When is Poland going to give back East Prussia to Germany?

[WIP]

My7 view is that getting anything back to some historical state is useless. If everyone went "back" to where they cam e from the Great Rift Valley of Africa would get quite crowded.

Isn't that the problem with the Aliyah? Too many Jews who's ancestors lived there at one time, want to move in, and new ways keep having to be found to move Arabs out. In my family's example, the ties to the homeland were considered lost after the first generation, but if every German descendant decided that they have a birthright to move back to Prussia, then what would happen to Poles who have moved into the area since 1918, and also the Russians and Lithuanians etc. who moved into former Polish territory after the Soviet Union arbitrarily changed their boundaries after 1945?

[Jack Weber]

When is Poland giving back West Prussia,Pomerania and Lower Silesia?

Most,if not all,were given to the Poles by the Soviets after WW2.

The city in Germany where my Great Grandfather came from is now part of Poland,yet my family ancestry is German...

[myata]

The subtle and really easy to overlook difference between these cases would be their space-time relationship to the current observable reality. While one is in the past the other is still happening. I.e. being actively perpetrated, perhaps with a view to change ethnic composition of population for the purpose of establishing control over it. Which in other times and places we could call no less than a "Crime Against Humanity" and execute a noble and liberating actions about. That's when the stars happen to align in the true direction and we happen to be looking the right way.

[DogOnPorch]

The subtle and really easy to overlook difference between these cases would be their space-time relationship to the current observable reality. While one is in the past the other is still happening. I.e. being actively perpetrated, perhaps with a view to change ethnic composition of population for the purpose of establishing control over it. Which in other times and places we could call no less than a "Crime Against Humanity" and execute a noble and liberating actions about. That's when the stars happen to align in the true direction and we happen to be looking the right way.

OK..if we're going to go down that raod, the Palestinian Arab's first leader was a Nazi general in the SS and a major participant in the Holocaust. His nephew Yasser took over the helm in 1964...now Hezbollah and Hamas carry the facist torch. Why do we kiss ass to the movement of a former Nazi?

[jbg]

Isn't that the problem with the Aliyah? Too many Jews who's ancestors lived there at one time, want to move in, and new ways keep having to be found to move Arabs out.

The Jews are a unique case. They were quite settled into Europe prior to the turn of the last century but events from roughly 1890 to 1945 made their continuing residence there untenable (or terminated).

Given the refusal of the English-speaking democracies to accept even the straggling, pitiable survivors (called, at the time, displaced persons or "DP's") Aliyah became a matter of necessity. The Arabs were at the time a largely nomadic people occupying (with gaps for Persians, Kurds and others) much of Northern Africa and the Near East. Aliyah was thus a "least bad" solution.

[myata]

OK..if we're going to go down that raod, ...

No, it's totally different "raod". That has nothing to do with the current, observable space-time. Everything to do with every one last unbelievable straw to apologise and defend undefendable (from the lofty moral position of Civilized Democracy) blatantly aggressive and provocative persistent and ongoing acts.

[DogOnPorch]

No, it's totally different "raod". That has nothing to do with the current, observable space-time. Everything to do with every one last unbelievable straw to apologise and defend undefendable (from the lofty moral position of Civilized Democracy) blatantly aggressive and provocative persistent and ongoing acts.

OK...you also hate Israel. You don't see the toxic irony of the Grand Mufti/Holocaust/Palestinian movement. Would it be easier to understand if the Mufti was substituted with another famous Nazi?

[myata]

OK...you also hate Israel.

Yeah right there's precisely one universally correct answer to any question.

[WIP]

The Jews are a unique case. They were quite settled into Europe prior to the turn of the last century but events from roughly 1890 to 1945 made their continuing residence there untenable (or terminated).

Given the refusal of the English-speaking democracies to accept even the straggling, pitiable survivors (called, at the time, displaced persons or "DP's") Aliyah became a matter of necessity. The Arabs were at the time a largely nomadic people occupying (with gaps for Persians, Kurds and others) much of Northern Africa and the Near East. Aliyah was thus a "least bad" solution.

If we go back to Theodore Herzl and the original modern Zionist Movement, they were very secular in their justification of forming a Jewish state. I haven't read a great deal of their writing, but it comes across that they were using scripture for historical rights to the land, rather than some sort of divine right that exists in many minds today.

The Arabs who lived in that area before the fall of the Ottoman Empire did not have a national identity as Palestinian...but the same could be said for most Arabs living under Turkish control. Identity was more closely connected with tribe and the cities they lived in, or were near to. But that started changing after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and the biggest error in judgment made by a succession of Israeli governments, was the denial of a Palestinian identity. It started coming together around the same time that other Arab nationalist movements were trying to create their own nation-states. I remember Golda Meir telling Anwar Sadat that there was no such thing as a "Palestinian." If they thought the problem would go away...it didn't! Another major blunder was thinking that a good strategy to use against the PLO was to encourage the formation of radical Islamic groups....which ended up turning into Hamas - an enemy that can't be negotiated with.

All water under the bridge I suppose! Right now, finding a peaceful settlement between a Hamas-dominated Palestine and Orthodox Jewish-dominated Israel looks pretty close to impossible. But even if the hardliners have resolved themselves to an unending state of war, Israel is going to lose control through population demographics unless they try to raise the stakes higher and force Palestinians out.

[DogOnPorch]

The history of Palestine minus the Grand Mufti...well done.

[Bonam]

But even if the hardliners have resolved themselves to an unending state of war, Israel is going to lose control through population demographics unless they try to raise the stakes higher and force Palestinians out.

This particular issue is overstated. In Israel proper, the Jewish population still makes up the vast majority (~75%) and is rapidly growing, both from high birth rates (one of the very highest for any first world country) as well as from continued immigration of Jews from around the world. The Arab (btw, Israeli Arabs aren't necessarily Palestinians) population is growing more quickly, but it has a long way to go. Frankly, demographic change of this sort is probably going to become an issue in Europe before it does in Israel. Either Europe will find a way to deal with it, in which case Israel can adopt the same measures, or Europe will be thrown into turmoil as a result of it, in which case Israel will see itself as justified in taking more radical measures to prevent similar turmoil.

[WIP]

This particular issue is overstated. In Israel proper, the Jewish population still makes up the vast majority (~75%)

By "Israel Proper" are you referring to the boundaries before the 1967 Six Day War? If so, back at that time, the Jewish population of Israel was almost 90%. But it's a moot point anyway if governments like Netanyahu refuse to give up the West Bank.

and is rapidly growing, both from high birth rates (one of the very highest for any first world country)

Not as high as Arab birth rates apparently....While withdrawal from Gaza and most of the West Bank-with their Palestinian Arab population of between 2.5 million to 3.8 million*-may be necessary to maintain Israel's Jewish majority, it may well not be sufficient to ensure a Jewish state. That's because Israel's own Arab minority has been growing as a percentage of the country's total population, and continuing a process of "Palestinianization."

In 2004, the total population grew by 1.8 percent, or 121,000 persons. But while the Jewish sector grew at a 1.4 percent rate, the Arab sector expanded by three percent (Muslims at 3.3 percent). Even though total fertility rates among Israeli Arab women have declined, and among Jewish women recently increased, a significant disparity remains-4.4 for Israeli Muslims, 2.6 for Israeli Jews. Given that Israeli Jews are older, Israeli Arabs younger-the median age for Jews is 30.5, for Arabs 19.6, Israel's Arab population can be expected to expand in comparison to the Jewish sector, absent a significant new wave of Jewish immigration, for some years. http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=2181

as well as from continued immigration of Jews from around the world. The Arab (btw, Israeli Arabs aren't necessarily Palestinians) population is growing more quickly, but it has a long way to go.

Apparently this demographics issue is part of a big political dispute in Israel between Netanyahu's Likud and the Kadima Party. Ariel Sharon believed demographics was going to become a problem and set out to pull out of Gaza and build a fence in the West Bank to carve out settlements that Israel wanted to keep after pulling out of Palestinian areas. Netanyahu's group think they can have it all! But if the Aliyah is going to preserve Jewish domination, where are all of the people going to live? Are they going to reclaim the sea like Holland did! There has to be a limit somewhere to how many people can live on a fixed parcel of land.

The Likud is dominated by religious parties who think some sort of divine intervention will save them from disaster...unfortunately their Christian Zionist backers in America, who fund a lot of the building of new settlements, believe that disaster is imminent, and they are helping to usher in the end times.

[Borg]

I'd say right around the same time that Turkey gives Constantinople back to Rome.

Or, Croatia gives land back to Serbia?

There are dozens of examples around the world - but Israel is the target - and that is the difference

Borg

[jbg]

Apparently this demographics issue is part of a big political dispute in Israel between Netanyahu's Likud and the Kadima Party. Ariel Sharon believed demographics was going to become a problem and set out to pull out of Gaza and build a fence in the West Bank to carve out settlements that Israel wanted to keep after pulling out of Palestinian areas. Netanyahu's group think they can have it all! But if the Aliyah is going to preserve Jewish domination, where are all of the people going to live? Are they going to reclaim the sea like Holland did! There has to be a limit somewhere to how many people can live on a fixed parcel of land.

The Likud is dominated by religious parties who think some sort of divine intervention will save them from disaster...unfortunately their Christian Zionist backers in America, who fund a lot of the building of new settlements, believe that disaster is imminent, and they are helping to usher in the end times.

WIP, I agree with a large part of your analysis. The way I see it is that onus should be on the Arab side to seek peace rather than the Israelis to "push on a string" and hope that by returning land in non-recognizing Arabs the Arabs will suddenly embrace peace and progress.

The Arabs should understand that their undeclared war against Israel could turn into full-blown war, and the Arabs who do not assimilate into Israeli life could be driven out.

Or, Croatia gives land back to Serbia?

There are dozens of examples around the world - but Israel is the target - and that is the difference

What I don't get is the West's death wish.The West eats its own while the medieval and totalitarian sides are self-confident.

We as the West don't have to plot out a losing path.