Keepitsimple Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 (edited) So two posters now (Argus and M. Dancer) are performing the art of special pleading...that our military, and by extension our government, should be more secretive and less accountable. While I applaud this faux-patriotic sense of deeply ingrained servility, I must say I'm less than convinced that the opposition parties are loyal to the Taliban. But whatever insane conspiracy theory floats your flimsy little boat.... Count me right alongside Argus and Dancer. There's no conspiracy theory at work here - just the workings of a "progressive" opposition trying to throw as much mud as possible at the government - and if the military gets bruised and bloody, so be it. Most Canadians aren't stupid....they know Afghanistan has been an endless horror for hundreds of years - they know it's a dirty "war" and they know that Canada and our Military have made every reasonable effort to avoid the abuse that goes on in prisons all across Afghanistan. The detainee issue has just about run its course with the public.....Someone pointed out what Chretien once said: When you throw mud, you lose ground.....and the ground is shifting - it's gone on too long. As an aside, Reader's Digest current issue gave a list of Canada's most trustworthy personalities. I think you'll be able to draw a few general conclusions about what everyday Canadians might think about the "Detainee" issue. Among the notables: 1. David Suzuki 4. The Queen 5. Lloyd Robertson 6. Sheila Fraser 8. Stephen Harper 9. Peter Mansbridge 10. Rick Hillier 13. Michaelle Jean 29. Jack Layton 42. Michael Ignatieff Professions that were trusted the most: 1. Firefighters 7. Teachers 8. Police 11. Armed Forces 29. Lawyers 31. Taxi Drivers 39. Politicians Edited April 21, 2010 by Keepitsimple Quote Back to Basics
bloodyminded Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 You were obviously never a soldier! The last guys who want war are soldiers.But when guys without uniforms are trying to kill you ,you want to make sure they die and not you and your mates. Your country sends you out to do a job,in this case it started with the UN ,asking us through NATO to take on this task. I do not condone cold blooded murder. Not for one minute but those Lads are facing an unconventional enemy and they sometimes have to make split second decisions or they end up dead or worse they contribute to the death or maiming of their mates. War is messy. It`s a horrible last resort. It is failure. But if your going to take part you better go with the attitude you want to win. I would prefer Gen. MacKenzie to lead and not that lawyer who thinks second hand testimony should be gospel. Fine, but what has all this to do with the topic? There are people here praising secrecy, denouncing accountability (Such hatred of democracy is not terribly uncommon, unfortunately)...and dressing it all up with uninsightful and totally-agreed-upon remarks about how bad the Taliban is. And yet no one here is saying that the Taliban aren't bad, so plainly this is meant as a distrtaction. In fact, it's a form of political correctness, this conflating critics with the enemy. PC all the way. Like I said, I'm far more concerned about what Canadians are doing wrong. And I'm talking the leadership, not the soldiers in the field, whom I believe should be allowed a relative amount of leeway, when it comes to potential criminal matters on the battlefield. I would certainly be more forgiving of them than is the military itself in many cases. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
wyly Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 You were obviously never a soldier! The last guys who want war are soldiers.But when guys without uniforms are trying to kill you ,you want to make sure they die and not you and your mates. Your country sends you out to do a job,in this case it started with the UN ,asking us through NATO to take on this task. I do not condone cold blooded murder. Not for one minute but those Lads are facing an unconventional enemy and they sometimes have to make split second decisions or they end up dead or worse they contribute to the death or maiming of their mates. War is messy. It`s a horrible last resort. It is failure. But if your going to take part you better go with the attitude you want to win. I would prefer Gen. MacKenzie to lead and not that lawyer who thinks second hand testimony should be gospel. second hand testimony? the military's testimony is 3rd hand they got it from the translator(2nd hand), so how do you figure their info becomes more credible than the translator they got it from, who according to you is now unreliable?... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
bloodyminded Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 (edited) Count me right alongside Argus and Dancer. You want more secrecy and less accountability? There's no conspiracy theory at work here - just the workings of a "progressive" opposition trying to throw as much mud as possible at the government - and if the military gets bruised and bloody, so be it. But that's one charge, and not the charge I mentioned. I'm talking about the lunatic little pantywaists who claim that critics of the government's secrecy, and critics of possible culpability in torture, are being cited here (openly, explicitly cited) as admiring the Taliban and so forth. But come to think of it, it isn't really a conspiracy theory, because those who say it don't believe it; they're just snivelling little cowards who fear they are losing important debates on such matters. That's why they're throwing mud about "siding with the enemy" and so forth. So I guess you don't agree with the Chretien quote you offer. Most Canadians [...] know that Canada and our Military have made every reasonable effort to avoid the abuse that goes on in prisons all across Afghanistan. No, they don't "know" any such thing. Nor do I; neither do you. They might believe it, but that's a totally different matter. As an aside, Reader's Digest current issue gave a list of Canada's most trustworthy personalities. I think you'll be able to draw a few general conclusions about what everyday Canadians might think about the "Detainee" issue. Among the notables: 1. David Suzuki 4. The Queen 5. Lloyd Robertson 6. Sheila Fraser 8. Stephen Harper 9. Peter Mansbridge 10. Rick Hillier 13. Michaelle Jean 29. Jack Layton 42. Michael Ignatieff Professions that were trusted the most: 1. Firefighters 7. Teachers 8. Police 11. Armed Forces 29. Lawyers 31. Taxi Drivers 39. Politicians You're certainly right that this is an aside; I can't imagine what it has to do with anything. Edited April 21, 2010 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
bloodyminded Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 second hand testimony? the military's testimony is 3rd hand they got it from the translator(2nd hand), so how do you figure their info becomes more credible than the translator they got it from, who according to you is now unreliable?... Nationalism and partisanship have magical qualities, unintelligible to us mere mortals. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Mr.Canada Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 (edited) More hearsay evidence without solid proof. When will the socialists learn that this isn't the Soviet Union or China? In Canada we don't prosecute without evidence. So no execution by firing squad like the did in the USSR and they still do today in China. This is just tactics used by the socialists to deflect attention from the fact that they have no platform or policy to speak of. They have no plan to help Canadians in any sustainable way. Silly socialists. Maybe they'll be celebrating Hitler's birthday as many socialists are anti Semites as well. Edited April 21, 2010 by Mr.Canada Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
M.Dancer Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 second hand testimony? the military's testimony is 3rd hand they got it from the translator(2nd hand), so how do you figure their info becomes more credible than the translator they got it from, who according to you is now unreliable?... Are you suggesting that the first time they learned a soldier had shot someone on the back of the head was from the translator? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
bloodyminded Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 More hearsay evidence without solid proof. When will the socialists learn that this isn't the Soviet Union or China? In Canada we don't prosecute without evidence. People are calling for the evidence, not for prosecutions without evidence. You support that no one's allowed to see the evidence. And then you cry, "Ok, socialists [sic], where's the evidence?" Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Born Free Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 Are you suggesting that the first time they learned a soldier had shot someone on the back of the head was from the translator? We'll probably never know given that the military is more interested in covering it all up. We do know that the military has done this before...ie covering up a crime and murdering a prisoner. Quote
M.Dancer Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 We'll probably never know given that the military is more interested in covering it all up. So the report filed after the raid...makes suggestions of a cover up seem, what? Stupid? Ignorant? Yes it does.... Blah blah blah blah..... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Argus Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 (edited) .Some of us forget. In this case, it's thanks to a kind of military fetishism. Some of us wait to hear evidence before accepting there might be serious wrongdoing. Some of us are filled with such contempt for the military, and are so frantically eager to find dirt to smear on them and the tories that they'll accept without question any allegation the Taliban makes. Edited April 21, 2010 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 Fine, but what has all this to do with the topic? There are people here praising secrecy, denouncing accountability . I haven't seen any such people. What I've seen are the grown-ups trying to esplain to the slivating children that they can't have every candy that catches their eye, that there could be consequences to just throwing the doors of the candy shop wide and letting children snatch anything off the shelf they want without adult supervision. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 Nationalism and partisanship have magical qualities, unintelligible to us mere mortals. And stupidity knows no bounds when it comes to ideologues in the orgasmic throes of self-righteosness. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Born Free Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 I haven't seen any such people. Yer one of them... Quote
Argus Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 People are calling for the evidence, not for prosecutions without evidence. Such a fevered imagination. Prosecutions yet! LOL No, people (like you) are screaming, "WE NEED A ROYAL COMMISION, OR MAYBE TWO, OR MAYBE TEN TO INVESTIGATE!" And people like me are saying "but there's no actual evidence of any wrongdoing". And people like you are screaming. "GIVE US ALL THE REPORTS FROM AFGHANISTAN, EVERY ONE OF THEM ON EVERY SUBJECT AND WE'LL FIND SOME EVIDENCE OF SOMETHING... SOMEHOW!!!" And people like me are smirking and shaking our heads. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Born Free Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 And stupidity knows no bounds when it comes to ideologues in the orgasmic throes of self-righteosness. Do you smoke after your orgasms? Quote
bloodyminded Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 Some of us wait to hear evidence before acceptance wrongdoing. Some of us waiting for this evidence. Others, including a few here, are openly wishing for more secrecy and lack of accountability. Which of course is inimical to any claims about waiting to hear evidence. Some of us are filled with such contempt for the military, and are so frantically eager to find dirt to smear on them and the tories that they'll accept without question any allegation the Taliban makes. I don't accept any allegation the Taliban makes. But I am fascinated by your implied conflation here of the Tories and the military; as well as of the politicized military PR sectors and the troops in the field. As for "contempt for the military"...well, let's just say that this bile is spouted by two types of people: 1. Those who really believe this, and so are unintelligent knuckledraggers; 2. Those who don't believe it, but make use of this sort of political correctness because they're frightened of an honest debate. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Argus Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 Yer one of them... Just kee braying. I'll just keep smirking. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 I don't accept any allegation the Taliban makes. Really? Well, the sum total of all "evidence" so far, if you can call it evidence, are statements made by the Taliban. So what else you got that justifies all the fuss? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Born Free Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 So the report filed after the raid...makes suggestions of a cover up seem, what? Stupid? Ignorant? Yes it does.... Time will tell. Time will tell. As I have stated, the military guys at the top have been shown to have hidden stuff before...they are quite capable of doing it again. Quote
bloodyminded Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 Such a fevered imagination. Prosecutions yet! LOL I was responding directly to someone who made this claim--it wasn't my invention. It was one of your fellow commissars, actually. And people like me are smirking and shaking our heads. People like you do nothing else, whenever someone has the affrontery to disagree with your sanctimonious servility-to-Power. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Born Free Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 Really? Well, the sum total of all "evidence" so far, if you can call it evidence, are statements made by the Taliban. So what else you got that justifies all the fuss? Yer just like Morris. You argue about stuff no matter how wrong you are. Quote
Argus Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 second hand testimony? the military's testimony is 3rd hand they got it from the translator(2nd hand), so how do you figure their info becomes more credible than the translator they got it from, who according to you is now unreliable?... Wow. Why do I even bother? The first hand testimony comes from thsoe who were there - all the soldiers involved and all their official reports, statements and testimony. The second hand testimony comes from some ex-translator prompted by an anti-government lawyer who has made baseless allegations in the past about Afghanistan, who says he heard it from some Taliban. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Keepitsimple Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 You're certainly right that this is an aside; I can't imagine what it has to do with anything. Because it backs up the fact that Canadians trust the Armed Forces much more than they trust politicians......and Michael Ignatieff, leader of the Liberal mudslingers, is by far the least trusted leader. As I said, Canadians aren't stupid - most know political opportunism when they see it. The game has gone on far too long..... As an aside, Reader's Digest current issue gave a list of Canada's most trustworthy personalities. I think you'll be able to draw a few general conclusions about what everyday Canadians might think about the "Detainee" issue. Among the notables:1. David Suzuki 4. The Queen 5. Lloyd Robertson 6. Sheila Fraser 8. Stephen Harper 9. Peter Mansbridge 10. Rick Hillier 13. Michaelle Jean 29. Jack Layton 42. Michael Ignatieff Professions that were trusted the most: 1. Firefighters 7. Teachers 8. Police 11. Armed Forces 29. Lawyers 31. Taxi Drivers 39. Politicians Quote Back to Basics
Born Free Posted April 21, 2010 Report Posted April 21, 2010 Because it backs up the fact that Canadians trust the Armed Forces much more than they trust politicians......and Michael Ignatieff, leader of the Liberal mudslingers, is by far the least trusted leader. As I said, Canadians aren't stupid - most know political opportunism when they see it. The game has gone on far too long..... That kinda stuff has a similar sounding ring to it during the era when General Boyle was doctoring documents.... Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.