Myth of the two-state solution.

[myata]

It's shocking to you ...

No it's not shocking in any way, any informed individual would be aware of these views, as well as their numerous and tragic manifestations in the humanity's history. You're just one of the long list. But I wouldn't aspire to the company of your spiritual peers, it's obviously quite grotesque.

because ...

Yes sounds like a valid justification.

[Bob]

No it's not shocking in any way, any informed individual would be aware of these views, as well as their numerous and tragic manifestations in the humanity's history. You're just one of the long list. But I wouldn't aspire to the company of your spiritual peers, it's obviously quite grotesque.

Yes sounds like a valid justification.

Don't pretend you have the moral high-ground by opposing the removal of a hostile population because of the apparent inhumanity of the process, while not recognizing the alternative - more of the same terrorism against Israelis and resulting wars. In your world, the right of Palestinians to live where they are trumps Israeli rights to stay alive. The fact remains that the Palestinian presence in Israel KILLS Israelis. They are a hazard of the region like earthquakes in California or disease in Africa. Deporting them to the lands of their brothers and sisters would save lives on both sides.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Bob

[bloodyminded]

Don't pretend you have the moral high-ground by opposing the removal of a hostile population because of the apparent inhumanity of the process, while not recognizing the alternative - more of the same terrorism against Israelis and resulting wars. In your world, the right of Palestinians to live where they are trumps Israeli rights to stay alive. The fact remains that the Palestinian presence in Israel KILLS Israelis. They are a hazard of the region like earthquakes in California or disease in Africa. Deporting them to the lands of their brothers and sisters would save lives on both sides.

"Disease"?

I sense an uncomfortable line approaching in this conversation.

Another poster spoke of "millions of savages"...later claiming he was referring only to the Hamas leadership.....

I'm wondering if anti-Arab racism has increased in the past ten years or so, or if it's simply come out of the closet.

[GostHacked]

You can the plead ignorance - you don't know what Zionism is. If you DO know what Zionism is, however, and are opposed to it, you might as well go all out and become an anti-semite and go to Holocaust denial forums.

If you want to label me as such, I can't stop you. But it won't help promote your view at all.

Oppression of Jews is a natural consequence of living in a Muslim country, given what the religion teaches about Jews.

Not just jews, but christians, catholics, ect ect ect.

This falsehood you're advancing is intended to support the lie that conflict is the result of the Jewish arrival in pre-Israel Palestine and subsequent establishment of Israel. Of course this is true, but this is due to the Arab and Muslim rejection of Jewish self-determination.

So I am right, but for the wrong reasons. Gotcha.

Following your logic, the Middle East would be peaceful is the Jews simply left or relinquished their autonomy. Sorry, not gonna happen. We won't accept oppression as a means to achieve your perception of "peace".

They never had it before the creation of modern Israel. Who's oppressing who now?

I think you need to read up on the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing. They're not exactly the same thing. To suggest that Israel building a separation barrier between it and its enemies is ethnic cleansing is simply absurd.

You do know that the term 'ethnic cleansing' is the P.C. version of genocide right? This is why you don't hear about genocides anywhere, it is all just ethnic cleansing, because the other people are dirty.

[Bob]

"Disease"?

I sense an uncomfortable line approaching in this conversation.

Another poster spoke of "millions of savages"...later claiming he was referring only to the Hamas leadership.....

I'm wondering if anti-Arab racism has increased in the past ten years or so, or if it's simply come out of the closet.

Oh, it's anti-Arab to be opposed to what they do? For accuracy's sake I'll throw it out there that I honestly do not believe that all Arabs are alike, but let's not put our heads in the sand and pretend that murder and violence is common (political opponents, religious apostates, suspected Israeli "collaborators", the families of these persons, etc), arbitrary arrest and detention, advocating hatred of Jews and America in schools and other institutions, as well as an outright rejection of any "peace deal" that includes Israel remaining a Jewish country. Do you need to me to link you to articles outlining the thousands of rockets shot into Israel just since 2006? What about the three murders (three separate incidents) of Israelis from terrorist just in the past two months? How about the Ramallah lynching? What about successful and unsuccessful attempts to kidnap Israelis near border crossings? How about celebrations of terrorism like 9/11? What about Palestinian talk shows equating Jews to pigs? How about misogynistic attitudes?

Pretending we're all alike just makes you look like a fool. You don't know anything about Palestinians or Arabs, yet you get offended when social trends from this group are brought to the forefront and criticized. If you support Palestinians without calling for Palestinian cultural change, you're supporting people who hold values entirely contrary to the values of Canada. I'm going by the very words (and actions) of the Palestinian leadership, both Hamas, the PA, and the long-list of other organizations. If there was a political party in Canada that ran on a platform resembling Palestinian or Arab cultural trends from the Middle East you'd be first in line calling for its dismantlement.

[bloodyminded]

Oh, it's anti-Arab to be opposed to what they do?

The Palestinians as a "disease" is not what they do, it's what they are.

When someone calls the Jewish people a "disease" you'd see this is blatant, outright, unambiguous bigotry. Rightly so.

Edited June 16, 2010 by bloodyminded

[dre]

The Palestinians as a "disease" is not what they do, it's what they are.

When someone calls the Jewish people a "disease" you'd see this is blatant, outright, unambiguous bigotry. Rightly so.

Yeah the irony there is of coure so thick youd need a chainsaw to cut it.

And of course when people oppose anything that Israel does Bob is the first one to jump up and down screaming racism.

Edited June 16, 2010 by dre

[Bob]

If you want to label me as such, I can't stop you. But it won't help promote your view at all.

Not just jews, but christians, catholics, ect ect ect.

So I am right, but for the wrong reasons. Gotcha.

They never had it before the creation of modern Israel. Who's oppressing who now?

You do know that the term 'ethnic cleansing' is the P.C. version of genocide right? This is why you don't hear about genocides anywhere, it is all just ethnic cleansing, because the other people are dirty.

Your solution - the Helen Thomas argument. If there were no Jews in Israel, certainly there would be peace, right?

Stop lying about Jewish-Muslim brotherhood in pre-Israel. Jews were oppressed, plain and simple. Then stop lying about the causes of the conflict being Israeli expansionism post 1967. The hostility of Arabs to Jews began decades before the establishment of Israel, let alone decades before any occupation took place resulting from the Six-Day War, and subsequent settlements.

I'm going by the statements and actions of the Palestinians (and Arab world) - they are not opposed to Israeli settlements, they are opposed to Israel's existence as a Jewish state. When the Arabs rejected the partition plan of '47 there were no settlements. When Arab armies invaded Israel in '48, there were no settlements. When there were border flare-ups between '48 and '56, there were no settlements. Hamas, and the many other terrorist groups in Gaza and Judea/Samaria, do not have a beef with settlements - they have a beef with Israel in its entirety. They say they are sworn to armed struggle (terrorism to honest people, "noble resistance" to our enemies) and then follow their on their commitments by murdering Jews. Jews have been being murdered many decades before any "settlement". You can stop with your bullshit, now.

[naomiglover]

"Disease"?

I sense an uncomfortable line approaching in this conversation.

Another poster spoke of "millions of savages"...later claiming he was referring only to the Hamas leadership.....

I'm wondering if anti-Arab racism has increased in the past ten years or so, or if it's simply come out of the closet.

It's desperation.

The number of Israeli/Jewish pacifists who are realizing Israel's approach has brought nothing but insecurity and a negative view from the world have increased. The desperation and fear of losing their grip has extremist fascists, who are in the minority, like Bob (and Bonam and the "Radical leftist Lawyer", jbg, who seems to agree with whatever he says) screaming at the top of their lungs. Their true colours are shining brighter than ever.

[Bob]

The Palestinians as a "disease" is not what they do, it's what they are.

When someone calls the Jewish people a "disease" you'd see this is blatant, outright, unambiguous bigotry. Rightly so.

So all cultures and peoples are equal? No culture or group of people can be criticized for the behaviours and values it represents?

[naomiglover]

So all cultures and peoples are equal? No culture or group of people can be criticized for the behaviours and values it represents?

Bob. I think you need to give yourself a timeout. Your propaganda machine is broken.

You have totally gone off the script and are now sharing what you are really feeling. This will not help your cause and agenda. You need to stay within the narrative.

Your comments would confuse Hitler. He would be thinking why would a Jew be talking about a group of people the way I talked about Jews.

[dre]

So all cultures and peoples are equal? No culture or group of people can be criticized for the behaviours and values it represents?

Jeez do you even read the posts youre replying to?

[bloodyminded]

So all cultures and peoples are equal? No culture or group of people can be criticized for the behaviours and values it represents?

Again, assuming an elementary comprehension of English--and yours is obviously not only elementary--you weren't talking about behaviour.

Again: if someone were to refer to the Jewish people as a disease, you know you'd consider it antisemitism. Do you dispute this? And in such a case, I would agree with you.

Naomi is right; you have, no doubt unintentionally, made a slip-up in your well-studied propaganda methods.

Or, conversely, you might say, "Jeez...I messed up a little," and develop some understanding for those you too promiscuously deem to be antisemites.

Edited June 16, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Argus]

I'm wondering if anti-Arab racism has increased in the past ten years or so, or if it's simply come out of the closet.

You know, if a whole group of people wanted to kill me and my family I would hate them and it wouldn't be based on anything like racism.

Are you that unimaginative you are actually incapable of understanding why Israelis would hate Arabs? I mean, really? It's just cause, like they're racists?

[bloodyminded]

You know, if a whole group of people wanted to kill me and my family I would hate them and it wouldn't be based on anything like racism.

Are you that unimaginative you are actually incapable of understanding why Israelis would hate Arabs? I mean, really? It's just cause, like they're racists?

Leaving aside the two-way street factor of this contentious subject: if someone here were to call the Jewish people a "disease"...you wouldn't consider that to be antisemitic?

Edited June 16, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Bob]

Again, assuming an elementary comprehension of English--and yours is obviously not only elementary--you weren't talking about behaviour.

Again: if someone were to refer to the Jewish people as a disease, you know you'd consider it antisemitism. Do you dispute this? And in such a case, I would agree with you.

Naomi is right; you have, no doubt unintentionally, made a slip-up in your well-studied propaganda methods.

Or, conversely, you might say, "Jeez...I messed up a little," and develop some understanding for those you too promiscuously deem to be antisemites.

No, I stand by my position. Dominant themes in Arab culture is incompatible with Israel. Arab political parties in Israel openly show contempt for Jewish nationalism and solidarity with Israel's enemies. Do I even need to get into the anti-semitism and terrorism that's rampant in the Arab world? Many Israeli-Arab identify themselves as Palestinian, which attaches them to a society that denies the Holocaust, glorifies martyrdom when murdering Jews (the infidels), openly states and works towards the destruction of Israel, and on and on and on.

Look at how much controversy there was over Lieberman's proposal of a loyalty oath to all Israeli citizens as a condition of citizenship. Why would such a proposal be so opposed to if not because of Arab disloyalty to Israel? As things are today, Arabs, on the whole, are not compatible with Israel.

Israeli society is not one which celebrates murder and death, which teaches its children that Arabs are pigs and subhuman, that persecutes political opponents and religious difference, that engages in honour killings, that denies the Holocaust, etc, etc, etc. Maybe it's a generational thing, but as things are now, I'm not going to apologize for stating the obvious incompatibility between liberal Israeli society and Islamic fundamentalist society of Palestinians (and the broader Arab-Muslim collective).

[dre]

You know, if a whole group of people wanted to kill me and my family I would hate them and it wouldn't be based on anything like racism.

Are you that unimaginative you are actually incapable of understanding why Israelis would hate Arabs? I mean, really? It's just cause, like they're racists?

The problem is that cuts both ways, and thats why this has gone on for so long. Both sides have a lot of real and valid grievances. Both sides have a lot of blood on their hands.

And even though most palestinians and Israelis are just victims of this whole thing and have nothing to do with its cause and perpetuation, the current situation makes it very hard for anyone but hard-liners to have their voices heard. And the militants on both sides LOVE this situation. If there was ever peace then the hawks would lose their pulpit and be told to shut the fuck up.

[bloodyminded]

No, I stand by my position. Dominant themes in Arab culture is incompatible with Israel. Arab political parties in Israel openly show contempt for Jewish nationalism and solidarity with Israel's enemies. Do I even need to get into the anti-semitism and terrorism that's rampant in the Arab world? Many Israeli-Arab identify themselves as Palestinian, which attaches them to a society that denies the Holocaust, glorifies martyrdom when murdering Jews (the infidels), openly states and works towards the destruction of Israel, and on and on and on.

Look at how much controversy there was over Lieberman's proposal of a loyalty oath to all Israeli citizens as a condition of citizenship. Why would such a proposal be so opposed to if not because of Arab disloyalty to Israel? As things are today, Arabs, on the whole, are not compatible with Israel.

Israeli society is not one which celebrates murder and death, which teaches its children that Arabs are pigs and subhuman, that persecutes political opponents and religious difference, that engages in honour killings, that denies the Holocaust, etc, etc, etc. Maybe it's a generational thing, but as things are now, I'm not going to apologize for stating the obvious incompatibility between liberal Israeli society and Islamic fundamentalist society of Palestinians (and the broader Arab-Muslim collective).

You keep eliding your racist remark, as if it's trivial. And if it is trivial, why do you get so exercised about the subject generally?

[dre]

You keep eliding your racist remark, as if it's trivial. And if it is trivial, why do you get so exercised about the subject generally?

Im hoping thats a rhetorical question because the answer is pretty damn obvious

[bloodyminded]

Im hoping thats a rhetorical question because the answer is pretty damn obvious

I'm just naive enough to be astonished that both Bob and Argus are trying to convince me that this racism is okey dokey.

[Bob]

Leaving aside the two-way street factor of this contentious subject: if someone here were to call the Jewish people a "disease"...you wouldn't consider that to be antisemitic?

I didn't call Arabs a disease, what I said was that Arabs in Palestine and surrounding countries do not want peace (they themselves say they don't want peace, let alone the endless acts of violence at home and abroad), and are therefore an occupational hazard of the area. We know that as time goes own cultures can evolve, hopefully Arab culture will liberalize as time goes on, but as of now it isn't compatible with Israeli values. Allow me to clarify, many prevalent components of Arab and Muslim culture are akin to natural disasters like earthquakes and epidemics. More specifically, it is these components of Arab and Muslim culture (primarily anti-semitism) which kill Israelis, like earthquakes kill people in California or famine in Africa. What I meant to write was that it is components of Arab and Muslim culture that can need to be excised, at least in order to have real peace and reconciliation. I don't believe there is something inherently flawed in their DNA.

It's easy for you, thousands of kilometres from the conflict to sit and judge and pretend everyone is equal and all cultures are of equal merit. It's quite a bit different when your friends and family are murdered because they are Jewish, in accordance with the values of another culture. If your "balanced" approach were true, why is the Palestinian leadership totalitarian? Why does Israel stand alone in the Middle East with respect to human rights for its citizens (political, social, religious, and economic freedoms)? The reason is because of the huge chasm of difference between our values, a chasm you refuse to acknowledge exists.

I guess I'm unsurprised, how can I expect non-Jews to care about the preservation of Jewish identity and statehood? Blacks didn't get civil rights in the USA because non-blacks chose one day to become enlightened, they had to work for it and mobilize on their own. The same is true in a sense for Jews, non-Jews cannot be expected to really understand what we're dealing with. You don't have a stake in it, you don't have the same degree of motivation to learn about it or understand it, so your ignorance is understandable. Basically, you don't care about these issues. Kinda like my ignorance about events in the Sudan or Brazil (or countless other issues and places) - it's mostly the result of me not having a sense of connection to these lands, so my knowledge of these places and associated issues is superficial.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Bob

[Bob]

The problem is that cuts both ways, and thats why this has gone on for so long. Both sides have a lot of real and valid grievances. Both sides have a lot of blood on their hands.

And even though most palestinians and Israelis are just victims of this whole thing and have nothing to do with its cause and perpetuation, the current situation makes it very hard for anyone but hard-liners to have their voices heard. And the militants on both sides LOVE this situation. If there was ever peace then the hawks would lose their pulpit and be told to shut the fuck up.

Peace was offered to Palestinians. Read Dennis Ross' "The Missing Peace". 97% of the West Bank, all of Gaza, and EJ as the new capital of Palestine - Arafat not only rejected it but was complicit in the following intifada. They don't want peace. At least Arafat didn't want peace.

It was also offered in 1947.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Bob

[dre]

Peace was offered to Palestinians. Read Dennis Ross' "The Missing Peace". 97% of the West Bank, all of Gaza, and EJ as the new capital of Palestine - Arafat not only rejected it but was complicit in the following intifada. They don't want peace. At least Arafat didn't want peace.

It was also offered in 1947.

They put conditions into the offer that they knew Arafat could not accept. Permanent control of water resources by Israel, permanent overflight rights, "secuity roads" and a host of other things that would make it impossible for the new state to function. A more reasonable offer was presented by Israel at the Taba summit, and the Paletinians accepted this in principle and agreed to negotiate around that, but Israel cancelled negotiations when Ariel Sharon was elected.

In any case the hardliners on NEITHER side want peace.

Theres no need for complex negotiations. Israel must withdraw from land that that it has no legal claim to territorial sovereignty over and not try to keep parts of that land or maintain rights to resources on that land. The Palestinians must stop all hostilities against and recognize the state of Isreal.

While many of the average people on both sides would support this, the hardliners on each side have shown no willingness to do so.

Edited June 16, 2010 by dre

[bloodyminded]

I didn't call Arabs a disease

Ah. Someone else is posting under your name.

It's easy for you, thousands of kilometres from the conflict to sit and judge and pretend everyone is equal and all cultures are of equal merit.

But I don't think this; what I do think is that human beings are all innately of equal merit.

It's quite a bit different when your friends and family are murdered because they are Jewish, in accordance with the values of another culture.

No doubt, but equally obvious is that Palestinians would say the same thing.

If your "balanced" approach were true, why is the Palestinian leadership totalitarian? Why does Israel stand alone in the Middle East with respect to human rights for its citizens (political, social, religious, and economic freedoms)? The reason is because of the huge chasm of difference between our values, a chasm you refuse to acknowledge exists.

But I can't stand oppressive Islamists; further, that I can't stand them is based on principle, not on a politicized embrace of perpetual victimhood that allows me to not only ignore the crimes of my favoured state...but to defend and even embrace them.

I guess I'm unsurprised, how can I expect non-Jews to care about the preservation of Jewish identity and statehood? Blacks didn't get civil rights in the USA because non-blacks chose one day to become enlightened, they had to work for it and mobilize on their own. The same is true in a sense for Jews, non-Jews cannot be expected to really understand what we're dealing with. You don't have a stake in it, you don't have the same degree of motivation to learn about it or understand it, so your ignorance is understandable. Basically, you don't care about these issues. Kinda like my ignorance about events in the Sudan or Brazil (or countless other issues and places) - it's mostly the result of me not having a sense of connection to these lands, so my knowledge of these places and associated issues is superficial.

I get this, I really do, but you are demanding total support for every action of the Israeli state, a state which is first and foremost a country, a geopolitical entity; and surely to Godzilla there exists no State which should be free of criticism, even condemnation.

People are oversensitive about Israel, in large part because they fail to see it first as a geopolitical entity...that's it's primary attribute, not the dream, however important and potent, that is attached to it.

And, as you say, the ignorance flows both ways. For example, your continual accusaitons of antisemitism, to the point where "most" critics of Israel simply hate the Jews, is profoundly offensive to me. And I think you simply cannot see or understand this.

Edited June 16, 2010 by bloodyminded

[myata]

They are a hazard of the region like earthquakes in California or disease in Africa.

Yes even that terminology (highlight mine -m) is familiar, you aren't inventing anything new even here.