Conservatives

[idealisttotheend]

I think the carriers would be very useful to peacekeeping/peacemaking missions. What would Delaire have done with helicopter support in Rwanda? Plus, we did eventually want to send more troops but didn't have the strategic lift to get them there and the Americans wouldn't lend us theirs. What happened in Rwanda in 93-94 is the same thing that happened in Germany in 1939-1945 and to argue otherwise is racist. Therefore we had a duty to do more to stop it and more military resources would have helped.

If the carriers are built in Canada I think that it would be worth it, (or if we could get a great deal on a couple of used ones).

Still though, a dollar in aid is probably ten times as useful as a dollar in military spending.

[Argus]

Let me get this straight: Harper wants to buy at least two hybrid aircraft carriers?

How much are these tinker toys supposed to cost and, more importantly, what in dog's name do we need 'em for?

Not aircraft carriers, helicopter carriers. I think he is thinking something along the lines of the US Marine Corps transports which carry troops, equipment, supplies, and helicopters to ferry them ashore and support them Of course, US Marine helicopters are usually armed. Ours aren't.

How much they would cost depends on whether we build them here or buy them off someone else. Considering the frigates cost us a billion each I'd guess the helicopter carriers would be at least twice that if built here. You could do it for a whole helluva lot less, though, if you either bought one abroad, or rigged up an existing fast freighter, preferably one of the smaller ro-ro car carrier things with some landing pads and crew quarters.

They would certainly be useful in shipping equipment abroad. Whether the helicopters would be useful would depend on where you had to get to. Obviously they'd be uselessin Afghanistan, unless the helicopters were merely being transported there.

[Stoker]

Let me get this straight: Harper wants to buy at least two hybrid aircraft carriers?

How much are these tinker toys supposed to cost and, more importantly, what in dog's name do we need 'em for?

To your first question, yes.

As for cost, it would be hard to guess-ta-mate, since the full details haven't been released, but from what was said about them, I say they sound quite alot like the new Spanish LHD (Landing Helicopter Dock) :

LHD

Which if this is the case, IZAR quoted them at about 400 million Euro or about 700 million CDN each. When people say Aircraft Carrier, the automatic reaction is the big multi billion dollar, nuclear powered CVNs, which are not in the Tories plans.

As for the need, as was said, it would allow Canadian's to be "self-sufficient" in low threat enviroments (Peacekeeping) and to contribute to a coalition in a high intensity enviroment (all out war).

Added to, the norm for these type of ships, is that they have a large hospital onboard, which could be used for (when not repairing baby killers ) helping in a disaster, at home or aboard.

[Stoker]

Not aircraft carriers, helicopter carriers. I think he is thinking something along the lines of the US Marine Corps transports which carry troops, equipment, supplies, and helicopters to ferry them ashore and support them Of course, US Marine helicopters are usually armed. Ours aren't.

I doubt it will be anything like those that are used by the USMC, not at 3-4 Billion per

How much they would cost depends on whether we build them here or buy them off someone else. Considering the frigates cost us a billion each I'd guess the helicopter carriers would be at least twice that if built here. You could do it for a whole helluva lot less, though, if you either bought one abroad, or rigged up an existing fast freighter, preferably one of the smaller ro-ro car carrier things with some landing pads and crew quarters.

HMS Ocean cost about the same as a RN type 23 frigate, steels cheap and air is free

The Freighter is a no go, since I'm sure they want these ships to have a dock.......it's worth spending the extra couple of hundred million dollars.

They would certainly be useful in shipping equipment abroad. Whether the helicopters would be useful would depend on where you had to get to. Obviously they'd be uselessin Afghanistan, unless the helicopters were merely being transported there.

American and British Helicopters operated from LHDs and Carriers in the Indian Ocean during the opening stages of the war in Afghanistan.

[takeanumber]

Harper has no intention in buying any of that equipment.

If he did, it would have been all costed out, and guess what, it's not costed out.

Which means that it's not a priority.

Which means that it won't happen.

Which means it's just a promise to appeal to a specific demographic.

Which means it's more of the same rot, same crap, same load of total BS spewing out of his mouth just like every other politician.

[Stoker]

Harper has no intention in buying any of that equipment.

Says who? You?

If he did, it would have been all costed out, and guess what, it's not costed out.

Says who? You? I thought their entire platform hasn't been released yet

Give me a break, the Tories plan to increase defence spending by 100%, but reguardles, we should be able to afford a large precentage of the equipment on the Cons "wishlist" with our current budget.......if the Dutch, Australians and Spanish can with about the same size of budget, there is no way in hell that we can't.

Maybe you should go have a read of their defence plan before "spewing" your BS. Tis good for the goose is good for the gander........

[takeanumber]

It's not costed, Stoker.

And if it's not costed, Harper won't buy it.

Selective memory or what?

[Stoker]

It's not costed, Stoker.

And if it's not costed, Harper won't buy it.

Selective memory or what?

Who said it's not costed?

[idealisttotheend]

Where is it costed then???

[Stoker]

In their defence proposal, you know where they say they will increase defence spending by 1.2 billion for their first three years, then 1.6 in their fourth year, with plans to have the defence budget increased by ten billion by the end of their second term........

Reguardless, I'd like to hear were takeanumber got his info that Harper won't carry on with his defence plan?

[takeanumber]

The equipment is NOT costed.

He said as much when pressed last week.

To buy the things he wants to buy, 1.6 Bill isn't going to do it.

He said 1.6 Bill wasn't enough to do it.

Therefore, the equipment is NOT costed.

[Stoker]

How would he price out the exact cost of each piece of equipment to a "T" when he has yet to take the government

Same deal with Healthcare today......how is he going to put an exact number on something until he knows what it will cost? I've never heard Harper claiming to be clairvoyant

I'd still like you to explain how you know he has "no intention in buying any of that equipment"?

[takeanumber]

The new helicopters alone will cost in excess of 5 billion dollars.

The money he promised was for increasing the size of the armed forces.

It doesn't take much intellect to know that if somebody tells you that they're going to do something, but doesn't actually cost it out, that it isn't going to get done.

See: Mulroney, 1988.

See: Chretien, Most of the RedBook, 1993.

See: Any Alberta election since 1993.

See: Ontario Election, 2003.

See: Any Nova Scotian election since 1985.

See: Any McKena election.

If they say that they have a 'commitment', or a 'promise' or an 'intent', it doesn't amount to anything, and they know it, because they never actually costed it out, and thus, they're free to set new priorities in lieu of the election priorities two budget down the road.

You can say, "But Harper is different", but I've come to ignore the hype comming out of that corner. That's what they said about Day.

[Stoker]

The new helicopters alone will cost in excess of 5 billion dollars.

Again you still pull numbers out of your arse

Five Billion?

So you figure that the Sea King Replacement will cost close to 200 million per copy........gimme a break, at most, the Sea King replacement project will cost just over 3 billion, most likely under that number, which will translate into about 100 million per copy for twenty eight airframes......

So judging by your ignorant facts and your unproven assertions, I really wonder why you contiune to embarrass yourself....

Now if you are privy to some sort of inside info pertaining to a potential Harper government and it's plans for DND, by all means speak up, but be prepaired to provide some sort of proof.........if not, I'd suggest that you look into getting your money back on your education, you may have learned a few names and dates, but by reading your posts, you sure haven't developed maturity.

Now there's a big boy......run along

[takeanumber]

Once again, what is it with you and attacking people instead of the arguement?

I thought you were doing quite well there until you messed it up with a snide personal attack.

For shame.

Where did I get the 5 billion number? I got it from Herb Gray's attempts to close the deal with Eurocopter prior to his uncermonious sacking at the hands of Chretien when he shuffled him out in favour of John Manley.

The number was NOT pulled out of my ass.

Why is the number so high?

Because these were to be multiple use vehicles, capable of the heavy lifting required for field ops, and to complement coast guard support. (Debates, Issue 54). The Alliance countered that the proposal from Eurocopter was woefully inadequate, because the proposed replacements did not have the range needed.

You have to remember, they're replacing the Atlantic coast guard fleet, and the Pacific coast guard fleet, AND, the artic support copters. (Not to mention the Anti-Submarine role of the Sea King that needs to be replaced, which is one of Canada's principle duties when it gets intergrated with the US navy. (Current contribution to the war on terror in the Persian Gulf and Arabian Sea.

Plus Harper has to buy more copters to put on those modified frigrates.

I know the standard response to facts is another personal insult, so bring it on.

Regards,

Takeanumber.

[Stoker]

Where did I get the 5 billion number? I got it from Herb Gray's attempts to close the deal with Eurocopter prior to his uncermonious sacking at the hands of Chretien when he shuffled him out in favour of John Manley.

Eurocopter is no longer in the running........

You have to remember, they're replacing the Atlantic coast guard fleet, and the Pacific coast guard fleet, AND, the artic support copters. (Not to mention the Anti-Submarine role of the Sea King that needs to be replaced, which is one of Canada's principle duties when it gets intergrated with the US navy. (Current contribution to the war on terror in the Persian Gulf and Arabian Sea.

The past government already bought replacements for the Labs.....

The only place that I could think were you got a number like 5 Billion was the orgianal order placed under the Tories in the 80s, and that order was for fifty aircraft, to replace both the Labs and the Sea Kings.

The Labs have since been replaced, and the Sea King replacement cut down from 35-36 aircraft to 28, hence 2.8-3 billion dollar ballpark price tag for the Sea King replacement.

Plus Harper has to buy more copters to put on those modified frigrates.

What "modified frigrates"? The LHDs maybe? If the Tories get in and then build the LHDs, do you really think that they would purchase a 100 million helicopter (like the Sea thing replacement) to support the army?

[idealisttotheend]

Wow.

Those are some mighty fine facts if you ask me, I thought the $5 billion came our of the air too but I guess not. Takeanumber has got my vote on this one.

And can we please not get back into ad hominen attacks, I know I'm not the moderator or anything but it's really much nicer when everyone just sticks to the facts and argument. If you want to see a site with personal attacks look up Michael Hardiner and click on his WWW address. That forum is not pretty and no one posts there. Again, don't mean to be arrogant or anything, that's just my opinion.

Thanks.

[takeanumber]

Eurocopter is no longer in the running........

Herb Gray = 2001.

Eurocopter Consortium.

If they're out of business now, they're out of business.

But I remember the debate distinctly. Herb Gray was about to open up the tenders to Eurocopter again after they had previously cancelled the last time.

If I've misread, I've misread.

The Labs need to be retrofitted with up to date technology is what I read. The Alliance defense critic (Rob Anders) insisted.

Plus they're saying that need more.

The modified frigates? Harper said he wanted two more. Those cost money.

I'm not so sure if they'll be made out of Quebec or Saint John. He might go lowest bidder and get Korea to build them.

[Stoker]

Those are some mighty fine facts if you ask me, I thought the $5 billion came our of the air too but I guess not. Takeanumber has got my vote on this one.

Takeanumber did pull the numbers out of the air and/or is out of his depth.

But I agree, I'll lay off the "attacks", even though it's hard when the other person debating refrains from using fact based info.

[Stoker]

But I remember the debate distinctly. Herb Gray was about to open up the tenders to Eurocopter again after they had previously cancelled the last time.

If Eurocopter was trying to sell 28 helicopters to DND, when AugstaWestland and and Sikorsky are offering the same number for just over half the price, I think you can see why they are out of the loop.......not to mention their contender the NH-90 was not up to spec.

The Labs need to be retrofitted with up to date technology is what I read. The Alliance defense critic (Rob Anders) insisted.

Plus they're saying that need more.

The Labs are not being retrofited, they are being retired, now that the Cormarent is in service.

As for needing more, never heard that, but the price tag og the Ch-149 is peanuts.

The modified frigates? Harper said he wanted two more. Those cost money.

I doubt that very highly........the Navy is has the ongoing CADRE program that the Libs might cut, reguardless the new Destroyers were counted into the purchase of the Sea King replacements since they won't be an addition to the fleet but a replacement for the 280s.

[takeanumber]

Takeanumber did pull the numbers out of the air and/or is out of his depth.

I recall the number distinctly from the 2001 debate because Rob Anders was yapping and Herb was replying.

I remember a 500 million dollar cancellation fee, from the original Eurocopter contract.

I remember distinctly that the investigation into the Mulroney dealings were well over.

And I recall the total price tag of 5 billion was being bandied about, by the Alliance as being 'too high', and by Gray as being a great deal for Canadians. The line was, "Mr. Speaker, we want to get the best helicopters, with the best equipment, for the best possible value for Canadians, and that's exactly what we're going to do Mr. Speaker."

And like Herb Gray, this gets repeated, over and over again, with those little remarks at the end, you know with that evil little finger pointed out towards the opposition.

So yeh, I remember the 5 Billion dollar price tag.

It fell through though, because he got the sack.

I think they wanted more than just 22 Sea Kings though, because of their expanded role with the whole integration with the US army that was going on.

I can't remember for the life of me who was the other bidder though...because there were accusations that Herb was chuggling the contract against so-and-so in favour of so-and-so.

[idealisttotheend]

AH, they were not mighty fine facts after all.

This archived CBC story puts Eurocopter's bid at $2.5 billion for 28 and it is the lowest so $3 B would be closer than $5 B

DND news release says 2.9 billion

[idealisttotheend]

But the Tories were going to pay $5 billion for 50

But then the other ones are $5 billion and that's how much Mulroney was going to pay as early as '91

My oh my. I give up, we can only hope someone in DND knows how much the damn things cost.

[takeanumber]

Alright idealist.

I'll concede the 3 billion, and that I got confused between the original 5 and the new 3. The original 5 was being screamed a lot.

Anyway.

Take 3 billion, add 5 years (2006 minimum), I think it'll end up being 5 billion in the end, maybe? Demand for gear is up. who knows. I said it was 5 back then, but I said it would cost 5 now, so whatever. I'm wrong.

But I didn't just pull the number out of the air.

So, it's not costed.

The new boats. Not costed.

Heavy lifters. Not costed.

New tanks. Not costed.

From here on out I'd have to pull numbers out of the air.

Heavy lift aircraft....how many? They're expensive.

New tanks. Relatively cheap for the chassey. The gear inside is expensive.

The Boats, as I mentioned, if we go Korean, their shipbuilding industry is really subsidzed, so we could get a good deal. Beats me.

It's not costed.

And there are always going to be bigger priorities for a Harper government.

Neverending farming bailouts, which will much fatter under Harper, for instance. Votes or airplanes? I think Harper would pick votes.

[August1991]

My oh my. I give up, we can only hope someone in DND knows how much the damn things cost.

I do it this way. $5 billion for helicopters. Five billion is a completely meaningless number. A car salesman once explained to me that $30,000 is a meaningless number to people. But monthly payments of $300 is comprehensible.

So, $5 billion for helicopters means about $200 from me for the damn things. Or, $160 if we use the other price tag. Whatever. I'd say OK and sign off - those old helicopters don't even fly anymore.