from the Star:

Job equity has old Tory roots

A couple of cool quotes:

Diefenbaker’s 1960 Bill of Rights helped stem the tide of racial discrimination in this country, though it failed to redress long-standing under-representation of minorities in the public service. Mulroney’s trail-blazing Employment Equity Act of 1986 went further in closing the gap between a largely white public service and an increasingly diversified national workforce.

But this one is the most telling:

The targeting of specific groups — such as aboriginals, the disabled, visible minorities and women — to the exclusion of other applicants is hardly rampant: of the 5,000 public service jobs posted last year, only 91 were designated for one group, such as aboriginals.

And, of course, the tactical:

Treasury Board President Stockwell Day, who oversees the public service, has seized on the story of Sara Landriault, a child-care choice advocate whose website shows her posing with Harper.

Choice for Childcare

Hers is an interesting blog, plenty of links to things like bloggingtories.ca and jacksnewswatch.com (aka "Fox North - The Preview").