Sex Ed taught in Grade1 now!

[wyly]

It's different if you are applying within your own field. Your age can be an asset as it is an indicator of experience. However, when your field is gone and you are trying for a position with something else as soon as they realize your age its over! There seems to be an attitude that they would rather have a younger worker to get more years out of him or her. I found this amusing, since history shows that after a few years that youngster would likely either be laid off or have moved on to a better job anyway!

Just how many of us older folks do you think call centres could hire, Michael? Besides, I thought all the call centre jobs were in India.

you're right some older workers would often be the better hire, my bodies all worn and broken but I never met a young guy that could get more work done in a day than me...but for an employer who doesn't know you and he/she sees a grizzled old fart apply and a young kid with the same qualifications other than experience who are they going to choose? they know the old guy is not going to around for long but there's a chance they young guy maybe be around for 20-30 years...

and if retraining is a factor they just won't invest time and money in an old guy who'll be gone soon...and I can't blame them for that...

[Michael Hardner]

I would agree with wyly, Michael.

What other fields have you tried ?

However, when your field is gone and you are trying for a position with something else as soon as they realize your age its over! There seems to be an attitude that they would rather have a younger worker to get more years out of him or her. I found this amusing, since history shows that after a few years that youngster would likely either be laid off or have moved on to a better job anyway!

Maybe you can find a field that is in high demand ?

Just how many of us older folks do you think call centres could hire, Michael? Besides, I thought all the call centre jobs were in India.

Call centres in my old town hire any age.

[Michael Hardner]

when the economy tanks no one but the wealthy or with secure jobs does renovations...as I said I've spent a liftime in construction industry when things slow down the first out of work are those in construction....

Did construction slow down during this recession ? It sure doesn't seem like it. I know people who have had trouble finding people to do renos.

real estate is poor example a few pirates get very rich but it's not a stable career choice I'd recomend for my kids...

There seems to be a lot of money around, though. I wonder what they do ?

[Wild Bill]

What other fields have you tried ?

Maybe you can find a field that is in high demand ?

Call centres in my old town hire any age.

Well, I tried all sorts of sales and distribution jobs, just for products other than electronics, like electrical, mechanical and even general retail. Tried Home Depots and even WalMart. Went to a job fair for a local grocery chain. All were a no dice scenario. I did learn to thin out my resume. Some interviewers told me straight out that I was over-qualified, implying that they thought I would leave them if a job in my old industry came up.

I even tried back at a firm where I was a construction inspector in my youth. Unfortunately, in Hamilton and the surrounding area there is little construction going on.

At my age and with a few minor medical problems typical for my age there was no chance of any physical labour jobs.

As I said, I did find a couple but with the general downsizing slowly continuing after a year or two there would be a layoff and I was the "new kid".

I admit I never did try a call centre. The reason is that my children would have to be in danger of starvation before I would ever become involved in telephone soliciting! I have always found getting such calls to be an obnoxious invasion of my privacy and I welcomed the "no call" list. I have a firm policy that I refuse to buy any product or service or make any donations to charity as a result of an unwanted telephone call. Frankly, I find the very concept to be unethical.

That's why I eventually gave up and built my own job! I am from the last generation of "techies" comfortable with vacuum tube electronics. I had built my first tube radio when I was about 11 years old and all through my career of selling modern parts to modern manufacturers my hobby was building ham radio equipment and repairing/building guitar amplifiers for myself and friends.

Guitarists have never embraced transistors and solid state amplifiers. The reason is that solid state is fine if you have already created your sound. There is very little distortion. However, modern guitar is SUPPOSED to be distorted! Transistors distort in a very unpleasant manner, like someone shredded your speaker. It's very difficult to sound like Pat Travers or Eddie Van Halen with a solid state amp.

So vacuum tubes still rule in that market! There's also a large group world wide of hifi audiophiles who also prefer vacuum tubes. There are nearly a BILLION dollars worth of vacuum tubes still made and sold every year world wide, just only those types used in audio circuits!

It's a great niche 'cuz schools haven't taught about vacuum tubes since 1962! Modern graduates are lucky to have been taught any audio stuff at all, what with the mainstream demand all in digital control and computer circuitry. So most towns have few if any good techs. I get much more than just local jobs. I get amplifiers shipped to me from as far away as Regina and the Maritimes.

I work from home, having expanded my hobby workshop. So my overhead is practically nothing. The market is very much based on "word of mouth" and personal reputation. So far that's worked well. My customers have been very good to me and I appreciate them.

A government type was pushing me to take on an assistant, to provide someone else with a job. Unfortunately, I really can't 'cuz I can't find anyone who knows anything already! I would have to slow down to half speed to teach and train him or her for at least a year or two before they would make me any money. At that point they could also strike out on their own and I would have bred my own competitor!

So I chug along on my own. The money isn't nearly what I was used to but it slowly keeps getting better and I do get a lot of free beer! Musicians can be a colourful and eclectic bunch. About half of them bring treats for my dog when they bring their equipment in to me!

I was fortunate that my background allowed me to do this. If I had worked at one of the local factories all my life it would have been another story. There are a LOT of unemployed steelworkers in this town and the competition for any job is pretty fierce! There are lots of makework programs so that they can extend their unemployment benefits but they are really just window dressing for the older worker. I know factory guys that are my age taking retraining to work with computers. Everyone involved knows the chances of them landing a job after the course is about zero but at least it means a few more months of EI. Retraining courses are just political theatre unless there is actually a demand for jobs in those fields! If the demand was truly there not just younger folks but older guys would have no trouble finding a job.

God bless rock and roll! It's been good to me!

Edited April 27, 2010 by Wild Bill

[wyly]

Did construction slow down during this recession ? It sure doesn't seem like it.

it did, I live in what was the hottest market in canada there were a lot people loking for work or just leaving...I'm sure I lost 150-200K in work, anyone who was in danger of losing a job or those had their wages frozen put their projects on hold...and then there were the calls from trades asking me for work, people I usually have to wait for to find the time for my projects...

I know people who have had trouble finding people to do renos

new home, commercial, industrial and renovation industries are very different, the majority of skilled trades prefer new residential, commercial and industrial to reno...I do reno's but before I went on my own the company I worked for reno work was the resort, it was avoided at all costs... even I walk away from reno's if the client is nutter, no sale is better than losing your shirt...

There seems to be a lot of money around, though. I wonder what they do ?

I suspect real estate is very good for small number and more when things are booming but any slowdown and they're gone...just my impression but I think there is a high turnover in real estate agents...

[Michael Hardner]

I admit I never did try a call centre. The reason is that my children would have to be in danger of starvation before I would ever become involved in telephone soliciting! I have always found getting such calls to be an obnoxious invasion of my privacy and I welcomed the "no call" list. I have a firm policy that I refuse to buy any product or service or make any donations to charity as a result of an unwanted telephone call. Frankly, I find the very concept to be unethical.

There are inbound centres too, that handle technical support and so on.

God bless rock and roll! It's been good to me!

Great story, thanks.

[Sir Bandelot]

God bless rock and roll! It's been good to me!

Good for you Wild Bill. I like your sig. I know exactly what it means, being a guitarist myself for over 30 years!

[Wild Bill]

Good for you Wild Bill. I like your sig. I know exactly what it means, being a guitarist myself for over 30 years!

Good stuff! If you ever need my services, I promise a 15% discount if you play me a Crowbar/Biscuit Boy tune!

[wyly]

There are inbound centres too, that handle technical support and so on.

tech support would be ok. phone soliciting is the equivalent of wal mart greeter I'm sure the pay is similar...

[Michael Hardner]

tech support would be ok. phone soliciting is the equivalent of wal mart greeter I'm sure the pay is similar...

The pay is low but you can't get fired.

[Pliny]

The top disciplinary problems according to public school teachers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e6UPS1vAcU

This little film clip doesn't take anything away from the fact that the concerns of teachers in 1940 are not the concerns of teachers today.

Nice little propaganda piece though. The State can help parents with their duties.

[Pliny]

what worthwhile work can a 16 year do?..nearly every job today requires training, those that don't are generally dead end jobs...I can't think of many skilled trade jobs that don't require post secondary training...and once kids quit school to work very few go back...

returning to school at 25-30 then working for a long time before returning for more retraining? how long is a long time? once someome is in their 50's they are more or less done, no one will hire a trainee in his/her 50's for any meaningful work, maybe they can be a greeter at walmart...

I know...let's just stream everybody through the same program from age 5 to 25.

Obviously, the people in your social circles thought the same way about their kids that you do. They are no jobs available that are worthwhile and the ones that are a 16 year old can't do. Did your parents think that? Your job was to study, right? You would be surprised what work a 16 year old can do. Right now they are mostly relegated to Macdonald's type jobs if they have any incentive to work at all. For most the entitlement of an allowance suffices.

[Pliny]

Ok, well I'm of the opinion that these incidents are overblown, and that it's difficult to compare social problems to a past era where problems were hidden from view.

While these problems may have been hidden from view they didn't seem to be on the minds of teachers. Somehow they had some control in the classroom.

It would be good to look at the statistics from then of teen pregnancies. I don't think it will be zero but there was not that much to hide. And it certainly didn't burden taxpayers or the State. It burdened families, and that in itself is a disincentive if there is any close relationship of the family at all.

Education might better be viewed as a lifelong obligation - something that we need to do periodically, when it's useful for us and when it's useful for society.

One path I could see people going in is working at 16, then returning to school at 25 or 30 and working for a long time, then returning for retraining. Education would need to give people life skills, as well as specific technical skills at every stage.

A definite option for some. I think most should set their own priorities and I think they will choose to do whatever they see as best for their future; that is,if their basic educational grounding encourages them to think at all.

In reality, certain avenues are blocked to today's youth. There are professional quotas to fill and that's it. And there are other blocks in the way of some that are not in the way of others such as affirmative action or minority quotas. Or gender quotas. We must go where someone else judges we should go.

[Pliny]

very few offer a viable future that will elevate them out of poverty...quitting school early is like a teenage girl getting pregnant and keeping the baby, their lives are basically screwed...few progress

meanwhile back in the real world few people are financially able to quit their job, support their familes/mortgage/debt for retraining and pay for further education...you make re-education seem so easy, it's anything but easy...

"done like dinner"...I recall a meeting televised years ago it was for fishery workers who lost their jobs because the government closed the fishery...one of the fishers who was in his mid 50's asked the government reps what he was to do at 55 for work..the official told him he was pretty much screwed, at his age to take job retraining was a waste of time, no one is going to hire a rookie pushing 60 with retirement only a few years away, they want young guys who are going to be around for awhile...

your ideas may sound good in theory but the reality is very different...

Your perspective is of the current society and how to be successful in the current society. Of course, you are ultimately right about the best policy to follow in order to succeed in the current structure. In other words, Do this now. Do this next. Do this now. Now you are supposed to do this and now that. Voila! success. I think Mr. Hardner is saying, and I concur, that this form of streaming and going through life as a cog in a machine is not very rewarding for many individuals and it may be the reason so many people just wind up doing their own thing anyway and doing themselves in in the process. If you want them to particpate in society you have to let them contribute to it not just inform them what their next step toward success is.

[Michael Hardner]

In reality, certain avenues are blocked to today's youth. There are professional quotas to fill and that's it. And there are other blocks in the way of some that are not in the way of others such as affirmative action or minority quotas. Or gender quotas. We must go where someone else judges we should go.

Professional quotas ? What are you talking about ? Do you think they disallow white men from becoming teachers, lawyers, doctors ? Not sure what you mean...

[Pliny]

I would agree with wyly, Michael. I'm 57 and my career was in distributing electronic parts.

Meanwhile, I sent out hundreds of resumes and knocked on all sorts of doors. Mind you, unemployment is always high in Hamilton, Ontario as the factories keep closing down and pulling out. I managed a few joe jobs but even then when layoffs came the last guy in was the first to be cut.

It's different if you are applying within your own field. Your age can be an asset as it is an indicator of experience. However, when your field is gone and you are trying for a position with something else as soon as they realize your age its over! There seems to be an attitude that they would rather have a younger worker to get more years out of him or her. I found this amusing, since history shows that after a few years that youngster would likely either be laid off or have moved on to a better job anyway!

Just how many of us older folks do you think call centres could hire, Michael? Besides, I thought all the call centre jobs were in India.

Well, you too would be correct under our current societal structure. The old and experienced should perhaps be the teachers.

But we have to look at more flexibility. The State tends to look at it's tax base and structure society according to it's greatest revenues. It must concern itself with aggregates and not individuals. Therefore options disappear and ideas develop along the lines you illustrate.

[Pliny]

God bless rock and roll! It's been good to me!

There you go! Just keep your options open for the next career, Wild Bill!

[Pliny]

Professional quotas ? What are you talking about ? Do you think they disallow white men from becoming teachers, lawyers, doctors ? Not sure what you mean...

By professional quotas I mean, there are only a certain number of doctors allowed per thousand people. They set the number of nurses at a certain level and know how many they think they will need down the road. It is mostly the Medical associations themselves that set these quotas and advise government of them.

[Michael Hardner]

By professional quotas I mean, there are only a certain number of doctors allowed per thousand people. They set the number of nurses at a certain level and know how many they think they will need down the road. It is mostly the Medical associations themselves that set these quotas and advise government of them.

And I don't know why that continues. They can create positions that pay well, and offload tasks from doctors onto those positions.

[Pliny]

And I don't know why that continues. They can create positions that pay well, and offload tasks from doctors onto those positions.

I agree.

It amounts to protection.

[bloodyminded]

They are social engineers so they naturally engineer society the way they think it should be engineered. They wouldn't like my input.

"Abstinence only" programs are social engineering.

[Wild Bill]

Professional quotas ? What are you talking about ? Do you think they disallow white men from becoming teachers, lawyers, doctors ? Not sure what you mean...

Michael, there ARE formidable other barriers! We live in the age of "accredited" education!

I've been watching this trend since the 70's, sometimes in frank amazement! Nowadays it would seem that you can't get a job as an "asswiper" unless you have completed at least a year or two of an accredited course! The converse is, if you haven't gotten such a certificate you can't possibly know how to wipe your own butt!

Some of the greatest journalists in history never took a formal course in journalism. Some of the greatest engineering breakthroughs came from people who were self-taught. Today, they would never be hired!

In my day (forgive me!) there wasn't nearly such an emphasis on formal learning. A true professional like a doctor, engineer or lawyer needed a degree to be hired but for most other jobs the question was simply if you appeared suitable at your interview. Usually the department head interviewed you himself, i.e. for a machinist's job the head of the machine shop would check you out on his machines and that, far more than your resume, would determine if you got the job.

One of the biggest cultural differences I note between today and my formative years is how no one seems to learn much of anything on their own. Hobbies have all but disappeared, compared to yesterday. When I was a young lad we tore apart old cars, radios or whatever and thought nothing of it. Variety stores had magazine racks with dozens of hobby magazines that would show you how to build your own oaken dining room set with only a jacknife and a rock for a hammer! There were issues galore on hotrodding your car's engine, from the ground up. I invite you to look for yourself at what magazines remain. You won't find anything to help you build your own speaker cabinets for your hifi. You'd be lucky to find a magazine of owner reviews to help you pick something store bought.

We used to have LOTS of guys into ham radio as a hobby. They self-taught themselves electronics and radio theory, just for the personal fun of it. When WWII broke out they immediately became an important resource for the country's military, which put them into the Signal Corp. Today, the hobby is slowly dying. There's only a pittance of hams left, with little new blood replacing the old guys who die off.

My wife works for the City Health Department. She once explained to me how whenever a new application like wordprocessing or whatever was loaded on the city's computers all the employees involved were expected to attend a course that could last for weeks if not months to learn how to use it. All on the City's dime, of course. I had to smile. I remember in the mid 80's when my company became computerized. All of us managers came in on a weekend and moved all the manual paperwork into one storage room, which we then LOCKED! We put a terminal on everyone's desk and when they showed up on Monday morning we told them all "We are now computerized! There is NO manual system left for you to do your job! You are going to HAVE to use the computer or you won't have a job!"

There were moans and shrieks of terror but by Friday NO ONE wanted to go back to the old ways! Everyone proved perfectly capable of learning on their own, with some coaching from computer guys and fellow employees.

I don't know how it is in your province but here in Ontario a farmer friend of mine runs a greenhouse operation. He regularly gets visited by various government types, for inspections and paperwork. One morning he was taking down an old dead tree in a field behind one of his greenhouses and a government type saw him and called him over. He was told that he could not cut down his own trees without a tree feller's certificate!

Now most farmers would have just nodded their heads and said "Yessuh, Mr. Gummamint Man! I dood that right away!" Then as soon as he was gone they would have gone back to work with their chain saw. However, my friend loves to check out government foolishness from time to time so he investigated and signed up for the course.

They took 6 weeks! This was a long time for such a simple task and he had a hard time staying awake but eventually they gave him his certificate.

What really threw him was when one of his instructors cautioned him as he handed him his certificate to not SELL any firewood he cut down! That would require another certificate and 6 week course!

My point is that there seems to be little if any self-education. Even the simplest things need a certificate to get a job.

Nowadays, a shop foreman rarely gets a chance to be involved in hiring interviews. "Human Resources" handles the whole thing. Some woman with an "Human Resources Degree" will check off a bingo card of boxes for what she notes on your resume and later from an interview. If you're lucky and get hired often that shop foreman is very frustrated and disappointed that you may not be very good at the actual WORK!

I actually once had a Sheridan College graduate working under me in a warehouse who couldn't put stock numbers on the shelf in alphanumeric order. He was a smart kid, he just had never learned the concept! Even then, it took me a week of MY time to teach him!

So accreditation has often become a barrier rather than a goal post to getting the best applicant for a job. Many degrees require years rather than just weeks for a certificate. It makes it all the more important for someone to focus and achieve goals when they are young.

It's as if the academics have set up a guild system that provides more jobs for teachers but at the expense of self-initiative.

I remember watching a couple of young lads from Mohawk College at the electronics counter where I once worked. One lad was looking at a soldering iron. From what I overhead they were both taking an electronics techician program. One lad said to the other "Why are you looking at that for?"

"I'm in electronics! I'm going to have to learn how to solder!" was the reply.

"Forget it!" his friend said. "They have them at school and they'll have them wherever you find a job. Why should you spend your money?"

I was floored! One of the best gifts my dad ever bought me was my own soldering iron when I was 10 years old! I couldn't conceive of anyone not getting hooked on electronics on his own and then choosing to take formal education, just as I couldn't conceive of some lad ever becoming a good auto mechanic while never having looked under the hood of a car before he went to a community college!

For those types of skills, if you have no passion of your own then all a school can do is make you into some kind of robotic assembly line worker. I don't see how you could ever be a GOOD technician or mechanic!

Please understand Michael, I'm not disparaging higher education. I'm just adding some perspective. Learning is NOT an assembly line process. Simply achieving a certificate is not the same as having a talent or a real understanding of an area. In the "old days" the most talented tended to rise to the top. Today it seems it's those who accumulate the most certificates.

No wonder countries like China are outpacing us!

Edited April 28, 2010 by Wild Bill

[Pliny]

"Abstinence only" programs are social engineering.

Right.

Only think for yourself isn't social engineering. As scary as that may sound.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Pliny

[Michael Hardner]

...

Please understand Michael, I'm not disparaging higher education. I'm just adding some perspective. Learning is NOT an assembly line process. Simply achieving a certificate is not the same as having a talent or a real understanding of an area. In the "old days" the most talented tended to rise to the top. Today it seems it's those who accumulate the most certificates.

No wonder countries like China are outpacing us!

Very interesting. Sure, it sounds right. Oddly, the field of software is still largely unregulated, uncertified, and the highest field for growth potential.

[Wild Bill]

Very interesting. Sure, it sounds right. Oddly, the field of software is still largely unregulated, uncertified, and the highest field for growth potential.

Of course! By its very nature, software is a creative process. Very little book learning is involved in grasping the basic concepts of a computer language. After that its all in how well you think!

Boolean Algebra and calculus can help immensely. Of course, we've dropped calculus from our high schools here in Ontario. Hard maths and sciences have been de-emphasized for years now. Yet these are things that train students in problem solving. Other subjects tend more to be simple memorization and regurgitation. It's getting harder and harder to get capable teachers for problem solving disciplines. Meanwhile, English, French, Arts and phys-ed teachers are a dime a dozen.

Also, with software you can't try to dress up poor results with psychobabble, like if someone questions the declining literacy of today's students. You have an immediate need for a program to do a specific task that can be supplied to the market or a specific customer. It either works or it doesn't. It is supplied on time or it's late. Period and end of story.

This means that software companies are painfully aware of the need to have competent people who understand software themselves be deeply involved in the hiring process. Human Resources is confined to its traditional role of "Personnel", where it simply filed and kept track of the paperwork.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Wild Bill