DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Do you have a better source for Geert's beliefs? Why stick to Geert Wilders? Is he alone in his views on Islam? Of course not. She also needs 24/7 protection from The Religion of Peace ™ God, perhaps? I don't believe in invisible supernatural beings. Do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Why stick to Geert Wilders? Is he alone in his views on Islam? Of course not. She also needs 24/7 protection from The Religion of Peace ™ I don't believe in invisible supernatural beings. Do you? I don't believe in God, no. But I don't understand why you keep insisting on making the same point...which isn't a refutaiton of what I've said. It has nothing to do with what I've said. I only pointed out that Geert is not some free speech hero. That's it. This incontestable truism seems to have you angered. Blame Wilders; it's all his fault, and not even slightly my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Banning the Qu'ran is obviously not warranted. Everyone should have the opportunity to see and laugh at these kinds of religious books for themselves. As mentioned, any attempt to ban it would be futile anyway, since you can find it easily on the web. Drastically reducing Muslim immigration to Western countries though is something that should be looked at more closely. Wilders isn't infallible, obviously not all of his proposals make sense (such as banning the book), but he makes many valid points and certainly doesn't deserve to be imprisoned for speaking out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 I don't believe in God, no. But I don't understand why you keep insisting on making the same point...which isn't a refutaiton of what I've said. It has nothing to do with what I've said. I only pointed out that Geert is not some free speech hero. That's it. This incontestable truism seems to have you angered. Blame Wilders; it's all his fault, and not even slightly my own. ...and I pointed out that you really don't know if Geert Wilders is a 'free speech hero' or not. Being that he's on trial for saying the Koran is akin to Mein Kampf rather than those threatening his life it's really quite the joke. It shows me so-called free speech only matters to the Dutch if accompanied by violence. Geert, I suppose they figure, isn't going to go Jihad on their sorry rear-ends while the others certainly will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 ...and I pointed out that you really don't know if Geert Wilders is a 'free speech hero' or not. On the contrary, I know he is not. He doesn't believe in free speech. He said so himself, DoP; how many times do I need to link to HIS own words? Being that he's on trial for saying the Koran is akin to Mein Kampf rather than those threatening his life it's really quite the joke. It shows me so-called free speech only matters to the Dutch if accompanied by violence. Geert, I suppose they figure, isn't going to go Jihad on their sorry rear-ends while the others certainly will. But I have agreed all along that he shouldn't be imprisoned for his views. I find that deplorable. Unlike Geert, you see, I believe in free speech. That is, I actually, truly, sincerely believe in it. And believing in free speech means you support the right of people to espouse views you disagree with...or even that you despise. Holy cow, Wilders' admirers must consider ME a free speech hero! Oh wait, no; their admiration is entirely partisan. And not about principle at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 And believing in free speech means you support the right of people to espouse views you disagree with...or even that you despise. But of course. Even when they threaten your and your family's lives...kill your friends...run fellow politicians out of the country. But as I mentioned, you'd never do anything to upset your potential masters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 But of course. Even when they threaten your and your family's lives...kill your friends...run fellow politicians out of the country. But as I mentioned, you'd never do anything to upset your potential masters. But the Koran is not doing any of these things. Some fanatics citing the Koran are doing these things. Wilders thinks the Koran itself should be banned. Because he, too, is a fanatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 And as mentioned, Wilders said it would never happen...wanting more to say such a thing for the effect it caused...which got the violent reaction he was after. He called it a 'warning' to the radical elements in Holland...which I'm sure even you'll admit exist in large numbers in Europe's more liberal societies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 And as mentioned, Wilders said it would never happen...wanting more to say such a thing for the effect it caused...which got the violent reaction he was after. He called it a 'warning' to the radical elements in Holland...which I'm sure even you'll admit exist in large numbers in Europe's more liberal societies. Sure he knows it would never happen. But a free speech advocate wouldn't wish it to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Sure he knows it would never happen. But a free speech advocate wouldn't wish it to happen. You don't know what any so-called 'free speech advoacte' would wish. I do admire your aspirations towards God-hood, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 You don't know what any so-called 'free speech advoacte' would wish. I do admire your aspirations towards God-hood, though. What the hell are you talking about? "Godhood"? A free speech advocate is someone who believes in free speech. That includes supporting the right to speech for those with whom you disagree. It's not complicated. And anyone who can't understand these basic principles (as you are insisting you cannot) simply does not support free speech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 What the hell are you talking about? "Godhood"? Your ability to read minds without actually meeting or knowing said individual. I must admit, I do not have these amazing powers that you apparenty possess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Your ability to read minds without actually meeting or knowing said individual. I must admit, I do not have these amazing powers that you apparenty possess. Yes, that's true. I have the power to see that when Wilders claims the Koran should be banned...he doesn't support free speech. Very sophisticated analysis on my part, understanding words. Also, quoting you directly (which generated your response here)...how do I manage such feats of mind-reading? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Does the Koran promote violence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Does the Koran promote violence? Only for fanatics. Hell, if "promoting violence" was the issue, we'd have to ban the Judeo-Christian Bible as well. I have no use for either religion. But to say we should ban these books is...well, surely I don't have to repeat it again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Only for fanatics. What constitutes a fanatic? Hell, if "promoting violence" was the issue, we'd have to ban the Judeo-Christian Bible as well. There had to be at least a dozen events just last week alone where the Bible was used to promote violence via Christian terrorists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 What constitutes a fanatic? There had to be at least a dozen events just last week alone where the Bible was used to promote violence via Christian terrorists. So..are you saying these books should be banned? And this is not a loaded question; while I hope it's obvious by now that I would not support the banning of these books, I'm aware that there are other banned books. So there is precedence (although religious texts with billions of followers isn't quite the same as a book written by one individual, with far, far, far less historical import.) But to think: all this "debate" simply because I showed (with Wilders' own words) that he is not a free speech supporter. Funnily, since this is self-evident, I didn't even think the point controversial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) What constitutes a fanatic? But to think: all this "debate" simply because I showed (with Wilders' own words) that he is not a free speech supporter. That's a fallacy...similar to being tolerant towards intolerance. I think you know that, too. Holland has laws against the very things the Koran states openly and, more importantly, which various elements and individuals inside Islamic society act on. The Dutch government...according to Wilders...is being selective as to what is 'hate speech' and what is not. He's right in that respect. Either they are both on or off the shelf. So there is precedence (although religious texts with billions of followers isn't quite the same as a book written by one individual, with far, far, far less historical import.) That's up for debate. As well, modern Islam has a bit of a record re: agreeing if not fully cooperating with National Socialism. So..are you saying these books should be banned? I've already stated that it is impossible and pointless to ban books in the internet age. Edited February 23, 2010 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Speaking of banning books...are you familiar with 'The Poor Man's James Bond', the 'SAS Survival Guide' and the 'Anarchist Cookbook'? Canada gave it the ol' college try keeping these out of the hands of fireworks armed teens with a keen interest in blowing-up the family Volvo. Photocopied versions became all the rage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) Speaking of banning books...are you familiar with 'The Poor Man's James Bond', the 'SAS Survival Guide' and the 'Anarchist Cookbook'? Canada gave it the ol' college try keeping these out of the hands of fireworks armed teens with a keen interest in blowing-up the family Volvo. Photocopied versions became all the rage. Yes, I am aware that Canada has some draconian laws about books. Christ, one more time: my thesis: Wilders does not support free speech. your answer to this is that the Dutch and Canadian governments also don't. I agree, but so what? How in the world is that an answer? But this thread began with videos about Wilders, with little titles like "free speech or hate speech?" and "free speech on trial." I pointed out the tasty irony...that Wilders himself has explcitly stated his opposition to the principles of free speech. It's as if I said that Goebbels was a Nazi...and your continued response is, "Well, what about Germany? It was a Nazi state!" Yep. Irrelevant to the argument. Edited February 24, 2010 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 Hey...both you and I know Wilders is on 'trial' because he stands a good chance at cleaning-up in the next election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) Hey...both you and I know Wilders is on 'trial' because he stands a good chance at cleaning-up in the next election. I don't "know" any such thing. However, I would find this believable, certainly. Don't mistake my dislike for Wilders' fantastic hypocrisy as support for his prosecution. Edited February 24, 2010 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 I don't "know" any such thing. However, I would find this believable, certainly. Don't mistake my dislike for Wilders' fantastic hypocrisy as support for his prosecution. Meh...that's the rumor. The fellow is popular with the wooden shoe/windmill crowd. I'm not sure how the Dutch coalition falling apart will play into it. None-the-less...some proponent of 'free speech' saw fit to take Wilders to task via this trial. Shades of Ezra Levant. He's the one with the 24 hour guard around him re: assassins, afterall...an Arabic word, ironically enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 Hey...both you and I know Wilders is on 'trial' because he stands a good chance at cleaning-up in the next election. not much chance of that, they'll form a coalition government without him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) not much chance of that, they'll form a coalition government without him... Well they're certainly hoping they can...but seeing this one just fell apart, we'll see if they can gather 4 conflicting parties into a working government. Edited February 24, 2010 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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