Natives to win HST concessions from Ottawa

[bloodyminded]

He said 'clueless is an adjective'.And that is what 'clueless' is, an adjective.

No,what he said was "You are not only Leafless but clueless as well".

This is wrong.

And to that I say,FAG you.

It was a small joke, playing on your name. (In essence: "You're not only lacking leaves, but clues as well.") It's obvious, and I don't see the problem with it.

[charter.rights]

It was a small joke, playing on your name. (In essence: "You're not only lacking leaves, but clues as well.") It's obvious, and I don't see the problem with it.

Hence. Leafless is really clueless.

[Leafless]

Hence. Leafless is really clueless.

I think it is more grammatically correct to say, clueless idiot, clueless person, clueless moron than the way you used it. The way I suggested is closer to the dictionary definition of an adjective and noun.

But I think in your case you are a rude, arrogant propagandist in the same manner as 'CANADIEN'.

Culture seems to be a problem in Canada as cultures seem to want their own little segregated society and be seen as important.

It appears francophones,natives and gays and foreign immigrants have received special charter recognition and their own segregated societies at the expense of White, English speaking Canadians.

How long this will last is anyone's guess.

All I know 'CR' is that you hate my guts and I hate yours.

[charter.rights]

All I know 'CR' is that you hate my guts and I hate yours.

What a pedantic thing to say. I don't hate you, and it is unlikely that you could form the capacity to hate me, since you do not know me. What is possible however, is for you to hate the your image of me in your mind, which of course is a delusion created and maintained in your own incontinent thought process.

I'm not arrogant either. It is just that I have access more facts than you. That makes you wrong on this subject most of the time.

Edited June 26, 2010 by charter.rights

[Bonam]

Yes they can, and do have it both ways. Not because they are special, but because we have disturbed their communities and the honour of the Crown demands that native people be provided with the basic necessities of life (although government is increasingly falling short).

Honoring treaties is one thing, but forever "providing" members of a certain race with all of the "basic necessities of life" goes far beyond any treaty. Show me where it says that the natives should in perpetuity be freely provided with food, water, shelter, clothing, education, healthcare, welfare, etc.

[charter.rights]

You might want to study the Supreme Court rulings fro the last 50 years. The perpetual care is built upon numerous cases - too numerous to get into here.

The reality is that native people are not subject to the Charter but are exempted from it. And it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with nationality and the treaties between sovereign nations.

[Bonam]

You might want to study the Supreme Court rulings fro the last 50 years.

Got ya, so it doesn't actually say so in any treaty. It's just the interpretations of recent judges, decades or centuries removed from the time when those treaties were made, and likely with a completely different bias and worldview than the original writers of the treaties.

The perpetual care is built upon numerous cases - too numerous to get into here.

Sure, the same kinds of "cases" that result in precedents like 2 for 1 credit for time served for criminals, automatic pardons for murderers, etc. Just because a judge once ruled something, does not mean that it is just or correct.

The reality is that native people are not subject to the Charter but are exempted from it.

Not subject to it? Do they not legally have the same rights and privileges that the charter affords to other Canadians?

And it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with nationality and the treaties between sovereign nations.

This nationality is defined by ancestry and so is indistinguishable from race.

[charter.rights]

Got ya, so it doesn't actually say so in any treaty. It's just the interpretations of recent judges, decades or centuries removed from the time when those treaties were made, and likely with a completely different bias and worldview than the original writers of the treaties.

Nope. it says so in the treaties. The Supreme Court merely confirms that treaties are to be read a certain way, words have certain meaning and all of it must be in conjunction with oral promises made during their inception. The major problem is that words and phrases had different meaning back then then they do today. As well in order to certify the treaty both parties must have the same understanding of the terms. The SCoC provides the consistency needed to read the treaties properly.

Sure, the same kinds of "cases" that result in precedents like 2 for 1 credit for time served for criminals, automatic pardons for murderers, etc. Just because a judge once ruled something, does not mean that it is just or correct.

You are right to a degree. That is why lower court rulings are overturned by appeals courts and ultimately the Supreme Court. However, once the Supreme Court has ruled on something, that is pretty much it. They will not revisit the same kind of case again and they will use the previous rulings to provide consistency for the next ones.

Not subject to it? Do they not legally have the same rights and privileges that the charter affords to other Canadians?

Nope, not subject to it. Section 25 states that nothing contained anywhere in the Charter can reduce or over-ride aboriginal rights. However, they are entitled to the same protections in the Charter, but are not bound by them where it conflicts with their rights. We cannot use anyof our Charter rights to over-ride theirs.

This nationality is defined by ancestry and so is indistinguishable from race.

Nope. You do understand that Metis and Inuit and First Nations groups have Caucasian and other ethnic peoples as members? It is still possible for a non-native to become a member of a First Nation, and obtain "status" which would provide protection under Section 25. and 35. You are wrong again. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with sovereignty and nationality.

Edited June 26, 2010 by charter.rights

[Leafless]

Honoring treaties is one thing, but forever "providing" members of a certain race with all of the "basic necessities of life" goes far beyond any treaty. Show me where it says that the natives should in perpetuity be freely provided with food, water, shelter, clothing, education, healthcare, welfare, etc.

You can thank Howard Cardinal and his 'Red Paper'in response to Trudeau's 'White Paper'.

Trudeau's 'White Paper' stated:

The year following Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau's rise to power in 1968, his government issued a White Paper on Aboriginal policy that argued that Canada shouldn't negotiate any further treaties with the Native peoples. Trudeau believed treaties were something only signed between sovereign nations. His government also did not agree with Aboriginal land right claims, either, because they were too broad and unspecific.

http://www1.canadiana.org/citm/themes/aboriginals/aboriginals12_e.html

Howard Cardinal exploited Trudeau's 'just society' with ludicrous demands for the benefit of natives with his 'Red Paper'.

Citizens Plus, also known as The Red Paper, 1970

Document Summary:

This is the Aboriginal response to the federal government's White Paper, 1969.

Key Points:

The legislature and constitutional basis of Indian status and rights should be maintained until Aboriginals are prepared and willing to renegotiate them.

The only way to maintain Indian culture is remain as Indians.

Aboriginals already have access to the same services as other Canadians, plus additional rights and privileges that were established by the British North America Act, various treaties and governmental legislation.

Only Aboriginals and Aboriginal organizations should be given the resources and responsibility to determine their own priorities and future development lines. The federal government has a distorted view of treaty rights and is not to be trusted on this issue.

The government wrongly thinks that the Crown owns reserve lands. The Crown merely "holds" such lands, though they belong to Aboriginals. The government also thinks that Aboriginals only can own land in the Old World, European sense of land ownership. Therefore, the Aboriginal peoples should be allowed to control land in a way that respects both their historical and legal rights.

The Indian Act should be reviewed, but not repealed. It should only be reviewed when treaty rights issues are settled and if there is a consensus among Aboriginal peoples on such changes regarding their historical and legal rights.

The Department of Indian and Northern Affairs should cease to exist in its archaic and paternalistic form. A similar federal agency should be established to look more closely at and be more attuned to the needs of the Aboriginal peoples - particularly when it comes to ensuring that treaty and land rights promises are kept.

Aboriginals reject the appointment of a sole commissioner in a Royal Commission, because he will be appointed by the government itself to protect its interests without Aboriginal consultation. The government, instead, should call an "independent, unbiased, unprejudiced" commission that should have the power to bring any witnesses or documents that it or the Aboriginals wish to present. Its judgments should be legally binding.

http://www1.canadiana.org/citm/_textpopups/aboriginals/doc75_e.html

You can basically thank Trudeau's 'just society' for natives obtaining ludicrous, excessive rights in Canada.

Only in Canada you say.

[Mr.Canada]

I hope the government back charges all those Natives who got and cashed a rebate cheque. Since they don't pay taxes they don't get a rebate cheque. Cannot get a rebate for something they aren't paying.

[charter.rights]

I guess silliness just popped in for a visit....

Natives pay PST and so they too would be entitled to a cheque. They just don't pay PST on goods used on the reserves.

I guess your hatred got in the way of making sense.

[bloodyminded]

I guess silliness just popped in for a visit....

Natives pay PST and so they too would be entitled to a cheque. They just don't pay PST on goods used on the reserves.

I guess your hatred got in the way of making sense.

Mr. Canada's Hate List is expanding. "Socialists" (meaning those to the left of Pinochet), gays, atheists, Palestinians, Jews, those who criticize Jews, those who criticize Israel....so I guess disliking Native people is par for the course.

(And frankly, a hell of a lot folks dislike Native people. It's truly strange.)

[Mr.Canada]

Mr. Canada's Hate List is expanding. "Socialists" (meaning those to the left of Pinochet), gays, atheists, Palestinians, Jews, those who criticize Jews, those who criticize Israel....so I guess disliking Native people is par for the course.

(And frankly, a hell of a lot folks dislike Native people. It's truly strange.)

I made no mention of disliking native people in the above post. I dislike individuals not a race as a whole.

Natives are exempt from the HST altogether now. The HST cheques were given out to help with the transition from GST, PSt to the new HST. Since the natives aren't going to pay HST at all they have no reason to get a cheque. I doubt the government will do anything. They don't even have the stones to remove a backhoe blocking a road. So don't worry, your free money will remain. I only mention that natives shouldn't be getting it.

[charter.rights]

I made no mention of disliking native people in the above post. I dislike individuals not a race as a whole.

Natives are exempt from the HST altogether now. The HST cheques were given out to help with the transition from GST, PSt to the new HST. Since the natives aren't going to pay HST at all they have no reason to get a cheque. I doubt the government will do anything. They don't even have the stones to remove a backhoe blocking a road. So don't worry, your free money will remain. I only mention that natives shouldn't be getting it.

Funny how wrong you can be most of the time.

Natives pay GST and PST and they will pay HST after July. They do not have to pay HST if goods are delivered to the reserve but otherwise they pay tax on all other goods and services. Are you suggesting that natives should be treated differently than ordinary Canadians?

Edited June 27, 2010 by charter.rights

[bloodyminded]

I made no mention of disliking native people in the above post. I dislike individuals not a race as a whole.

That's good to know; perhaps I misspoke.

Natives are exempt from the HST altogether now. The HST cheques were given out to help with the transition from GST, PSt to the new HST. Since the natives aren't going to pay HST at all they have no reason to get a cheque. I doubt the government will do anything. They don't even have the stones to remove a backhoe blocking a road. So don't worry, your free money will remain. I only mention that natives shouldn't be getting it.

I don't really get any free money from anyone. Perhaps if I were wealthy, there would be all sorts of ways for me to attain taxpayer dollars.

Edited June 27, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Leafless]

That's good to know; perhaps I misspoke.

So exactly what word did you mispronounce?

[Leafless]

(And frankly, a hell of a lot folks dislike Native people. It's truly strange.)

Why is it strange?

A lot of people dislike Natives, Gays and Francophones because they are ABNORMAL. They reject, in major ways, the established culture, traditions and lifestyles of mainstream Canadians.

[Remiel]

Why is it strange?

A lot of people dislike Natives, Gays and Francophones because they are ABNORMAL. They reject, in major ways, the established culture, traditions and lifestyles of mainstream Canadians.

Well, you have certainly pinned down why we dislike you.

[Shwa]

Why is it strange?

A lot of people dislike Natives, Gays and Francophones because they are ABNORMAL. They reject, in major ways, the established culture, traditions and lifestyles of mainstream Canadians.

You know Leafless, when you post you commit the textual equivalent to that old saying, "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

A lot of people dislike Natives, Gays and Francophones because they are ABNORMAL.

What you are really saying is that "alot of people...are abnormal" which, by the criteria you selected, includes you.

On this basis, it is easy to concur with your opinion. You are indeed ABNORMAL.

[Leafless]

Well, you have certainly pinned down why we dislike you.

I am not here to be liked but am here simply to participate in a forum with my POV.

I must ask you, if you cannot handle different opinions without posting personal insults, then why are you even here?

[Leafless]

You know Leafless, when you post you commit the textual equivalent to that old saying, "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

And this coming from a poster who's message, in block letters, appears on every post he makes:

"ISRAEL ANOTHER MIDDLE EAST TERRORIST STATE"

You are a joke.

Correction....make that a sick joke.

What you are really saying is that "alot of people...are abnormal" which, by the criteria you selected, includes you.

Not likely, as I am a mainstream Christian, heterosexual English speaking Canadian who believes in all the values, traditions this country was built on.....before being altered by Trudeau that is.

On this basis, it is easy to concur with your opinion. You are indeed ABNORMAL.

Your radical, twisted Indian logic amounts to nothing more than another personal insult...a sign of the unintelligent.

[Shwa]

And this coming from a poster who's message, in block letters, appears on every post he makes:

"ISRAEL ANOTHER MIDDLE EAST TERRORIST STATE"

You are a joke.

Correction....make that a sick joke.

Show me one post of mine where I have that message on "every post" I make.

Not likely, as I am a mainstream Christian, heterosexual English speaking Canadian who believes in all the values, traditions this country was built on.....before being altered by Trudeau that is.

English speaking maybe, but not too sound in the English writing department. Obviously. And, since you have previously proven that the criteria by which abnormal is defined are you now advocating that all other mainstream-Christian-heterosexual-English-speaking-Canadian-who-believes-in-all-the-values-traditions-this-country-was-built-on are abnormals? I don't think they would appreciate the sentiment, but if that is how you admit you see things, well, ok....

Your radical, twisted Indian logic amounts to nothing more than another personal insult...a sign of the unintelligent.

Oooo, now I am an Indian! Where do I sign up for the tax rebate?

[Remiel]

A lot of people dislike Natives, Gays and Francophones because they are ABNORMAL. They reject, in major ways, the established culture, traditions and lifestyles of mainstream Canadians.

I must ask you, if you cannot handle different opinions without posting personal insults, then why are you even here?

You have a funny idea of what counts as an insult. You could of just used " abnormal " but you had to emphasize it, " ABNORMAL " , which makes it abundantly clear that it is you who are insulting.

[Mr.Canada]

Funny how wrong you can be most of the time.

Natives pay GST and PST and they will pay HST after July. They do not have to pay HST if goods are delivered to the reserve but otherwise they pay tax on all other goods and services. Are you suggesting that natives should be treated differently than ordinary Canadians?

They pay no taxes at all. All they need to do is flash their Status card and blamo, no taxes. Don't try to lie again. As long as they have their status card they pay zero taxes on any item in any store.

I don't know why you'd try to blatently lie to me. Ask your beloved red men if you don't believe me.

Thanks.

[charter.rights]

They pay no taxes at all. All they need to do is flash their Status card and blamo, no taxes. Don't try to lie again. As long as they have their status card they pay zero taxes on any item in any store.

I don't know why you'd try to blatently lie to me. Ask your beloved red men if you don't believe me.

Thanks.

Geez. You open your texting again and again you are wrong. 85% of status native people live off reserve in major urban centres and pay every tax that you and I do (although you likely don't pay income tax on welfare). If we include non-status people then we see the percentages go up to 95%. Even if you were trying to generalize, you are factually wrong. Native people do pay taxes.

We have discussed how one company at Six Nations pumps $150 million in taxes into the Canadian system. There are many such companies. First Nations Bank, Peace Hills trust etc. pay as much tax as any banking institution in Canada. Other corporations owned by native people pay tax equal to any Canadian corporation regardless if they are located on reserve. As well native people earning a living off reserve are subject to income tax and tax on purchase - GST, PST and income just like any other Canadian. So again, even if you are trying to generalize about status natives you are factually wrong.

If this is a deliberate obfuscation, then I would suggest that you are the liar. Or is it just that you are too stupid to look up the facts?

Edited June 28, 2010 by charter.rights