Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 5, 2010 Report Posted January 5, 2010 CBC News It seems that the process has begun of ending the PC dynasty in Alberta. Quote
Wild Bill Posted January 5, 2010 Report Posted January 5, 2010 CBC News It seems that the process has begun of ending the PC dynasty in Alberta. Yeah, it seems to be starting, Jerry. What I find interesting is that it doesn't at all seem to be a case of people getting tired of an incumbent party. Rather, an incumbent party has decided to change its philosophy in its approach to governing. It's support base seems to have said that they liked things the way they were and now are choosing another party more like the original style of the incumbent. Contrast this with what happened in Ontario with Mike Harris. As soon as he stepped down his party couldn't wait to swing more left! They were convinced that their ticket to staying in office was to be as little like Mike's style as possible. We can't tell for sure if this was the reason they promptly got their electoral asses handed to them on a platter but it does make one wonder. I find it strange that in the past few decades the spectacular voting successes have gone to more "right wing" leaders yet their parties always seem to be afraid to go that route, preferring to give us "centrist" leaders in beige suits with brown shoes. I mean, there hasn't been as successful a Liberal leader since Trudeau! They've stayed in power but never with those kinds of majorities. It's pretty obvious that NO party really wants to give the public what they want, whether it's a policy or just the integrity of committing to stick to their promises! Anyhow, I say more power to the Wild Rose! They had supported a party that tried to renege on what the people wanted. The people are kicking their asses for doing it! To a populist like me, it looks great! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Oleg Bach Posted January 5, 2010 Report Posted January 5, 2010 Alberta is a gem. Please never change. Even if you were broke you would still be of great value to the nation because of your independent thinking and fierce loyality your own. Your power and wealth is not dependent on oil but on your culture. Quote
Alta4ever Posted January 5, 2010 Report Posted January 5, 2010 I was wondering how long this would take to show up here. The Wildrose is getting into a sticky situation just how many PC's do you let cross the floor. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Wild Bill Posted January 5, 2010 Report Posted January 5, 2010 (edited) I was wondering how long this would take to show up here. The Wildrose is getting into a sticky situation just how many PC's do you let cross the floor. All of them! Except their party leader, of course. And all of his advisers should be shunned as incompetent. It also goes without saying that all who cross the floor must face open nominations for their riding come next election. Edited January 5, 2010 by Wild Bill Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
scorpio Posted January 5, 2010 Report Posted January 5, 2010 This "defection" is nothing more than shuffling chairs on the Titanic. Quote
wyly Posted January 5, 2010 Report Posted January 5, 2010 This "defection" is nothing more than shuffling chairs on the Titanic. yup...six of one half dozen of the other...rats fleeing a sinking ship all trying to save their pensions and the Alberta simpletons will never figure it out that's what it's all about... it'll be a while yet to the next election it'll be too funny if the conservatives recover and those ship jumping opportunists all lose their pensions...it's a sure thing an election issue will be the wildrose leaders open opposition to medicare... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Alta4ever Posted January 5, 2010 Report Posted January 5, 2010 (edited) yup...six of one half dozen of the other...rats fleeing a sinking ship all trying to save their pensions and the Alberta simpletons will never figure it out that's what it's all about... it'll be a while yet to the next election it'll be too funny if the conservatives recover and those ship jumping opportunists all lose their pensions...it's a sure thing an election issue will be the wildrose leaders open opposition to medicare... Shows how little you know about Alberta politics, Heathers pension is already maxed out and Rob hasn't even sat one term yet so no pension yet to save..... I question their motives but the pension wasn't it. Maybe just a steady pay check Edited January 5, 2010 by Alta4ever Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 6, 2010 Author Report Posted January 6, 2010 Shows how little you know about Alberta politics, Heathers pension is already maxed out and Rob hasn't even sat one term yet so no pension yet to save..... I question their motives but the pension wasn't it. Maybe just a steady pay check Question their motives? You are kidding right? The trough is deep and tasty on the tax payer dime! They see the PC's taking a bath with the latest polling just as well as you or I have. They just want to keep their jobs, nothing more than you or I would. Quote
Alta4ever Posted January 6, 2010 Report Posted January 6, 2010 Question their motives? You are kidding right? The trough is deep and tasty on the tax payer dime! They see the PC's taking a bath with the latest polling just as well as you or I have. They just want to keep their jobs, nothing more than you or I would. I think the paycheck is the most likely motive, for both, but for different reasons. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 6, 2010 Author Report Posted January 6, 2010 I think the paycheck is the most likely motive, for both, but for different reasons. I can agree with that. Quote
Hydraboss Posted January 6, 2010 Report Posted January 6, 2010 I cannot express enough how much I disapprove of this slimy move. If the WRA wanted to show up as legitimate in the eyes of the right wing, they would have INSISTED that these two step down and run as WRA candidates in by-elections. They have been my party of choice for years (Alberta Alliance), but they just fell down a few notches in my estimations. Danielle has already begun to explain away why the party broke it's own constitution but will never be able to account for it. Got too greedy too fast. She should do the honorable thing and insist that, even as WRA MLA's, they now announce they are stepping down to run in by-elections. And she better do it soon or she'll be no better than the bus driver. Quote "racist, intolerant, small-minded bigot" - AND APPARENTLY A SOCIALIST (2010) (2015)Economic Left/Right: 8.38 3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.13 -1.23
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 6, 2010 Author Report Posted January 6, 2010 I cannot express enough how much I disapprove of this slimy move. If the WRA wanted to show up as legitimate in the eyes of the right wing, they would have INSISTED that these two step down and run as WRA candidates in by-elections. They have been my party of choice for years (Alberta Alliance), but they just fell down a few notches in my estimations. Danielle has already begun to explain away why the party broke it's own constitution but will never be able to account for it. Got too greedy too fast. She should do the honorable thing and insist that, even as WRA MLA's, they now announce they are stepping down to run in by-elections. And she better do it soon or she'll be no better than the bus driver. Is that written in their constitution, or policy somewhere? Sorry not a party member or privy to that information.... Quote
Hydraboss Posted January 6, 2010 Report Posted January 6, 2010 Is that written in their constitution, or policy somewhere? Sorry not a party member or privy to that information.... It was part of the constitution of the Alberta Alliance where most of us came from, but the new WRA site doesn't list it anymore. Go figure. Quote "racist, intolerant, small-minded bigot" - AND APPARENTLY A SOCIALIST (2010) (2015)Economic Left/Right: 8.38 3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.13 -1.23
madmax Posted January 6, 2010 Report Posted January 6, 2010 Yeah, it seems to be starting, Jerry. What I find interesting is that it doesn't at all seem to be a case of people getting tired of an incumbent party. Rather, an incumbent party has decided to change its philosophy in its approach to governing. To a populist like me, it looks great! Then they should step down and have a By Election. People who worked on their campaigns weren't from the Wildrose. People who donated to their campaign weren't from the Wildrose. However, as we have seen that Reform principle doesn't appear to have any merit with the Wildrose, anymore then it had with the Harper Conservatives. As for the fact that the Wildrose has no platform it is an easy default party as people can make it appear whatever they think. Not saying that this is a bad thing. Just stating the obvious. Quote
Wild Bill Posted January 8, 2010 Report Posted January 8, 2010 Then they should step down and have a By Election. People who worked on their campaigns weren't from the Wildrose. People who donated to their campaign weren't from the Wildrose. However, as we have seen that Reform principle doesn't appear to have any merit with the Wildrose, anymore then it had with the Harper Conservatives. As for the fact that the Wildrose has no platform it is an easy default party as people can make it appear whatever they think. Not saying that this is a bad thing. Just stating the obvious. Well, technically I'd agree with you but in this case it might be a case of overkill. After all, the Wild Rose IS more like the Conservative Party for which they had all voted! It was the Conservative Party under Fast Eddie that dramatically changed, becoming something that all those people who worked for Conservative campaigns had NOT supported! If pinned to the wall I'd have to take your side but I rather think it would prove to be just an expensive formality. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Hydraboss Posted January 8, 2010 Report Posted January 8, 2010 Well, technically I'd agree with you but in this case it might be a case of overkill. After all, the Wild Rose IS more like the Conservative Party for which they had all voted! It was the Conservative Party under Fast Eddie that dramatically changed, becoming something that all those people who worked for Conservative campaigns had NOT supported! If pinned to the wall I'd have to take your side but I rather think it would prove to be just an expensive formality. So then they should set a date....say May 1/10....and announce that all WRA MLA's that cross from other parties will run in simultaneous by-elections. That gives them an excuse to use with the Alberta public, a certain amount of shared costs, and since the next provincial election is about two years away - the new WRA MLA's could use their victories (if any) to beat the PC's and Eddie over the head. If let's say five or six members crossed and most or all of them won their by-elections by landslides (Albertans don't tend to vote a little in any direction), Eddie may even be forced to step down. THEN we'd finally have a horse race! Quote "racist, intolerant, small-minded bigot" - AND APPARENTLY A SOCIALIST (2010) (2015)Economic Left/Right: 8.38 3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.13 -1.23
madmax Posted January 8, 2010 Report Posted January 8, 2010 So then they should set a date....say May 1/10....and announce that all WRA MLA's that cross from other parties will run in simultaneous by-elections. That gives them an excuse to use with the Alberta public, a certain amount of shared costs, and since the next provincial election is about two years away - the new WRA MLA's could use their victories (if any) to beat the PC's and Eddie over the head. If let's say five or six members crossed and most or all of them won their by-elections by landslides (Albertans don't tend to vote a little in any direction), Eddie may even be forced to step down. THEN we'd finally have a horse race! WOW!!! Could that happen? "Make is so" Quote
Hydraboss Posted January 8, 2010 Report Posted January 8, 2010 WOW!!! Could that happen? "Make is so" Danielle Smith (through the party) could make a public announcement that in place of mandatory by-elections taking place if an MLA crosses the floor, that the WRA is going to hold annual (or whatever) mass by-elections on XXX date each year that there is a floor-crossing. Picture this: John Smith of the PC's decides to move to the WRA. He can make the switch, but within 12 months (or six months or 3 months - whatever the WRA decides to put into party policy) he must face the electors in his riding. This would encourage John to come out publicly and say why he's going to run for the WRA and give the PC's some amount of time to find a suitable replacement to run against him. John has an advantage in that he is the incumbent and the voters elected him previously. But John also has disadvantages in that there will be a segment that is angry because he crossed, and those people that vote the party (as everyone seems to think about Albertans) instead of the candidate will just vote for the new PC guy. Overall, it becomes a pretty fair fight and John had better be doing a good job or he'll be turfed. I'd love to see it. Quote "racist, intolerant, small-minded bigot" - AND APPARENTLY A SOCIALIST (2010) (2015)Economic Left/Right: 8.38 3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.13 -1.23
Wild Bill Posted January 8, 2010 Report Posted January 8, 2010 Danielle Smith (through the party) could make a public announcement that in place of mandatory by-elections taking place if an MLA crosses the floor, that the WRA is going to hold annual (or whatever) mass by-elections on XXX date each year that there is a floor-crossing. Picture this: John Smith of the PC's decides to move to the WRA. He can make the switch, but within 12 months (or six months or 3 months - whatever the WRA decides to put into party policy) he must face the electors in his riding. This would encourage John to come out publicly and say why he's going to run for the WRA and give the PC's some amount of time to find a suitable replacement to run against him. John has an advantage in that he is the incumbent and the voters elected him previously. But John also has disadvantages in that there will be a segment that is angry because he crossed, and those people that vote the party (as everyone seems to think about Albertans) instead of the candidate will just vote for the new PC guy. Overall, it becomes a pretty fair fight and John had better be doing a good job or he'll be turfed. I'd love to see it. So would I but there's something I don't understand. Isn't it only the party in power that has the ability to call by-elections? Last I checked Ms. Smith was leading a very small opposition party. I wouldn't think that legally she had the right to call for a coffee break! That being said, I don't believe there's anything to stop floor-crossing MPP/MLA's from resigning as a group. I would expect that would force by-elections. I'm not disagreeing with your idea, just with your methods. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Hydraboss Posted January 8, 2010 Report Posted January 8, 2010 So would I but there's something I don't understand. Isn't it only the party in power that has the ability to call by-elections? Last I checked Ms. Smith was leading a very small opposition party. I wouldn't think that legally she had the right to call for a coffee break! That being said, I don't believe there's anything to stop floor-crossing MPP/MLA's from resigning as a group. I would expect that would force by-elections. I'm not disagreeing with your idea, just with your methods. Maybe I should have been more clear. If John Smith joins the WRA, he can step down as an MLA without having to leave the party. That automatically forces a by-election. Sorry about that. Quote "racist, intolerant, small-minded bigot" - AND APPARENTLY A SOCIALIST (2010) (2015)Economic Left/Right: 8.38 3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.13 -1.23
wyly Posted January 9, 2010 Report Posted January 9, 2010 Maybe I should have been more clear. If John Smith joins the WRA, he can step down as an MLA without having to leave the party. That automatically forces a by-election. Sorry about that. no rules against what they've done but I think those who leave their party should sit as independents, it would be fair to those who elected them...if they want to join another party they should resign and hold a by-election... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
C.Morgan Posted January 9, 2010 Report Posted January 9, 2010 no rules against what they've done but I think those who leave their party should sit as independents, it would be fair to those who elected them...if they want to join another party they should resign and hold a by-election... Just want to correct a couple things and point out another. The party constitution for the WAP is available on the party website and it always has been. It can be found here: http://www.wildrosealliance.ca/about/our-constitution It will be found that the constitution does not address floor crossing so the person who implied that the party broke it's constitution and implied that it is not available on the website was mistaken on both counts. Regarding by-elections I just would like to make one point. If members resign, the Premier has as long as six months to call a by-election. You can rest assured that Ed would stretch that out to the maximum so the two constituencies that already had essentially no representation (gagged MLAs) would have literally no representation for at least 6 months. Just wanted to point that out. Quote
wyly Posted January 9, 2010 Report Posted January 9, 2010 Just want to correct a couple things and point out another. The party constitution for the WAP is available on the party website and it always has been. It can be found here: http://www.wildrosealliance.ca/about/our-constitution It will be found that the constitution does not address floor crossing so the person who implied that the party broke it's constitution and implied that it is not available on the website was mistaken on both counts. Regarding by-elections I just would like to make one point. If members resign, the Premier has as long as six months to call a by-election. You can rest assured that Ed would stretch that out to the maximum so the two constituencies that already had essentially no representation (gagged MLAs) would have literally no representation for at least 6 months. Just wanted to point that out. fairness is bigger than any one party...I think they should sit as independents...I know the premier has that power but in fairness to constituents by-elections just should scheduled from the date of resignation, 60-90 days should be adequate.. Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Alta4ever Posted January 10, 2010 Report Posted January 10, 2010 no rules against what they've done but I think those who leave their party should sit as independents, it would be fair to those who elected them...if they want to join another party they should resign and hold a by-election... they will have to atone for their actions in the next election, that is good enough. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
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