Tories and Affirmative Action

[lukin]

Tories want a review of affirmative action hiring policies. Interesting.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/tories-look-to-scrap-affirmative-action-in-federal-hiring/article1648642/

Edited July 22, 2010 by lukin

[capricorn]

Looks like the Conservatives are firing on all cylinders. Purchase of F-35s, the census, and now affirmative action. Who knows what will be next. There should be plenty on the table for voters and pundits to sink their teeth in, come election time. This should make things very interesting.

[scribblet]

It's about time, merit and qualifications should be the deciding factors, not race. Maybe it has something to do with this

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2010/07/20/14772656.html

While surfing on the federal government job website, Landriault says she found a position at Citizenship and Immigration Canada she felt she was qualified for but was blocked from submitting her resume because she was not an aboriginal or visible minority.

“I was flabbergasted,” Landriault said in a telephone interview from her home in Kemptville, Ont., just south of Ottawa. “It was insane. I’m white, so I can’t do it?”

[Bonam]

Excellent news. I wasn't particularly happy with the conservatives before (though they are better than the alternatives), but if they can make some progress on this, I'll be cheering.

[scribblet]

Well, a lot of people won't be happy, watch accusations of racist start up. e.g. today's if anyone believes that ALL people should be treated equally - then that equates to racism

[Moonbox]

I'm with you scribllet. I'm waiting for the bedwetting.

[Bonam]

Well, a lot of people won't be happy, watch accusations of racist start up. e.g. today's if anyone believes that ALL people should be treated equally - then that equates to racism

I think the tide is somewhat turning. Countries in Europe are beginning to realize that being overrun with third worlders is not to their advantage, nationalist parties are gaining more of a voice, more influential speakers are coming out against immigration and multiculturalism, and people are becoming fed up with things like affirmative action. At least that's my sense of the current climate on this topic, though this backswing is only in its infant stages.

Perhaps with the Canadian government's attack on racist hiring policies, we can be among the leaders in creating a truly equitable society.

That being said, I'm not holding my breath. I'm sure the opposition will paint the Tories as racists for this and they may very well be forced to retreat and abandon such changes.

[dre]

I think the tide is somewhat turning. Countries in Europe are beginning to realize that being overrun with third worlders is not to their advantage, nationalist parties are gaining more of a voice, more influential speakers are coming out against immigration and multiculturalism, and people are becoming fed up with things like affirmative action. At least that's my sense of the current climate on this topic, though this backswing is only in its infant stages.

Perhaps with the Canadian government's attack on racist hiring policies, we can be among the leaders in creating a truly equitable society.

That being said, I'm not holding my breath. I'm sure the opposition will paint the Tories as racists for this and they may very well be forced to retreat and abandon such changes.

Perhaps with the Canadian government's attack on racist hiring policies, we can be among the leaders in creating a truly equitable society.

More than likely we will create the exact opposite, and result in a situation where theres much more racial and sexual descrimination in the workplace than there is now.

[Bonam]

More than likely we will create the exact opposite, and result in a situation where theres much more racial and sexual descrimination in the workplace than there is now.

I disagree with your fundamental premise, that affirmative action somehow reduces discrimination. My point of view is that affirmative action is institutionalized racism of the worst sort, and the mode of thinking that sees it as something positive is utterly alien to me.

[ToadBrother]

I disagree with your fundamental premise, that affirmative action somehow reduces discrimination. My point of view is that affirmative action is institutionalized racism of the worst sort, and the mode of thinking that sees it as something positive is utterly alien to me.

Well, it can't be as bad as the institutionalized racism of the other sort. I have my problems with affirmative action, but that's not to say that a number of groups haven't suffered rather pernicious forms of discrimination in the past, and that there should be some sort of an assurance that the government is now color-blind. I think sometimes the opponents of affirmative action doth protest too much, ignoring decades of abuses.

There are some areas where, shall I say, selective hiring might be beneficial. I know that in my area, having a couple First Nations police officers has been of great benefit with that group, giving a community that has long had a somewhat mixed relationship with the RCMP some positive role models. It would be nice to live in a world where there were no prejudices, but we don't, and worse, we live in a world where the scars of that prejudice are all too visible. Pretending that by simply declaring "We're not like that any more! We're all equal now! You can trust us!" isn't exactly going to inspire confidence from certain quarters.

Edited July 22, 2010 by ToadBrother

[dre]

I disagree with your fundamental premise, that affirmative action somehow reduces discrimination. My point of view is that affirmative action is institutionalized racism of the worst sort, and the mode of thinking that sees it as something positive is utterly alien to me.

So you think it would be positive if only white men got good jobs? Because thats what it was like before affirmative action. There was constant racial and sexual descrimination to the point where a women or minorities had almost no chance of getting a job unless there was no white man that wanted it.

Id personally like to see a meritocracy and I agree that AA sometimes conflicts with that, but the alternative conflicts with that concept even more.

[Molly]

So you think it would be positive if only white men got good jobs? Because thats what it was like before affirmative action. There was constant racial and sexual descrimination to the point where a women or minorities had almost no chance of getting a job unless there was no white man that wanted it.

Id personally like to see a meritocracy and I agree that AA sometimes conflicts with that, but the alternative conflicts with that concept even more.

Well said.

[Jack Weber]

Well, it can't be as bad as the institutionalized racism of the other sort. I have my problems with affirmative action, but that's not to say that a number of groups haven't suffered rather pernicious forms of discrimination in the past, and that there should be some sort of an assurance that the government is now color-blind. I think sometimes the opponents of affirmative action doth protest too much, ignoring decades of abuses.

There are some areas where, shall I say, selective hiring might be beneficial. I know that in my area, having a couple First Nations police officers has been of great benefit with that group, giving a community that has long had a somewhat mixed relationship with the RCMP some positive role models. It would be nice to live in a world where there were no prejudices, but we don't, and worse, we live in a world where the scars of that prejudice are all too visible. Pretending that by simply declaring "We're not like that any more! We're all equal now! You can trust us!" isn't exactly going to inspire confidence from certain quarters.

Well said...

I always get the feeling that those that oppose things like this would have opposed it 40 years ago anyway...

[Bonam]

So you think it would be positive if only white men got good jobs? Because thats what it was like before affirmative action. There was constant racial and sexual descrimination to the point where a women or minorities had almost no chance of getting a job unless there was no white man that wanted it.

You are posing a false dichotomy. As if the only choice is affirmative action or "only white men" getting good jobs. This is not the case at all.

My opinion is that whoever is best qualified for a job is the person who should be hired. No one should be barred from a job, or preferentially hired for a job, on the basis of their race, except in such cases where being a member of a certain race is useful to perform a certain job (for example, TB's example of a few First Nations police officers being useful).

Comparing to what it was like before affirmative action is irrelevant. That was what, the 60s? Things were completely different then.

[Argus]

So you think it would be positive if only white men got good jobs? Because thats what it was like before affirmative action. There was constant racial and sexual descrimination to the point where a women or minorities had almost no chance of getting a job unless there was no white man that wanted it.

Oh give it a rest, Mr. Freedom March.

Up until the liberalization of immigration around 1969 there were virtually no visible minorities in Canada aside from aborigines. I never saw a non-white through my school years, right through high school.

I'm not saying there wasn't sometimes a discriminatory mentality towards those visible minorities who were here, but virtually all the people we're benefitting with these kinds of policies were living in other countries then, or their parents were.

[Jack Weber]

You are posing a false dichotomy. As if the only choice is affirmative action or "only white men" getting good jobs. This is not the case at all.

My opinion is that whoever is best qualified for a job is the person who should be hired. No one should be barred from a job, or preferentially hired for a job, on the basis of their race, except in such cases where being a member of a certain race is useful to perform a certain job (for example, TB's example of a few First Nations police officers being useful).

Comparing to what it was like before affirmative action is irrelevant. That was what, the 60s? Things were completely different then.

Bonam...

This is'nt an attack...

Do you think that the generational problems(state sponsored illiteracy etc.) of 300+years of slavery,approximately 100 years of Jim Crow can be erased within the 45 years period since the sweeping civil rights legislation of the early '60's?

[Argus]

Well said...

I always get the feeling that those that oppose things like this would have opposed it 40 years ago anyway...

And you? You're in favour of hiring people based strictly on their skin colour now. Therefore, I presume, you would have been in favour of it 40 years ago, as well.

So what kind of a racist does that make you?

[Argus]

Bonam...

This is'nt an attack...

Do you think that the generational problems(state sponsored illiteracy etc.) of 300+years of slavery,approximately 100 years of Jim Crow can be erased within the 45 years period since the sweeping civil rights legislation of the early '60's?

The problem with you lefties is you're always so painfully earnest in your desire to "make it up to" the non-whites in Canada...... because of what you saw in movies about how non-whites in the US got treated.

[Topaz]

I always thought when applying for a job, applications should only have a phone number on them until the decision is made who actual gets the job. That way, the only info should be is the work history and education of that person.

[ToadBrother]

You are posing a false dichotomy. As if the only choice is affirmative action or "only white men" getting good jobs. This is not the case at all.

As I said, I have my problems with affirmative action. But that there is a problem that needs a solution should not be doubted.

My opinion is that whoever is best qualified for a job is the person who should be hired. No one should be barred from a job, or preferentially hired for a job, on the basis of their race, except in such cases where being a member of a certain race is useful to perform a certain job (for example, TB's example of a few First Nations police officers being useful).

But on a strictly merit bases, First Nations officers explicitly being sent to communities with troubled First Nations groups within it fails muster. Surely a white or Chinese cop, if a good man, should be accepted by First Nations people, right?

That's the problem with following an ideology to the letter. Pragmatism should always be a factor.

Comparing to what it was like before affirmative action is irrelevant. That was what, the 60s? Things were completely different then.

And this is where we enter the "We're so different!" Don't you see, it's the Wizard of Oz defense "Ignore the man behind the curtain!" The scars of past racism, of past discrimination still linger. The First Nations communities, for instance, were devastated by it, and it's damned cold comfort to simply say "Well, that was twenty or thirty years ago, time to get over it."

Clearly a part of any healing process, or in general a process of righting injustices, has to be more than simply telling the abused party that there's no problem any more, because that sounds more like you're trying abrogate society's past evils than actually deal with deep-rooted problems.

I mean, do you seriously think that just because Eisenhower sent the troops into Little Rock, that the problems of African-Americans just disappeared? That somehow you can draw some line in the sand, and declare "it isn't the 1960s anymore" as if somehow the 1960s represent the wall between Jim Crow and the modern America society?

As I said, affirmative action may be the wrong way to go about righting these wrongs, but make believing these wrongs didn't exist and still can't rear their heads is just navel gazing at its worst.

[ToadBrother]

The problem with you lefties is you're always so painfully earnest in your desire to "make it up to" the non-whites in Canada...... because of what you saw in movies about how non-whites in the US got treated.

I live in a community where the local First Nations were devestated by the Residential School System. The callousness of what you wrote is extraordinary, the dismissal of historical abuses because, in your eyes, someone watched Memphis Burning too many times is pretty stunning.

[Jack Weber]

The problem with you lefties is you're always so painfully earnest in your desire to "make it up to" the non-whites in Canada...... because of what you saw in movies about how non-whites in the US got treated.

Coming from a self described elitist,the fact you think I'm a leftist is funny...

and..

You're response is not shocking...It's pathetic,but not shocking...

Since you clearly are above most people(at least in your own mind),and race based hiring quota's are abhorrent to you,could you tell us your intellectually superior plan for overcoming the obvious societal disadvantages certain groups have because of a system that was clearly not designed for their societal advancement?

And by the way,I don't particularily like any sort of hiring quota's.I think the downside of these things is that they are indirectly paternalistic and infantilizing

Edited July 22, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Jack Weber]

I live in a community where the local First Nations were devestated by the Residential School System. The callousness of what you wrote is extraordinary, the dismissal of historical abuses because, in your eyes, someone watched Memphis Burning too many times is pretty stunning.

His is the cluelessness of an elitist...

[Argus]

I live in a community where the local First Nations were devestated by the Residential School System. The callousness of what you wrote is extraordinary, the dismissal of historical abuses because, in your eyes, someone watched Memphis Burning too many times is pretty stunning.

Oh cry me a river.

[ToadBrother]

Oh cry me a river.

I tell you what. You go tell them that.