Danny Williams: The hypocrisy of Canada's Left

Smallc · February 25, 2010

don't know if he's a Rush Limbaugh type or what. [/size]

That would sum him up nicely...or maybe Glenn Beck.

Smallc · February 25, 2010

When we refuse to pay attention to the problems of healthcare,

Except according to cardiologists, there was no problem here.

bush_cheney2004 · February 25, 2010

Except according to cardiologists, there was no problem here.

Did they have a nice warm condo for him too? On the beach?

Smallc · February 25, 2010

Did they have a nice warm condo for him too? On the beach?

No. There's no problem with him doing what he did. There is a problem with him being a hypocrite and implying that he couldn't get the procedure here.

bush_cheney2004 · February 25, 2010

No. There's no problem with him doing what he did. There is a problem with him being a hypocrite and implying that he couldn't get the procedure here.

It's more than just getting the procedure....he wanted to get it from those who do a lot of 'em. Experience counts....and so does the beach.

Smallc · February 25, 2010

It's more than just getting the procedure....he wanted to get it from those who do a lot of 'em. Experience counts....and so does the beach.

According to the cardiologists on CTV National News tonight, the procedure is done all of the time in Canada. In fact, according to numbers that they have, Canada has better results than the US when it comes to repairing heart valves through all procedures. There is only one reason he went to Florida.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Smallc

msdogfood · February 25, 2010

it will Yes, it will change the debate!!

msj · February 25, 2010

According to the cardiologists on CTV National News tonight, the procedure is done all of the time in Canada. In fact, according to numbers that they have, Canada has better results than the US when it comes to repairing heart valves through all procedures. There is only one reason he went to Florida.

To enjoy the warmth?

To ensure he would get it done in time to come out to BC for the Olympics?

Some other reason?

Man, he must have money to burn if he just wanted to enjoy Florida while getting some work done.

But, you know, kill two birds while damaging your reputation (to some) is always an effective way to govern one's pocketbook and political career.

Smallc · February 25, 2010

To enjoy the warmth?

Well...yes. He went where he had a home so that he could recover there in the sun. If he truly had a serious condition like he said, getting into a hospital in Canada that did the procedure immediately wouldn't have been a problem.

Mr.Canada · February 25, 2010

If someone hasthe money and is preparedto pay a hospital or clinjic to do the procedure right away instead of waiting I say go for it. It's their life. Some people would rather he wait and perhaps die while waiting for treatment. That is sadistic andI don't support that at all.

Smallc · February 25, 2010

If his condition was really serious, as he says, the cardiologists say there is no wait. Only elective procedures have waits.

Mr.Canada · February 25, 2010

If his condition was really serious, as he says, the cardiologists say there is no wait. Only elective procedures have waits.

I have no love for Danny Williams as a Conservative we'd be better off if he were dead so I still say that it's his money let him spend it how he sees fit. I don't care.

However I am sure he's lost any credibility if starts speaking about Canada's healthcare system.

msj · February 25, 2010

Well...yes. He went where he had a home so that he could recover there in the sun. If he truly had a serious condition like he said, getting into a hospital in Canada that did the procedure immediately wouldn't have been a problem.

So, if the procedure wasn't a medical emergency (i.e. he couldn't get in right now) and he wanted to choose the timing of when to get it done, then, to you, it's still not okay to pay for the convenience?

Also, are we certain on the timing of getting the procedure done in Canada without breaking the bone? (the point being - timing of recovery may be even more important than the timing of when to get the procedure done in the first place).

Seems to me that those who want to pry into Danny's personal life should know these facts first before commenting on how he chooses to spend his money for his own sake. (smallc, this isn't meant as a dig against you, it is really a dig against the OP which shows no awareness of any facts (other than Danny getting treatment) and appears to be nothing more than a jealous induced ad hominem attack on Danny Williams).

Edited February 25, 2010 by msj

February 25, 2010

I have no love for Danny Williams as a Conservative we'd be better off if he were dead so I still say that it's his money let him spend it how he sees fit. I don't care.

Williams also said he paid for the treatment, but added he would seek any refunds he would be eligible for in Canada. link

However I am sure he's lost any credibility if starts speaking about Canada's healthcare system.

I agree. This quote is what does it, IMO: "I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."

He's saying Canada wouldn't provide the "best possible health care" for him, even though he could have had the same surgery in Canada.

Smallc · February 25, 2010

So, if the procedure wasn't a medical emergency (i.e. he couldn't get in right now) and he wanted to choose the timing of when to get it done, then, to you, it's still not okay to pay for the convenience?

He can pay for whatever he wants. He still, by doing what he did, became a hypocrite that should have zero credibility from now on, especially on issues of healthcare. He said that the surgery was not offered to him in Canada that he wanted to get. If that's true, then someone wasn't doing their job, as it's available in at least 4 hospitals (definitely more from what I've been hearing) across the country. I'm generally of the opinion though that money should not determine timing or quality of care. Everyone should have quality care available when they need it, if not when they want it.

Also, are we certain on the timing of getting the procedure done in Canada without breaking the bone? (the point being - timing of recovery may be even more important than the timing of when to get the procedure done in the first place).

According to the cardiologists in the article provided earlier, the timing for emergencies is now, no matter what type of surgery is done.

Edit: Also note, the only wait time given (up to three months in Montreal) is for a province that (though it is improving) arguably has some of the highest wait times in the country.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Smallc

Smallc · February 25, 2010

Up to that point, Mr. Williams did his homework relatively well. But then his decision-making went off the rails.
He contacted Lynn McGrath, a Memorial University alumnus who is a cardiovascular surgeon in New Jersey.

Dr. McGrath recommended a surgeon at Mount Sinai Hospital in Miami who does minimally invasive surgery, Joseph Lamelas.

While these men are excellent health-care practitioners, they know little about Canada’s health system.

Had Mr. Williams asked his questions of the right people, he would have learned what procedures are offered in Canada, and that cardiovascular outcomes in this country are as good as in the U.S., and often better.

The surgery that Mr. Williams wanted and was medically appropriate was not available in St. John’s, but is available in at least seven Canadian cities.

(And let’s dismiss quickly the suggestion that every procedure should be offered in small centres like St. John’s. In surgery, high volumes translate into better quality and safety, so it is wise to bring patients to central locations.)

If he’d sought advice in Canada, Mr. Williams would also have learned that minimally invasive surgery, despite the hype, is not necessarily the best option for his condition.

William's heart surgery choice was based On Ignorance

Very interesting editorial.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Smallc

msj · February 25, 2010

According to the cardiologists in the article provided earlier, the timing for emergencies is now, no matter what type of surgery is done.

Edit: Also note, the only wait time given (up to three months in Montreal) is for a province that (though it is improving) arguably has some of the highest wait times in the country.

I don't think it was a medical emergency so I think that he would have waited at least for a little while.

Maybe he didn't want to wait.

Or maybe he didn't ask enough questions on getting care in Canada.

Or maybe he was told something in error by his own doctor about getting care in Canada and took the opportunity to get care in the US due to his connections there.

As the link to that article you provide in a separate post above states - maybe it was based on ignorance?

So?

It's his money and his choice.

Even Premiers make poor decisions about their own health. BFD.

One more thing - I was just going to come back and post that link from the G&M myself.

I disagree with the tone and some of the view points of Andre Picard, but I give him credit for at least explaining to me that side of the issue which, so far, only you and maybe one other poster in this forum, have been able to adequately explain.

As for the OP - I guess it got it all started and sometimes I like to post a bunch of nonsense to stir the pot and see what sticks, too. The ad hominem attack on Danny Williams, however, is just stupid, though.

bush_cheney2004 · February 25, 2010

If his condition was really serious, as he says, the cardiologists say there is no wait. Only elective procedures have waits.

They say a lot of things....which mostly means Canadians have to wait. This decision gets easier and easier the more we learn about what/where/when the procedure was available. No brainer.....

Smallc · February 25, 2010

They say a lot of things

Yeah, who cares what doctors say? :rolleyes:

Smallc · February 25, 2010

The ad hominem attack on Danny Williams, however, is just stupid, though.

It might be wrong to attack Mr. Williams, but then, he isn't doing himself any favours with the arrogance of his explanations....or his lack of explanations to start. And yes, it seems it wasn't an emergency, but it was urgent, meaning the wait would be short. As one doctor from the Peter Munk Centre for Cardiac Science said, their average elective heart surgery wait time is about 2 weeks...and not too many people want to rush into a surgery any faster than that if they don't have to.

Smallc · February 25, 2010

As the link to that article you provide in a separate post above states - maybe it was based on ignorance?

I was actually taking about the CBC article I posted early in the thread. Doctors have been very put off by the portrayal of their abilities.

bush_cheney2004 · February 25, 2010

I was actually taking about the CBC article I posted early in the thread. Doctors have been very put off by the portrayal of their abilities.

Too bad....people who have the choice will often exercise same. Including those very same doctors who flee south! :lol:

Edited February 25, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

msj · February 25, 2010

Williams also said he paid for the treatment, but added he would seek any refunds he would be eligible for in Canada. link

Well, he should get the tax break since that's how the rules work.

If that procedure cost him $80,000 then he would save ~$18,000 in taxes on his Newfoundland tax return (in BC, it would only be about $15,600 because BC has lower tax rates - for those who may remember my posting on this issue yesterday).

So, if Danny is making $150,000 per year as Premier (presumably his other wealth is sheltered and taxed through trusts, corporations, and tax deferred in RRSP's etc) then he is paying ~$33,000 in taxes rather than the usual $51,000 in taxes.

Just so we are clear on this:

Danny saves the Canadian system, say, $80,000 in costs to fix him.

He then pays only $33,000 in taxes for 2010 rather the $51,000.

The nerve of him to apply the tax laws properly! I mean, Canada is getting such a raw deal on this. :rolleyes:

Smallc · February 25, 2010

Well, he should get the tax break since that's how the rules work.

If that procedure cost him $80,000 then he would save ~$18,000 in taxes on his Newfoundland tax return (in BC, it would only be about $15,600 because BC has lower tax rates - for those who may remember my posting on this issue yesterday).

So, if Danny is making $150,000 per year as Premier

Interesting to note, Williams doesn't keep his salary, but rather donates all of it to charity.

scorpio · February 25, 2010

I was actually taking about the CBC article I posted early in the thread. Doctors have been very put off by the portrayal of their abilities.

As well they should be. Williams owes a huge apology to the very abled Canadian Cardiologists/surgeons who perform this procedure. But I won't be holding my breath.