PM Harper: Friend and protector of the Jews!

[CANADIEN]

Calling for the destruction of Israel is anti Semitism and shouldn't be tolerated but it is for some reason.

Equating Israel to aparthied South Africa is anti Semitism.

Equating Israel to Nazi Germany is anti Semitism.

Muslims don't believe the real Holocaust took place on one hand then claim they are victims of a fake one is antiSemitism.

So anyone who calls Israel an apartheid state is an anti-Semite, wouldn't you agree?

agreeing with false numbers on the extent of the Holocaust that are put forward by deniers is anti-Semitic, wouldn't you agree?

Stating that Jews and arabs killing each other would be good is anti-Semitic, wouldn't you agree?

[Mr.Canada]

So anyone who calls Israel an apartheid state is an anti-Semite, wouldn't you agree?

agreeing with false numbers on the extent of the Holocaust that are put forward by deniers is anti-Semitic, wouldn't you agree?

Stating that Jews and arabs killing each other would be good is anti-Semitic, wouldn't you agree?

I obviously agree, yes. Look, guys I said those things over a year ago and I was suspended 3 weeks for them as I was trolling. Can we move on now?

[ToadBrother]

Listen I am half Jewish so what am I self hating?

And here we're introduced to another style of retort by Mr. Canada. If he's insulting poor people suddenly he was a street kid in Toronto. If he's making grand pronouncements on crime, then suddenly he's an ex-con too! Now, suddenly, he's half-Jewish!

I'm sorry, Mr. C, I'm calling bullsh*t on this. But even if it were true, it would not make you one less bit an anti-Semite.

Plus I posted that over a year ago and I was posting silly things to provoke people and I was suspended three weeks for it. I do not do that anymore.

That may be true, or it may not be. Considering some other odd things you've said, I'm not willing to buy it at face value. At any rate, you have to live with the things you say. Apologizing and repudiating previous troubling anti-Jewish statements would probably be a start. As well, declaring yourself the big friend of the Jews is very much the wrong tact. Believe me, I'm not singling you out. If Lictor came back here and suddenly declared he loved colored people and said "All those things I wrote were a joke", I'd be no more inclined to simply give him the benefit of the doubt than you.

Now no more ad hominem and try to fight my argument above.

WE've already established that these are not ad hominem comments. This is a thread about Jews started by a guy who has said anti-Semitic things. Your views past and present on Jews are very much pertinent to the conversation.

[CANADIEN]

That was over a year ago, I posted as devils advocate (...)

Saying that Jews and Muslims killing each other would mean more Christians is not playing devil's advocate.

[Mr.Canada]

Toad Brother, I lived on the street for a long time, I am half Jewish, My family is froma small town in the Ukraine just south of Kiev came to Canada in 1925 to escape the growing hatred of Jews at the time. Most of them came here but found Toronto to be as bad as Europe so many moveda gain to NY then finally to California. Some stayed here.

I've been to prison several times for assault and assault with a weapon every time. Once the weapon was knife, another a gun and the last one I snapped a mop handle in a bar and stabbed someone with it. I used to drink a lot and pick fights in bars.

I was in the west for several months each time waiting for trial. Unit 2C left for the most part each time. I was in the old MapleHurst as well a couple times before they renovated it. Back then you had your own cell CC side which came with a box attached to your bed that you locked with a combo lock. Many people would use this as a weapon called a lock in a sock. There were two sides. They would call one side Jamaica where the blacks would go for the most part and Texas where the whites would go, Divided by the guards as there was race riot there in the early 80's.

I cleaned myself up, quit boozing, started staying in shelters. Finished high school then on to college, met my wife there got married, kids house in the far suburbs and the rest is history.

I have one hell of an over active imagination if I'm making all that up.

Saying that Jews and Muslims killing each other would mean more Christians is not playing devil's advocate.

Whatever, I was suspended for three weeks for it. I was trolling and I got caught and paid for it. Move along.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[Mr.Canada]

So now lets go back the first post and try to stay on topic. I am looking for some reasonable discussion. Here.

[ToadBrother]

So now lets go back the first post and try to stay on topic. I am looking for some reasonable discussion. Here.

Which is what? That you seem to insinuate the Left is anti-Semitic? As I explained elsewhere, there is an element of the NDP which is pretty close to Marxist-Leninist and has a soft spot for revolutionaries and freedom fighters. I don't think there are many on the Left in this country who hate Jews any more than there are a lot on the Right. I certainly don't agree with painting Israel as some sort of evil Darth Vader power, but nor am I interested in swinging the most serious accusations against groups who really are, more than anything else, far too naive.

[bloodyminded]

And here we're introduced to another style of retort by Mr. Canada. If he's insulting poor people suddenly he was a street kid in Toronto. If he's making grand pronouncements on crime, then suddenly he's an ex-con too! Now, suddenly, he's half-Jewish!

Sigh.

It's rare, truly rare, that I have debated someone who gets delirious over the "moral rich" and witheringly scornful over "the poor"...who doesn't at some point claim to have been poor himself.

Now, no doubt, it is actually true...maybe 1 percent of the time.

[bloodyminded]

Which is what? That you seem to insinuate the Left is anti-Semitic? As I explained elsewhere, there is an element of the NDP which is pretty close to Marxist-Leninist and has a soft spot for revolutionaries and freedom fighters. I don't think there are many on the Left in this country who hate Jews any more than there are a lot on the Right. I certainly don't agree with painting Israel as some sort of evil Darth Vader power, but nor am I interested in swinging the most serious accusations against groups who really are, more than anything else, far too naive.

Good man. I myself have been extremely critical of Israel (the "right to exist" theme shouldn't even be under discussion, however...unless we apply it to, well, the majority of countries. Then it would be, at least, fair-minded).

I'm perfectly willing to consider I could be mistaken about any number of matters. In fact, I sometimes do consider the possibility...and I believe anyone, of any persuasion, who never thinks this way is a monumental boob, by definition.

So, if people believe my views on Israel are naive, that's fine. Excellent. I think they're wrong, but I'm not positive they're wrong.

But if they think I'm an anti-semite...then they ARE wrong. Period. Incontestably. It's not even a matter for rational debate.

And what annoys is that I don't think they're serious. I think they're using the "a-s" bomb as a means of stifling debate, in the manner of the more egregious examples of political correctness.

Edited March 12, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Mr.Canada]

Which is what? That you seem to insinuate the Left is anti-Semitic? As I explained elsewhere, there is an element of the NDP which is pretty close to Marxist-Leninist and has a soft spot for revolutionaries and freedom fighters. I don't think there are many on the Left in this country who hate Jews any more than there are a lot on the Right. I certainly don't agree with painting Israel as some sort of evil Darth Vader power, but nor am I interested in swinging the most serious accusations against groups who really are, more than anything else, far too naive.

Many don't stop at being crtiical of Israel. Any of the marches or protests I have seen have all called for the destruction of Israel. Have called it an aparthied state! This is outrageously anti Semitic, I would hope that you can see that for what it is. At the same time no useful discussion is able to take place while people are using such inflamatory language.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[bloodyminded]

Many don't stop at being crtiical of Israel. Any of the marches or protests I have seen have all called for the destruction of Israel. Have called it an aparthied state! This is outrageously anti Semitic, I would hope that you can see that for what it is. At the same time no useful discussion is able to take place while people are using such inflamatory language.

Calling for the destruction of Israel (which is exceedigly rare, though this charge is repeated so often it has unfortunately grown the sound of "truth" around it like a tumour) is arguably anti-semitic.

Although it's not as clear-cut as you make it here.

But calling it an apartheid state is not anti-semitic.

Israel is a geopolitical entity first and foremost. It's a country. No critiques of a country's behaviour, whether accurate or not, are inherently bigoted towards the ethnic, religious, or cultural aspects that make up the country's majority.

Edited March 12, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Mr.Canada]

Calling for the destruction of Israel (which is exceedigly rare, though this charge is repeated so often it has unfortunately grown the sound of "truth" around it like a tumour) is arguably anti-semitic.

Although it's not as clear-cut as you make it here.

But calling it an apartheid state is not anti-semitic.

Israel is a geopolitical entity first and foremost. It's a country. No critiques of a country's behaviour, whether accurate or not, are inherently bigoted towards the ethnic, religious, or cultural aspects that make up the country's majority.

Israel is not like other countries is the thing. It is the Jewish homeland born out of the Holocaust so it isn't the same as any other country in the world, it is special. It is the only country for the Jews to call their own, safe from oppression and being treated as second class citizens as they are in just about every Muslim nation in the Middle East.

Equating Israels right to defend itself with aprthied diminishes and trivializes the suffering of black South Africans during that period.

[M.Dancer]

So now lets go back the first post and try to stay on topic. I am looking for some reasonable discussion. Here.

No you are not. You are a self admitted troll.

[bloodyminded]

Israel is not like other countries is the thing. It is the Jewish homeland born out of the Holocaust so it isn't the same as any other country in the world, it is special. It is the only country for the Jews to call their own, safe from oppression and being treated as second class citizens as they are in just about every Muslim nation in the Middle East.

Equating Israels right to defend itself with aprthied diminishes and trivializes the suffering of black South Africans during that period.

Obviously I'm not questioning the catastrophic suffering of the Jewish people, so that's an irrelevant point. In fact, I wasn't even offering any criticism of Israel here; I pointed out the elementary truism that a country can be criticized when it is perceived to behave badly.

But more to the point, whether particular criticisms are valid or not, we cannot simply point at critics and say "anti-semite" because we dislike or disagree with the criticism.

That should be obvious enough.

Further, anyone who is too easy and promiscuous with the anti-semite label risks belittling the actual anti-semitism that does exist.

[Mr.Canada]

Obviously I'm not questioning the catastrophic suffering of the Jewish people, so that's an irrelevant point. In fact, I wasn't even offering any criticism of Israel here; I pointed out the elementary truism that a country can be criticized when it is perceived to behave badly.

But more to the point, whether particular criticisms are valid or not, we cannot simply point at critics and say "anti-semite" because we dislike or disagree with the criticism.

That should be obvious enough.

Further, anyone who is too easy and promiscuous with the anti-semite label risks belittling the actual anti-semitism that does exist.

The thing is that Israel is surrounded by countries that don't want Israel to exist and don't recognize Israel as a legitimate country and view Jews a second class citizens. They follow through on this by suicide bombing citizens and launching rocket attacks into Israel. Then when Israel retaliates to protect itself you point fingers at Israel.

If the arabs from countries around Israel behaved themselves none of this would be necessary but they don't. They do all sorts of heinious things then blame Israel for their own actions. The arabs aren't innocent and they're portrayal of themselves as victims is disingenuous.

[bloodyminded]

The thing is that Israel is surrounded by countries that don't want Israel to exist and don't recognize Israel as a legitimate country and view Jews a second class citizens. They follow through on this by suicide bombing citizens and launching rocket attacks into Israel. Then when Israel retaliates to protect itself you point fingers at Israel.

If the arabs from countries around Israel behaved themselves none of this would be necessary but they don't. They do all sorts of heinious things then blame Israel for their own actions. The arabs aren't innocent and they're portrayal of themselves as victims is disingenuous.

But this is a different argument. A deflection.

The point here is that it is not antisemitic to criticize Israel. It is not antisemitic to criticize Israel harshly.

Or too harshly.

Or to be wrong.

None of these things point to anti-semitism.

Hell, these aren't even arguable points, so I find it odd that some people continue to argue against them.

[Mr.Canada]

But this is a different argument. A deflection.

The point here is that it is not antisemitic to criticize Israel. It is not antisemitic to criticize Israel harshly.

Or too harshly.

Or to be wrong.

None of these things point to anti-semitism.

Hell, these aren't even arguable points, so I find it odd that some people continue to argue against them.

New Anti-Semitism

New antisemitism is the name of the concept that a new form of antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, emanating simultaneously from the left, the right, and Islam, and tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and the State of Israel.

The concept generally posits that much of what purports to be criticism of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, is, in fact, tantamount to demonization, and that, together with an alleged international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols, and an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, such demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs.

Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism, anti-globalization, third worldism, and demonization of Israel, or double standards applied to its conduct, may be linked to antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism.

Critics of the concept argue that it conflates anti-Zionism with antisemitism, defines legitimate criticism of Israel too narrowly and demonization too broadly, trivializes the meaning of antisemitism, and exploits antisemitism in order to silence debate.Source

This is what I base my belief that what I percieve to be anti Semitic behaviour.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[bloodyminded]

This is what I base my belief that what I percieve to be anti Semitic behaviour.

"Belief" as in religion.

I agree with the final part quoted.

[Mr.Canada]

"Belief" as in religion.

I agree with the final part quoted.

Well epople are allowed to have separate view points that's fine by me. I will continue to view anti semitism as defined here and by B'nai Brith and a host of other org's.

I wish you well sir/madam.

[bloodyminded]

Well epople are allowed to have separate view points that's fine by me. I will continue to view anti semitism as defined here and by B'nai Brith and a host of other org's.

I wish you well sir/madam.

Right back at you.

[ToadBrother]

Many don't stop at being crtiical of Israel. Any of the marches or protests I have seen have all called for the destruction of Israel. Have called it an aparthied state! This is outrageously anti Semitic, I would hope that you can see that for what it is. At the same time no useful discussion is able to take place while people are using such inflamatory language.

The only marches I see that call for the destruction of Israel are those instigated by Hamas, Hezbollah and various other pro-Palestinian supporters. If you have examples of NDP MPs showing up at marches where the destruction of Israel is called for then provide them, but I'll be blunt, I don't think such evidence exists. You cannot in all honesty assert that some Left-leaning NDPer is the same thing as some Hamas dupe or provocateur.

[ToadBrother]

This is what I base my belief that what I percieve to be anti Semitic behaviour.

That's so ludicrously over-broad as to be worthless. If I condemn Israel for the invasion of Lebanon in 2006, I'm an anti-Semite? If I say that continued building in the occupied territories is unnecessarily provocative, I'm an anti-Semite?

You have this very unusual knack for bringing people of very different opinions together, mainly through disbelief, outrage and disparagement of your over-the-top proclamations and poorly thought out ideas. I'm a staunch pro-Israeli supporter who thinks the Palestinians, by and large, have been the instruments of their own misfortune, but I certainly do not think that everyone who criticizes Israel harbors secret anti-Semitic feelings.

Edited March 12, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Mr.Canada]

That's so ludicrously over-broad as to be worthless. If I condemn Israel for the invasion of Lebanon in 2006, I'm an anti-Semite? If I say that continued building in the occupied territories is unnecessarily provocative, I'm an anti-Semite?

You have this very unusual knack for bringing people of very different opinions together, mainly through disbelief, outrage and disparagement of your over-the-top proclamations and poorly thought out ideas. I'm a staunch pro-Israeli supporter who thinks the Palestinians, by and large, have been the instruments of their own misfortune, but I certainly do not think that everyone who criticizes Israel harbors secret anti-Semitic feelings.

If my idea of anti semitism is worthless to you I'm sorry but this is how B'nai Brith see it as well as any Ziontist org on Earth so I'm afraid you're up against it.

To answer your questions in my own opinion of coarse my answers would be no and no. AntiSemitism doesn't stem from criticism alone TB and if I implied that I apologize as that is not what I intended to portray here.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[JB Globe]

This is what you people are doing. NOt staying on topic or refusing to stay on topic.

Funny, the last time you commented on anything I posted you chimed in on a conversation I was having with someone else, and said this:

In the future please try to actually read something before posting. Yeah we know your teachers are socialists and you're rebelling against your someone who may be conservatives. You like to smoke your bong and demand things. You're part of generation "y" not me, we get it.

You regularly go off-topic and hurl personal insults.

People are tired of you being immature, evasive, disingenuous, and manipulative.

When you behave like that, you shouldn't act all shocked when people stop taking you seriously, and refuse to deal with you anymore.

It takes a special kind of troll to pretend to be outraged that someone is giving them a taste of their own medicine.

Enjoy your own echo chamber.

[Jack Weber]

Ask him,since he claims to be a "union man" what his opinions are with respect to RTW???