"Fluent in English and Mandarin"

[Bonam]

If Canada were wise, we'd be doing the same thing in our school system. The idea of all English-Canadians learning French and all French-Canadians learning English just doesn't cut it anymore. We need to give students more second-language choices so that they can reach out to the larger world market. I can guarantee that as the economic reality shifts away from the English-speaking world the rest of the world won't bow to our wish to speak loud and slow. If they have the money, and we want it, then we have to speak their language if we want them to buy our product. That's the reality of the game.

High school students in Canada can already pick out of several second languages to learn, not only French. For example, the school I went to offered the options of French, Japanese, Spanish, and Musqueam. Larger schools typically offered more languages to choose from.

That being said, learning second languages at the high school level is pretty much worthless. Unless you have a special aptitude for languages, the only real way to learn a language is to immerse yourself in it. Living in Quebec for one year, I learned FAR more French than in 8 years of learning it in school.

Anyway, I certainly agree that learning more languages is certainly valuable for an individual looking to be more competitive for finding many kinds of jobs. Also, learning Mandarin can actually be quite amusing if you live in Vancouver. If you are ever on public transit or in other crowded public areas, there are a lot of Chinese all around that assume that if you are white, you can't understand when they speak in their native language.

[Jack Weber]

High school students in Canada can already pick out of several second languages to learn, not only French. For example, the school I went to offered the options of French, Japanese, Spanish, and Musqueam. Larger schools typically offered more languages to choose from.

That being said, learning second languages at the high school level is pretty much worthless. Unless you have a special aptitude for languages, the only real way to learn a language is to immerse yourself in it. Living in Quebec for one year, I learned FAR more French than in 8 years of learning it in school.

Anyway, I certainly agree that learning more languages is certainly valuable for an individual looking to be more competitive for finding many kinds of jobs. Also, learning Mandarin can actually be quite amusing if you live in Vancouver. If you are ever on public transit or in other crowded public areas, there are a lot of Chinese all around that assume that if you are white, you can't understand when they speak in their native language.

There's a plus to learning Mandarin...

The ability to pick up hot Chinese chicks...Perhaps at Mandarin?

Here's a few hints...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_Zc2SbPWnI

[Shwa]

And since we're in the world of hypotheticals, what if I owned a mental health clinic across the street - and I bought a sophisticated, low-cost Chinese computer system to offer the same service?

That is, the issue is not fluency in Mandarin - the issue is the cost of the service.

All Canadians can agree, I think, that we are all better off because we have ATMs and cell phones. Would our opinion change if we learned that cell phones and ATMs were not based on new technology - but rather based on "cheap labour" in India or China? How would Canadians feel about using ATMs and cell phones if they learned that Chinese and Indians (not computers) were working behind the scenes to make these services available?

If we change the words "Chinese/Indian/immigrants" with "high-tech computers", does that change MikeDavid's argument?

The UN? Computers are taking over everywhere too. We even have these crazy Internet forums now...

Could you restate and clarify your comments please? You seem to be making a juxtaposition that is heading towards apples and oranges. I get a sense of your point, but it is somewhat unclear.

[Machjo]

High school students in Canada can already pick out of several second languages to learn, not only French. For example, the school I went to offered the options of French, Japanese, Spanish, and Musqueam. Larger schools typically offered more languages to choose from.

What province? I know in BC the Ministry of Education recognizes French, Spanish, German, Arabic, Mandarin Chinese and Japanese. Alberta's recognizes quite a few languages too, including Cree and Blackfoot. As for Manitoba and Saskatchewan, I have no idea. But n Ontario, a few exceptions aside, all students must learn French. In Quebec, they must all learn English as their second language.

While I thinnk Western Canada is on the right track and Quebec and Ontario can learn from their example, I'd say even Western Canada does not go far enough. In the UK, a school is free to teach the second-language of its choice among any of the world's languages as long as the course plan it's using has been approved by at least the local education authority. Hungary's system is actually simply an improved version of the British one (in fact I'd heard that their system is in fact consciously modeled on the British one), whereby a school is free to teach any of the world's languages it wants as its second language as long as the course plan has been approved by the Ministry of Education. In both the British and Hungarian models, any school or organization or even individual is free to create a course plan of his own to present to the appropriate authority for approval based on pedagogical soundness. The Hungarian model goes one step further in that any private organization that meets certain criteria can offer the national test in one of the approved languages, and that each student is also free to request to sit the test in a language of his choice among all of the approved languages.

While BC and Alberta are certainly far ahead of Ontario and Quebec in this respect, even they still have a ways to go to allow more options.

That being said, learning second languages at the high school level is pretty much worthless. Unless you have a special aptitude for languages, the only real way to learn a language is to immerse yourself in it. Living in Quebec for one year, I learned FAR more French than in 8 years of learning it in school.

Again, that depends on the language. Some languages can be anywhere from 5 to 10 times easier to learn than either French or English. This is one reason Italy, the UK, Poland, Hungary, Australia, some US districts, and Croatia allow Esperanto to be taught in their school systems. If any school wishes to teach it, and students can sit the Esperanto test to fulfill graduation requirements if he wishes. Here is some info on the Italian and British models:

http://www.internacialingvo.org/public/study.pdf

http://www.springboard2languages.org/home.htm

There is even a high school in Switzerland that teaches in Esperanto:

http://www.alte.org/further_info/institutional_affiliates.pdf (go to page 12)

There is a college in Poland that teaches in Esperanto, an international research academy (http://www.ais-sanmarino.org/index_en.html), and an international business association (http://users.telenet.be/ikef/ikef_gb.html), not to mention various religious and many other groups.

Certainly it does not make sense to force students to learn a difficult second language if there is no certainly that they will have a chance to go on to university. In such a case, certainly an easy language option ought to be included among the options if we wish to be fair to those students who cannot go on to university. It would seem that Canada is falling behind other countries on this front. I know one school in Halifax now teaches it, but it only stated this last September, so it's got a long way to go to catch up with its European counterparts. Also, a number of universities in China teach Esperanto too; we have none.

Anyway, I certainly agree that learning more languages is certainly valuable for an individual looking to be more competitive for finding many kinds of jobs. Also, learning Mandarin can actually be quite amusing if you live in Vancouver. If you are ever on public transit or in other crowded public areas, there are a lot of Chinese all around that assume that if you are white, you can't understand when they speak in their native language.

Don't kid yourself. I'd met Caucasian Chinese in China, especially in North Western China, mostly among Chinese of Kazakh, Uighur, Russian, Kirghiz, and other ethnicities. Some Chinese are of Russian blood even though they'd lived in China for generations. I've listened in to Chinese conversations in public in Canada and I can tell you they are cautious in what they say. In fact, most have already come across Mandarin-speaking Canadians. Remember after all that Mandarin Chinese is quickly becoming a major language of commerce in the world. Few Chinese would be foolish enough to say nasty things in public even in Canada with the idea that they are somehow protected by their language.

[Bonam]

What province? I know in BC the Ministry of Education recognizes French, Spanish, German, Arabic, Mandarin Chinese and Japanese. Alberta's recognizes quite a few languages too, including Cree and Blackfoot. As for Manitoba and Saskatchewan, I have no idea. But n Ontario, a few exceptions aside, all students must learn French. In Quebec, they must all learn English as their second language.

What province? I was talking about BC.

While I thinnk Western Canada is on the right track and Quebec and Ontario can learn from their example, I'd say even Western Canada does not go far enough. In the UK, a school is free to teach the second-language of its choice among any of the world's languages as long as the course plan it's using has been approved by at least the local education authority. Hungary's system is actually simply an improved version of the British one (in fact I'd heard that their system is in fact consciously modeled on the British one), whereby a school is free to teach any of the world's languages it wants as its second language as long as the course plan has been approved by the Ministry of Education. In both the British and Hungarian models, any school or organization or even individual is free to create a course plan of his own to present to the appropriate authority for approval based on pedagogical soundness. The Hungarian model goes one step further in that any private organization that meets certain criteria can offer the national test in one of the approved languages, and that each student is also free to request to sit the test in a language of his choice among all of the approved languages.

I think it makes sense to try to get schools to teach languages that are of greater importance and usage around the world, or of significance to the heritage of the area that the school is in, rather than any old language they choose. Of course if they can offer even more languages that is great, but a typical high school of no more than 1000-2000 students could not sustain more than 4 or 5 second language options while maintaining sufficient numbers in each class to be cost effective. If only a limited number of languages can be chosen, I would prefer they be ones that have the potential to be the most useful.

Again, that depends on the language. Some languages can be anywhere from 5 to 10 times easier to learn than either French or English. This is one reason Italy, the UK, Poland, Hungary, Australia, some US districts, and Croatia allow Esperanto to be taught in their school systems. If any school wishes to teach it, and students can sit the Esperanto test to fulfill graduation requirements if he wishes. Here is some info on the Italian and British models:

http://www.internacialingvo.org/public/study.pdf

http://www.springboard2languages.org/home.htm

There is even a high school in Switzerland that teaches in Esperanto:

http://www.alte.org/further_info/institutional_affiliates.pdf (go to page 12)

There is a college in Poland that teaches in Esperanto, an international research academy (http://www.ais-sanmarino.org/index_en.html), and an international business association (http://users.telenet.be/ikef/ikef_gb.html), not to mention various religious and many other groups.

I know all about Esperanto actually, my dad is a semi-fluent speaker of it. That being said, Esperanto is something of a failed project, the hopes of making it a universal international language are long dead, and there are very very few native speakers. Real (rather than constructed) languages are generally not nearly as easy to learn.

Certainly it does not make sense to force students to learn a difficult second language if there is no certainly that they will have a chance to go on to university. In such a case, certainly an easy language option ought to be included among the options if we wish to be fair to those students who cannot go on to university. It would seem that Canada is falling behind other countries on this front. I know one school in Halifax now teaches it, but it only stated this last September, so it's got a long way to go to catch up with its European counterparts. Also, a number of universities in China teach Esperanto too; we have none.

Teaching an easy language for the sake of it being easy makes no sense. I would much rather learn a useful language than an easy one. That being said Esperanto can be learned as something of a side project by someone interested in it.

Don't kid yourself. I'd met Caucasian Chinese in China, especially in North Western China, mostly among Chinese of Kazakh, Uighur, Russian, Kirghiz, and other ethnicities. Some Chinese are of Russian blood even though they'd lived in China for generations. I've listened in to Chinese conversations in public in Canada and I can tell you they are cautious in what they say. In fact, most have already come across Mandarin-speaking Canadians. Remember after all that Mandarin Chinese is quickly becoming a major language of commerce in the world. Few Chinese would be foolish enough to say nasty things in public even in Canada with the idea that they are somehow protected by their language.

I understand 5 languages (3 besides English and French) and whenever I encounter speakers of any of these languages in public they are completely careless about what they say. I am often the same way when talking to others in a language besides English or French. It's actually quite nice having a language essentially private to yourself and the person you are talking to, even if once in a while someone you might not expect is listening in.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Bonam

[Machjo]

What province? I was talking about BC.

Fair enough.

I think it makes sense to try to get schools to teach languages that are of greater importance and usage around the world, or of significance to the heritage of the area that the school is in, rather than any old language they choose. Of course if they can offer even more languages that is great, but a typical high school of no more than 1000-2000 students could not sustain more than 4 or 5 second language options while maintaining sufficient numbers in each class to be cost effective. If only a limited number of languages can be chosen, I would prefer they be ones that have the potential to be the most useful.

And who knows which language would be most useful other than the school and students themselves? The Ministry of Education located hundreds of kilometres away?

And how do you define 'more useful'? Do you know a second language yourself? I know a number of languages, and I find each one useful in different ways. Who gets to define 'more useful'?

I agree that a school might not have the resources to teach more than one second-language, but it might have the resources to choose one among a few. Why not depoliticize the process and let the school decide based on local demand? Better yet, go to a Swedish-style voucher system, and let the market decide.

I know all about Esperanto actually, my dad is a semi-fluent speaker of it. That being said, Esperanto is something of a failed project, the hopes of making it a universal international language are long dead, and there are very very few native speakers. Real (rather than constructed) languages are generally not nearly as easy to learn.

You are making big assumptions here. First off, a language does not need to be spoken universally to be useful. Some people are employed thanks to Esperanto. I'm sure if you asked them, they'd say it's useful seeing that it pays their salary. Just a few examples:

http://esperanto.cri.cn/

http://esperanto.cri.cn/

Seeing that these are both official Chinese government websites, you're not going to tell me that the people who designed them work for free now are you, or that Esperanto is not a basic requirement for the job?

I'm sure the Esperanto teachers working in public schools participating in the Springboard to Languages programme aren't working for free either. Likewise with the other Esperanto teachers. And what about businessmen who trade in Esperanto? I've met some, and I'm sure they'd think it useful too seeing that it makes them money.

Add to that research that proves that the learning of Esperanto helps to develop the language aptitude of those who are not good at language learning, thus proving useful not only as a language in its own right, but also as a stepping stone to other language that they otherwise could not learn well.

Who are we to decide what language is useful or not? Let the parents, schools and teachers decide, and depoliticize it altogether like they've done in Hungary.

Teaching an easy language for the sake of it being easy makes no sense.

Agreed.

I would much rather learn a useful language than an easy one.

I don't know how to answer this one seeing that I don't fully understand your definition of 'useful'. But if I understand you correctly, then I probably agree with your statement.

That being said Esperanto can be learned as something of a side project by someone interested in it.

... or someone lacking the necessary language-learning aptitude for more difficult languages as a stepping stone to more difficult languages later.

[Bonam]

And who knows which language would be most useful other than the school and students themselves? The Ministry of Education located hundreds of kilometres away?

And how do you define 'more useful'? Do you know a second language yourself? I know a number of languages, and I find each one useful in different ways. Who gets to define 'more useful'?

I agree that a school might not have the resources to teach more than one second-language, but it might have the resources to choose one among a few. Why not depoliticize the process and let the school decide based on local demand? Better yet, go to a Swedish-style voucher system, and let the market decide.

A more useful language is one spoken by more people, more heavily used in international commerce, in literature, in science, on the internet, etc, as well as those showing favorable demographics/trends to join that category in the future.

I don't deny that any language *can* be useful. Obviously, if you learn a certain language, and then become a teacher of that language, then your employment depends on knowing that language. But in general, there are certain languages that are much more useful to know. How many doors does knowing English open, compared to for example a Talodi-Heiban language? I'm sure you can come up with some rhetorical answer but the reality is that English is of course far more useful.

Add to that research that proves that the learning of Esperanto helps to develop the language aptitude of those who are not good at language learning, thus proving useful not only as a language in its own right, but also as a stepping stone to other language that they otherwise could not learn well.

Who are we to decide what language is useful or not? Let the parents, schools and teachers decide, and depoliticize it altogether like they've done in Hungary.

Letting schools decide things at a local level can be a good thing, but it can also cause ill effect, especially given that parent's choices of where to send their kids for schools are often limited. In terms of public schooling, unless parents are willing to go through quite a lot of hassle, their kids go to the nearest elementary/high schools (the school whose catchment area they fall into). If that school only offers choices of certain obscure languages, the kids that go there may well be at a disadvantage compared to others that go to another school that offers more prominent languages.

If Esperanto helps to learn language-learning skills so that one can learn other languages easier later, that's great. But I still wouldn't want a child at school in Canada to have the option of taking Esperanto but lack the option of taking French, for example.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Bonam

[Machjo]

If Esperanto helps to learn language-learning skills so that one can learn other languages easier later, that's great. But I still wouldn't want a child at school in Canada to have the option of taking Esperanto but lack the option of taking French, for example.

Just to take one example: in one research study in Poland, it was found that those who'd learnt Esperanto for one year followed by French for three years actually outperformed those who'd learnt French for four years, essentially allowing them to learn two languages for the price of one. Research in Germany and Italy have found the same. For instance, the Italian Ministry of Education found that the learning of Esperanto accelerated the learning of a following language by over 30%! This research has brought about such impressive results that a university in Hungary actually has a department of Eperantology. Why would we want to deprive students of such improvements in our language learning system?

The UK is applying this research already:

http://www.springboard2languages.org/documents/springboard_rationale.pdf

This also brings up the issue of 'usefulness'. Schools teach the recorder not because they want all children to become recorder players, but rather because it's an easy first instruments to learn, and therefore saves time later when teaching more complicated instruments like the piano. Os some parents in China have their children learn simplified forms of tai chi chuan not because they're more effective than the traditional forms of tai chi chuan, but rather because they serve as a useful introduction to martial arts owing to their being comparatively easier to learn.

We cannot look at 'usefulness' so narrowly as to say that unless the recorder is useful in its own right, we should not teach it. I could imagine a piano teacher would feel quite frustrated with a student who'd not learnt an easier instrument before going on to the piano. This of course is likely the same frustration many language teachers face now. Certainly propadeutic advantages must be taken into account too in determining the usefulness of a language. Just because French is more useful than Esperanto in its own right does not mean Esperanto cannot be more useful than French as a preparatory language for the learning of other languages later.

Again, why not let schools exploit all the the most recent research at their disposal? Europe is doing it, so why not us?

http://www.springboard2languages.org/documents/springboard_rationale.pdf

[Machjo]

Or another way of looking at it, which would be more useful between a smattering of tourist French and fluency in Esperanto, seeing that the amount of time required to learn tourist French would suffice to learn Esperanto to fluency?

There is no correct answer of course, and there are various ways of analyzing it. But in the end, it shows that the question is not so easy to answer.

To take some examples:

With tourist French, your French would not be good enough to land you a job or give you a salary or help your livelihood. But it would allow you to order food in restaurants and plane tickets and ask for directions and all that touristy stuff in many countries around the world. A drawback though is that after so many years of study to achieve such mediocre results, many get discouraged and so lose interest in further language learning. It also does not allow for any deep exchange of ideas, only basic practical tourist stuff.

With fluency in Esperanto, you won't be able to make yourself understood in most restaurants, hotels, etc. On that front, it's not a particularly useful tourist language. On the other hand, unlike tourist French, it could potentially land you a job among the few jobs there are in the language. You could easily use it on internet forums to exchange a wide range of ideas online or at Congresses, read publications, gazettes, websites, internet forums, literstrue both original and translated, etc. And since you'd have learnt one second-language with success, you're also likely to be motivated to learn a third language owing to more self confidence in language learning, and the gramamr and roots learnt in Eperanto will often be transferable to other languages too, including French.

Now if you have the chance of going to university to learn French, then tourist French would still give you a headstart, whereas Esperanto would give you a solid foundation. Both could prove useful on that front.

But if you decide to go on to university to learn Chinese, fluency in Esperanto will prove far more useful than a smattering of tourist French owing to certain Asiatic grammatical structures of Esperanto.

So as you can see, the question of what language is useful or not will really depend on the use to which you intend to put it, your chances of going to university, your disposable income for travel, etc.

There are so many factors involved in determining the 'usefulness' of a language, that it's not as simple as you make it out to be. This is why in the end it's best to go to a Swedish-style school voucher system and a Hungarian-style second-language instruction policy and then just let the schools decide for themselves according to market demand.

[William Ashley]

Their business, it should be their choice of hiring.

You want only' born in Canada employees, start your own business that does it, and see how you do.

[mikedavid00]

A more useful language is one spoken by more people, more heavily used in international commerce, in literature, in science, on the internet, etc, as well as those showing favorable demographics/trends to join that category in the future.

If anyone has travelled they would see that the world is all moving to English so we can speak to one another. The answer is not to have Canadians speaking foreign languages.

It's funny though. The responses clearly demonstate just how many people on this forum are brainwashed, media fed hacks who have never worked a day in their lives.

The job posting was simply for someone who can communicate to the rest of their dept. in their own language. Another Canadian dept. hijacked by those who refuse to speak English and cannot speak it. BUT OH MY THE HAVE A GREAT SHINY DEGREE WITH A NICE GPA!!

Ever try ACTUALLY WORKING WITH THESE PEOPLE?

Oh yeah.. no. People on this forum don't work. As well as the forum owner himself.

Everyone here is on subsidies from myself, wife and family to live the Candian dream.

Wow... it truly is unreal. I really, truly do feel sorry for you guys. You honestly have no clue what is going on in this country. Other countries are fine with their policies and economy. Our country is completely messed up. But you guys wouldn't know anything about that.

[Bonam]

If anyone has travelled they would see that the world is all moving to English so we can speak to one another. The answer is not to have Canadians speaking foreign languages.

It's funny though. The responses clearly demonstate just how many people on this forum are brainwashed, media fed hacks who have never worked a day in their lives.

The job posting was simply for someone who can communicate to the rest of their dept. in their own language. Another Canadian dept. hijacked by those who refuse to speak English and cannot speak it. BUT OH MY THE HAVE A GREAT SHINY DEGREE WITH A NICE GPA!!

Ever try ACTUALLY WORKING WITH THESE PEOPLE?

Oh yeah.. no. People on this forum don't work. As well as the forum owner himself.

Everyone here is on subsidies from myself, wife and family to live the Candian dream.

Wow... it truly is unreal. I really, truly do feel sorry for you guys. You honestly have no clue what is going on in this country. Other countries are fine with their policies and economy. Our country is completely messed up. But you guys wouldn't know anything about that.

Not sure how that is a response to my post you quoted. By the way didn't you just post a thread recently about how you were unemployed and could not find a job? How are you subsidizing anyone if you are sitting on EI? Also, while Canada certainly is not perfect, to say that other countries are "doing fine" while Canada is "messed up" is blatantly wrong, Canada remains one of the world's best places to live. Most of the West has the same sort of policies which you dislike, and most of the rest of the world sucks to live in, with just a few specific exceptions like Japan and South Korea.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Bonam

[Machjo]

If anyone has travelled they would see that the world is all moving to English so we can speak to one another. The answer is not to have Canadians speaking foreign languages. [/wuote]

You've obviously never traveled have you, let alone worked abroad. I've done both, and have had no choice but to learn at least a smattering of the local language just because even among the educated, few learn English well enough that I would ever risk signing a contract in it owing to my doubting just how well they really understand the contract. The last thing I need is a court case based on a misunderstanding, especially when the national law recognizes the national language as taking precedence over English in the event of ambiguities.

It's funny though. The responses clearly demonstate just how many people on this forum are brainwashed, media fed hacks who have never worked a day in their lives.

Yes, all those people on the streets, at police stations, inhotels, restaurants, government and private offices, etc. during my travels and work abroad were all part of a major conspiracy, all pretending to not know English just to lead me to believe that English is international only in the English-language classrooms of the world, the most international of business, and major international tourist hot spots and that's about it. Travel in your tour group lest your bubble burst.

The job posting was simply for someone who can communicate to the rest of their dept. in their own language. Another Canadian dept. hijacked by those who refuse to speak English and cannot speak it. BUT OH MY THE HAVE A GREAT SHINY DEGREE WITH A NICE GPA!!

Ever try ACTUALLY WORKING WITH THESE PEOPLE?

I've worked in BC, Ottawa, Montreal, la Malbaie, Shanghai, Jinan, Hefei, and Changchun at one point or another in my life, and I can tell you that even within Canada, even when dealing with Canadian clients, I've often had to be able to adapt to the local environment. Believe me, when I worked in Quebec, French was a required part of the job, take it or leave it. With all the degrees in the world, if you can't even talk, you're useless.

Oh yeah.. no. People on this forum don't work. As well as the forum owner himself.

Of course not. My computer just fell from heaven, along with the free internet access. I just prayed it to be so.

Everyone here is on subsidies from myself, wife and family to live the Candian dream.

Seeing that you're the one complaining about lacking the necessary qualifications for the job, how about you do what I did. Go to a bookstore (you know, those shops with lots of books in them), buy a book that could teach you the language or whatever skill is lacking, learn it, and then go out there and get off your donkey.

Wow... it truly is unreal. I really, truly do feel sorry for you guys. You honestly have no clue what is going on in this country. Other countries are fine with their policies and economy. Our country is completely messed up. But you guys wouldn't know anything about that.

Funny that. I'd come across unemployed people in Hong Kong when I was there. Hmmm... Maybe the world isn't that different after all. So, how far afield have you ever worked from home?

Edited July 25, 2010 by Machjo