Son of Hamas

[Bob]

Son of Hamas: A Gripping Account of Terror, Betrayal, Political Intrigue, and Unthinkable Choices.

If any of you are interested in reading this book, send me a PM. It's a pretty short book and it's a very easy read. Very intense.

Here's a link to its Amazon.com advertisement.

[Borg]

Son of Hamas: A Gripping Account of Terror, Betrayal, Political Intrigue, and Unthinkable Choices.

If any of you are interested in reading this book, send me a PM. It's a pretty short book and it's a very easy read. Very intense.

Here's a link to its Amazon.com advertisement.

Read it already

Folks here will not believe it and will call it a nice bit of fiction

Borg

[Guest American Woman]

Sounds like an interesting read; just ordered it.

[dre]

Sweet! an objective account from.... An Israeli spy, that the Department of Homeland Security is trying to deport for providing material support for a terrorist organization.

[Guest American Woman]

Interesting article on the book on the National Public Radio website: From 'Son Of Hamas' To Agent Of Shin Bet

There's also a radio clip of an interview with the author.

[Bob]

Interesting article on the book on the National Public Radio website: From 'Son Of Hamas' To Agent Of Shin Bet

There's also a radio clip of an interview with the author.

If you go to YouTube, there are many interviews that he's done. It's quite an unique story!

[dre]

Interesting article on the book on the National Public Radio website: From 'Son Of Hamas' To Agent Of Shin Bet

There's also a radio clip of an interview with the author.

Love the interview he did with Hannity where he claims theres no such thing as a moderate muslim, and that theres no difference between some guy who works on his farm all day and has absolutely nothing to do with any jihad or attacks on anybody is the same as a fanatic. Reasonable stuff! Im wondering if the author created an account here named Bob!

[Bob]

He`s too puritanical and I reject his take that Islam cannot be moderated. Perhaps what he needs to add, along the lines of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's perspective, is that Islam needs to be liberalized and reformed in ways that have occurred among the Christian and Jewish communities. Isrhad Manji also talks about this.

As it stands, now, conservative Islam cannot be reconciled with universal values of freedom and liberty. The proof is out there for all to see.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Bob

[Jack Weber]

I contend that Islam requires a Reformation that Christianity went through over 500 years ago.

It took the courage of people like Martin Luther and Jean Cauvin to stand up to the Catholic Church of the time.

Somehow,someway,the sane elements within Islam must stand up for thier faith and stop it from being hijacked by the murderous zealots.

[dre]

I contend that Islam requires a Reformation that Christianity went through over 500 years ago.

It took the courage of people like Martin Luther and Jean Cauvin to stand up to the Catholic Church of the time.

Somehow,someway,the sane elements within Islam must stand up for thier faith and stop it from being hijacked by the murderous zealots.

Whats needed is for the middle east to continue development and industrialization. Hopefully this will empower people to boot the church out of any position as a civil authority. Its going to be a while though. Maybe even measured in centuries.

[Jack Weber]

Whats needed is for the middle east to continue development and industrialization. Hopefully this will empower people to boot the church out of any position as a civil authority. Its going to be a while though. Maybe even measured in centuries.

Well yeah,but in the meantime,Islam requires the moderating effect of different forms of worship within the same theocratic belief system...

This happened in Europe and,over a long perod of time,had a calming effect on intolerance within Christianity (with a few notable exceptions)

Edited June 19, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Guest American Woman]

Love the interview he did with Hannity where he claims theres no such thing as a moderate muslim, and that theres no difference between some guy who works on his farm all day and has absolutely nothing to do with any jihad or attacks on anybody is the same as a fanatic. Reasonable stuff! Im wondering if the author created an account here named Bob!

I'll reserve judgement until I've read the book. I'm guessing you'd have an open mind about a book written by an author who created an account here by the name of naomiglover, though, as that would obviously be unbiased. But I'm just an American, so you have to take my opinion with a grain of salt.

At any rate, this is what he actually says: "All Muslims to me are the same. At the end of the day they believe in the god of the koran and they believe that this koran is from that god." So that is the basis for saying all Muslims are the same; he's saying they are the same in their Islamic beliefs. I haven't read/heard where he thinks they are all the same in their actions.

It's interesting, because in Carmen bin Laden's book, Inside the Kingdom: My Life in Saudi Arabia, she basically says the same thing; she says that in her experience, her observation, when/if push comes to shove, Muslims will choose/act on Islam. I don't have the book to give an exact quote because I gave it to my Mom to read, but it stood out in my mind.

Remember, too, that these are people who have lived within Islamic nations, and their opinions are formed by their experiences. Perhaps not all Muslims practice Islam to the same degree, but I think both are referring to the strictest definition of Muslims; Muslims who live by literal translations of the Koran, and I will read what they have to say with interest. I also believe we need to pay attention to what they have to say, which is not to say we have to agree, but I do think it's worth considering what their experiences have led them to ultimately believe; they've had experiences and lived in worlds we have not.

Bottom line. I don't have to agree with everything someone says/believes in order to be interested in their book. By the same token, I don't dismiss everything someone says just because I don't agree with every one of their views.

Edited June 19, 2010 by American Woman

[Remiel]

Sweet! an objective account from.... An Israeli spy, that the Department of Homeland Security is trying to deport for providing material support for a terrorist organization.

I wonder where they are going to deport him to though. Israel? Or Palestine?

[Bob]

It certainly is tragic the the USA is trying to deport this guy after rejecting his request for political asylum. If he is deported, he will certainly return to Israel as his life would be threatened in the Palestinian territories.

[Argus]

Love the interview he did with Hannity where he claims theres no such thing as a moderate muslim, and that theres no difference between some guy who works on his farm all day and has absolutely nothing to do with any jihad or attacks on anybody is the same as a fanatic. Reasonable stuff! Im wondering if the author created an account here named Bob!

I think one of the points where people on the Left fail to appreciate the difference between Muslims and the Christians they know is observation. Most seem to reflexively believe that the way our secular society observes Christianity is, more or less similar to the way your everyday, ordinary Muslim man-on-the-street observes his religion. And my understanding is that couldn't be farther from the truth. Muslim society has no secular core. The entire point of Islam is submission to God, and that is how they live their lives.

If you read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's depiction of a visit to her family I think you would get some idea of just how devoted Muslims are to their religious beliefs, how their religious beliefs overwhelm all other considerations. These are not people who set bombs, just ordinary Muslims.

My stepmother had shrugged her shoulders in charming helplessness. “It is as Allah wills,” she said. “The puddles will dry when it stops raining. Allah brings the rains and Allah makes the sun shine.” My father’s third wife accepted her life as it came to her. Like my mother, she was passive, but her passiveness was different from my mother’s. Both women were steeped in self-pity; both resigned themselves to their circumstances. But my mother cursed, scolded, screamed, demanded, and insulted those she blamed. Sahra’s mom smiled and chided; she cast her eyes down and seemed to be content. Whatever the next day brought was Allah’s choice, and she saw no point in defying events, her husband, or her God. Every sentence ended with Inshallah, “God willing.” That was her method of survival.

Sahra’s black shroud extended beyond the tips of her fingers and trailed on the ground; she sought with every word and gesture to express her submission to Allah’s will and to the authority of men.

Religion has not dominated our lives in the West for generations, but it DOES among Muslims. It is never far from their minds, and they make little or no division between their religious beliefs and how the world needs to be ordered around them. I don't think most secular westerners really quite grasp that.

Edited June 20, 2010 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

Religion has not dominated our lives in the West for generations, but it DOES among Muslims. It is never far from their minds, and they make little or no division between their religious beliefs and how the world needs to be ordered around them. I don't think most secular westerners really quite grasp that.

But Muslims are in the west too. I had Muslim friends whose lives were pretty much identical to mine.

Also, wasn't the family in your example in Somalia ?

[Guest TrueMetis]

But Muslims are in the west too. I had Muslim friends whose lives were pretty much identical to mine.

Also, wasn't the family in your example in Somalia ?

And there are plenty of western Christians, Jews, etc whose lives are dominated by their religion.

Edited June 20, 2010 by TrueMetis

[Bob]

And there are plenty of western Christians, Jews, etc whose lives are dominated by their religion.

So what? You'd have a point if the practise of conservative Judaism and Christianity was similar to the practice conservative Islam.

[Guest TrueMetis]

So what? You'd have a point if the practise of conservative Judaism and Christianity was similar to the practice conservative Islam.

Some of them are. Have you really not noticed?

[dre]

Some of them are. Have you really not noticed?

Religious fundamentalism is a scourge and blight on humanity no matter what form it takes.

[Bob]

Some of them are. Have you really not noticed?

Are you seriously suggesting that Christian fundamentalism is as common among Christians are it is Muslims extremism is among Muslims? Are you suggesting that Christian fundamentalism is comparable to Muslim fundamentalism in its goals and methods? I stopped being surprised by your desperate attempts to apologize for terrorists long ago. When Christians start yelling out "praise Jesus" when blowing themselves up and murdering the infidels EVERY DAY and AROUND THE WORLD, then you'll have a point.

You certainly are a hate-filled and angry person. Why else would you so consistently go around apologizing for murderers and trying to draw moral equivalence between terrorists and conservative Christians?

Perhaps you never went to university and accomplished nothing in life, and that's compelled you to become the way you are. Who knows?

Edited June 20, 2010 by Bob

[Bob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDe3nUdTRcM

A relevant video clip.

[dre]

Are you seriously suggesting that Christian fundamentalism is as common among Christians are it is Muslims extremism is among Muslims? Are you suggesting that Christian fundamentalism is comparable to Muslim fundamentalism in its goals and methods? I stopped being surprised by your desperate attempts to apologize for terrorists long ago. When Christians start yelling out "praise Jesus" when blowing themselves up and murdering the infidels EVERY DAY and AROUND THE WORLD, then you'll have a point.

You certainly are a hate-filled and angry person. Why else would you so consistently go around apologizing for murderers and trying to draw moral equivalence between terrorists and conservative Christians?

Perhaps you never went to university and accomplished nothing in life, and that's compelled you to become the way you are. Who knows?

Christians live in highly structured and secular societies. When they get out of line they get tossed in Jail. Muslims in those same structured societies also behave themselves a lot better, for the same reason. Religious nuttery and religiously motivated idiocy is not tolerated. If they get violent here, the secular state gets violent back, and they get crushed.

People in general behave as well as they are FORCED to.

Then the christian church WAS a civil authority christians were responsible for untold atrocities.

So the trick here is to try to marginalize all religions to the status of a "private club" with about as much power as the cubscouts or girl guides and no authority at all in civil matters. This wont be easy to do, but we could start by providing nations with incentives to secularize.

The other way to fight religious fundamentalism is to try to raise standards of life so that people feel like they have something to lose. For example... you dont see muslims perpetrating car-bombings in the west... and its probably because their cars are worth 30 thousand bux, and theyve been working their asses off to make the payments

Edited June 20, 2010 by dre

[Bob]

Christians live in highly structured and secular societies. When they get out of line they get tossed in Jail. Muslims in those same structured societies also behave themselves a lot better, for the same reason. Religious nuttery and religiously motivated idiocy is not tolerated. If they get violent here, the secular state gets violent back, and they get crushed.

Certainly Muslims in the West are much less involved in fundamentalism and hold more liberal views about the world in which they live based on exposure to competing ideologies. Primarily, they are exposed to the unquestionable moral superiority of Western liberalism. Still, there are problems in liberalizing Muslims. We've seen these problems in the USA and in Europe, as well as in Israel. Unfortunately, we don't crush them as we should. I wish that was the case.

The same is true from Jewish fundamentalists in Israel. Although of course Jewish fundamentalists cannot hold a candle to Islamic fundamentalists with respect to their hate and violence, they still need to be forced into compliance with basic Israeli values. Whether it be their subsidized religious education which doesn't teach fundamentals of math, science, history, physical education, or language... to their exemption from military service: it needs to be stopped. Unfortunately, liberalism in the name of "tolerance" tolerates those whose core values run contrary to the basic values of the society.

People in general behave as well as they are FORCED to.

Then the christian church WAS a civil authority christians were responsible for untold atrocities.

That's a long time ago. The Vatican isn't calling for Jihad against the world in 2010, nor has it been for along time. Christianity, for the most part, has liberalized itself. Islam hasn't.

So the trick here is to try to marginalize all religions to the status of a "private club" with about as much power as the cubscouts or girl guides and no authority at all in civil matters. This wont be easy to do, but we could start by providing nations with incentives to secularize.

Why marginalize a religion that doesn't seek to impose itself on you and whose values and practices are compatible with the universal values of democracy and liberty? Are Jews marching in downtown London calling for Jewish courts to be established in place of the prevailing law? Are conservative Christians murdering hundreds of people in the metros of London, Madrid, or Moscow calling for Jihad against the infidels?

The other way to fight religious fundamentalism is to try to raise standards of life so that people feel like they have something to lose. For example... you dont see muslims perpetrating car-bombings in the west... and its probably because their cars are worth 30 thousand bux, and theyve been working their asses off to make the payments

The standards of living have nothing to do with fundamentalism. Plenty of terrorists have come from extremely wealthy and privileged backgrounds. This is an absolute lie perpetuated by morons. Off the top of my head I can easily list twenty examples of contemporary mass murderers who participated in terrorism, yet were educated professionals from wealthy families. Contemporary terrorism is almost entirely ideological. Much of the world lives in poverty, yet Muslims are almost the exclusive perpetrators of terrorism. Your false supposition fails in light of the facts.

Edited June 20, 2010 by Bob

[dre]

Certainly Muslims in the West are much less involved in fundamentalism and hold more liberal views about the world in which they live based on exposure to competing ideologies. Primarily, they are exposed to the unquestionable moral superiority of Western liberalism. Still, there are problems in liberalizing Muslims. We've seen these problems in the USA and in Europe, as well as in Israel. Unfortunately, we don't crush them as we should. I wish that was the case.

The same is true from Jewish fundamentalists in Israel. Although of course Jewish fundamentalists cannot hold a candle to Islamic fundamentalists with respect to their hate and violence, they still need to be forced into compliance with basic Israeli values. Whether it be their subsidized religious education which doesn't teach fundamentals of math, science, history, physical education, or language... to their exemption from military service: it needs to be stopped. Unfortunately, liberalism in the name of "tolerance" tolerates those whose core values run contrary to the basic values of the society.

That's a long time ago. The Vatican isn't calling for Jihad against the world in 2010, nor has it been for along time. Christianity, for the most part, has liberalized itself. Islam hasn't.

Why marginalize a religion that doesn't seek to impose itself on you and whose values and practices are compatible with the universal values of democracy and liberty? Are Jews marching in downtown London calling for Jewish courts to be established in place of the prevailing law? Are conservative Christians murdering hundreds of people in the metros of London, Madrid, or Moscow calling for Jihad against the infidels?

The standards of living have nothing to do with fundamentalism. Plenty of terrorists have come from extremely wealthy and privileged backgrounds. This is an absolute lie perpetuated by morons. Off the top of my head I can easily list twenty examples of contemporary mass murderers who participated in terrorism, yet were educated professionals from wealthy families. Contemporary terrorism is almost entirely ideological. Much of the world lives in poverty, yet Muslims are almost the exclusive perpetrators of terrorism. Your false supposition fails in light of the facts.

I bet you the average suicide bomber doesnt even make 1000 bux a year US.

Why marginalize a religion that doesn't seek to impose itself on you and whose values and practices are compatible with the universal values of democracy and liberty? Are Jews marching in downtown London calling for Jewish courts to be established in place of the prevailing law? Are conservative Christians murdering hundreds of people in the metros of London, Madrid, or Moscow calling for Jihad against the infidels?

Conservative Christians live in countries that have ALREADY marginalized religion. Thats the whole point. Any by marginalize I dont mean we should stop them from worshipping whatever version of the sky-god myth they happen to subscribe to... I mean we should make sure that they have no role as a civil authority. The problem in a lot of these muslim countries is that the church and the government are basically the same bunch of people.