Immigration

[Argus]

Someone told me the other day that the French and the English should stop fighting because the official languages of Canada in fifty years are going to be Chinese and Arabic.

Exactly. It could happen.

I don't want it to happen. Because that would indicate that our present fairly sophisticated culture had been swamped by people from less sophisticated but more populous cultures. I don't think a Canada based on Sharia law where women get executed for "shaming their families" by being raped is one to look forward to.

Well, I'm sure that the Native americans thought the same way about early 'Canadians'.

Did they? Has it happened?

Rather obviously so, and not to their advantage either.

[d4dev]

A secular society means......

I was talking about a secular state. How the heck are you going to enforce a 'secular society?'

and let women walk around showing their navels even if it gives the Muslims apoplexy.

Muslims don't mind if other women go around naked. It's Muslim women that they say should be covered. And I don't see how any of that is your concern since that is an issue of religious freedom.

And what? They were wrong? Maybe if enough of them HAD thought that early enough they wouldn't be sitting on reserves wondering what happened to their country, huh?

My point is that throughout history, a land is dominated by people of different cultures and customs. No one can forcibly stop change, and no one should try to. I'm not saying that we should give up our culture and values, there's no reason for us to. Nor should we try not to preserve our society in the current state. But history shows us that such efforts will all go in vain.

[August1991]

Right now most Christians, and Jews, btw, are fairly laid back about their religion. Most Muslims, especially newcome, are far, far from that.

Argus, you underestimate the wonderful feeling of freedom.

In Canadian history, Christians were not "laid back" at all. (Do you know how Canadians voted in the past?) The history of Jews and Canadian Christians is, well, quite a history. I'd say most Jews are laid back now - compared to their grandfathers (in part because the gentiles are less uptight).

What percentage of Canadians are Muslim? (You find the stat, Argus. Better, what's the Muslim growth rate?)

You know this and I know this. Canada (and America) is "Romeo and Juliet", "West Side Story" or "Pocahontas" writ large. How many decent, honest Muslim kids are finding ways around their parents' rules tonight? Freedom. Unbeatable.

[Argus]

This is simply insulting to all Canadians. You're essentially saying there is no such thing as a Canadian except as a legal declaration on a form.

You tell me, how is being Canadian significantly different from being British? I have lived in the UK, and except for the difference in the accent, there isn't much difference between us. And that's obvious, since all Canadians (or most of them) are essentially of British and French origin.

How do I explain that in a medium like this? How do I describe something as euphemeral as who a people are in a few sentences? How about lack of a class structure, and the thinking which accompanies it? How about what I think is a somewhat greater respect for the individual here, and their privacy and rights - and obligatioins, and a greater openness towards others? Can you imagine having to put huge fences around a football field to keep Canadians from rioting on the field every game? That would be so rude! We'd never do that!

Because this is OUR country. We built it into something great while they were, by and large, building sh*tholes of violence, poverty,misery, hatred, ignorance and religious extremism with their "older more diverse cultures". And I don't want people who subscribe to those failed cultures to swamp ours. I want them to become more like us, not us to become more like the sh*tholes they left behind.

Your generalisation, besides being terribly wrong, also displays your ignorance of world history. No country every built a shithole for itself.

Now who's generalizing? People and their governments make dumb mistakes throughout history, and get screwed over because of it. They can't accomodate themselves to changing circumstances and challenges, or can't reconcile themselves to the need for compromise. Lots of countries tear themselves apart without any help from anyone else.

Throughout history, the countries with better weapons and more power colonised other countries, and the reason that most of the developed world is 'developed' today is because generations back, they looted the wealth of weaker Asian countries, which were culturally much more advanced than Europeans, but militarily lagged behind.

I think the European world progressed because of better ideas for governing and organization themselves, not weapons. By the time they were in a position to put any pressure on the Asians they'd already been through the reformation. The Chinese were still a peasant people largely ruled by provincial warlords. Yes, the strong always preyed on the weak. But what made the Europeans strong and the Chinese weak? They were the ones who invented gunpowder remember, and they were hardly a peaceful people. Likewise the Arabs were more advanced than the Europeans at one point, better organized, with better government, but the Europeans overtook them. Why?

For example, you don't like Chinese people. But the Chinese had their own empires when Europeans were only nomads.

Would you care to show me anywhere I implied that I don't like Chinese people? I like them fine, just not as well as I like Canadian people. And I don't think it's very good for Canada when foreigners of any kind outnumber those who were born here. And I don't really care what the Chinese did long ago in history. I'm more interested in what kind of a country it is now. And right now it's not one I'd care to be living in.

[August1991]

How do I explain that in a medium like this? How do I describe something as euphemeral as who a people are in a few sentences? How about lack of a class structure, and the thinking which accompanies it?

Argus, how do I explain in a medium like this why people from Canada and America died abroad "defending freedom"?

You Brits apparently fought for nation or class. What do you think of the Brits who came here (ages ago) and then went abroad to fight again? Why? King and Country? (The Yanks?)

[Michael Hardner]

Discrimination? I'm talking about selecting people, not based on any other criteria but what will be best for Canada, both economically and socially.

You're talking about discrimination to solve a problem that is really only in your mind. The cure is worse than the disease.

[takeanumber]

But because most immigrants today are visible minorities any call for a cutback or change to immigration seems to instantly draw screams of racism from the usual suspects (ie, the left, the media, assorted government paid ethnic representatives, etc.)

Well, I won't scream racism.

I will say this though:

Immigration is very important to this country because they're contributions to this country, and the youth that they bring (in real demographic terms), is going to fund your CPP when you get old.

And mine.

Don't like the ethnic composition of Toronto?

Breed.

[Argus]

A secular society means......

I was talking about a secular state. How the heck are you going to enforce a 'secular society?'

You can't enforce a secular society. A society takes the pattern of the people who make up that society. If you add in hundreds of thousands, then millions of extremely religious people then that society is going to become more oriented towards the teachings of that religion.

and let women walk around showing their navels even if it gives the Muslims apoplexy.

Muslims don't mind if other women go around naked. It's Muslim women that they say should be covered. And I don't see how any of that is your concern since that is an issue of religious freedom.

Muslim countries make no efforts at differentiating between Muslims and non Muslims when it comes to obeying Muslim law. Do you think a woman would be safe walking around downtown Tehran dressed as a typical Canadian teenager? How about Ryadh? Cairo?

And what? They were wrong? Maybe if enough of them HAD thought that early enough they wouldn't be sitting on reserves wondering what happened to their country, huh?

My point is that throughout history, a land is dominated by people of different cultures and customs. No one can forcibly stop change, and no one should try to.

I dunno. It seems to me the point you made above was that if the natives had shoved the Europeans back into the ocean before they were outnumbered they'd still have a country. If we like things the way they are why should we keep bringing in a quarter million outsiders every year to change things to the way THEY want? The British have greatly curtailed immigration, as have a number of other countries - most recently the Danes. Why can't we do the same?

[Argus]

Right now most Christians, and Jews, btw, are fairly laid back about their religion. Most Muslims, especially newcome, are far, far from that.

Argus, you underestimate the wonderful feeling of freedom.

When I see stats which say that over 90% of 3rd generation Turkish men in Denmark go back to Turkey for brides I have to wonder about the desire to go forward as opposed to the desire for "traditional" behaviour. All I see and hear from Muslims in Canada is condemnation of our permissive society, ferocious dissaproval of our sexual mores, and determination to stay the way they are because that's the way GOD has decreed. Freedom? Has freedom inspired the Mennonites, Amish or Hutterites to renounce their old ways. What makes you think it will change the Muslims?

What percentage of Canadians are Muslim?  (You find the stat, Argus.  Better, what's the Muslim growth rate?)

A few decades back, the census figures on muslims were so low(about 5,000) that they weren't even included except as part of the "other" category. Now there are estimated to be about 1 million of them. That's a

20,000% percent increase in a few decades.

If Muslims change to become more laid back, less rigid in their determination to live life by God's laws then I'll be perfectly happy with them. I don't care what religion people worship in their own private lives. But when there are a lot of people who are determined to live by the way they see God's will and those people vote, then that is going to affect my society and me.

[Argus]

How do I explain that in a medium like this? How do I describe something as euphemeral as who a people are in a few sentences? How about lack of a class structure, and the thinking which accompanies it?

Argus, how do I explain in a medium like this why people from Canada and America died abroad "defending freedom"?

You Brits apparently fought for nation or class. What do you think of the Brits who came here (ages ago) and then went abroad to fight again? Why? King and Country? (The Yanks?)

You are apparently even more confused in this post than is your usual wont. I am not defending class structures. He asked how Canada was different from the UK. I said how about our lack of a class structure. I do not consider the British class structure to be a good thing. And I'm not British. Stop making foolish assumptions.

[Argus]

Discrimination? I'm talking about selecting people, not based on any other criteria but what will be best for Canada, both economically and socially.

You're talking about discrimination to solve a problem that is really only in your mind. The cure is worse than the disease.

The problem you see as only in my mind is being manifested in statistics which show immigrants doing much more poorly than they used to. Immigrants are coming here in expectation of making lives for themselves and all too many are winding up as janitors and taxi drivers with little or no prospect of anything more due to lack of language and job skills. As for my worry about being culturally swamped by immigrants, I hardly think that is only in my mind when the majority population of Toronto is now foreign born, and Vancouver is not far behind.

[Argus]

Immigration is very important to this country because they're contributions to this country, and the youth that they bring (in real demographic terms), is going to fund your CPP when you get old.

If that were the case we ought to be encouraging younger immigrants and discouraging older immigrants. We're not. The result of which is that the average age of the immigrant community is really not much different than the average age of those born here in Canada.

Furthermore if we're doing this on an economic basis I would suggest to you that we'd be better off bringing in people who are going to be paying taxes rather than consuming them. Immigrants without the requisite language and job skills to succeed in our job environment are not going to be providing much help in paying our pensions.

[Michael Hardner]

The problem you see as only in my mind is being manifested in statistics which show immigrants doing much more poorly than they used to. Immigrants are coming here in expectation of making lives for themselves and all too many are winding up as janitors and taxi drivers with little or no prospect of anything more due to lack of language and job skills.

You can hardly blame Muslims for the lack of opportunities available to them. And how is this different for Africans, Phillipinos, etc. ?

As for my worry about being culturally swamped by immigrants, I hardly think that is only in my mind when the majority population of Toronto is now foreign born, and Vancouver is not far behind.

But "swamped" is a loaded word. Your statement about Toronto is accurate, though.

Freedom? Has freedom inspired the Mennonites, Amish or Hutterites to renounce their old ways. What makes you think it will change the Muslims?

There will always be fundamentalists, but there's no reason to believe that Muslims won't adapt with time as other groups have.

[Argus]

The problem you see as only in my mind is being manifested in statistics which show immigrants doing much more poorly than they used to. Immigrants are coming here in expectation of making lives for themselves and all too many are winding up as janitors and taxi drivers with little or no prospect of anything more due to lack of language and job skills.

You can hardly blame Muslims for the lack of opportunities available to them. And how is this different for Africans, Phillipinos, etc. ?

I think we're getting confused on what is one aspect of my problem with immigration. My discomfort level with Muslims is merely one aspect. I have other problems with immigration, including the growing failure of non-skilled immigrants to succeed in Canada.

As for my worry about being culturally swamped by immigrants, I hardly think that is only in my mind when the majority population of Toronto is now foreign born, and Vancouver is not far behind.

But "swamped" is a loaded word. Your statement about Toronto is accurate, though.

Well you know, they call it the Asian Invasion..... but seriously, have you looked at a public school class lately in Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver? When I saw a public school class on TV the other night from Vancouver I'd say about 17 of the 20 odd kids there were Asians.

There will always be fundamentalists, but there's no reason to believe that Muslims won't adapt with time as other groups have.

Except that the experience of other countries, ie the Scandanavians, seems to be showing that they aren't adapting at all.

[August1991]

Except that the experience of other countries, ie the Scandanavians, seems to be showing that they aren't adapting at all.

Scandinavia is not a good point of comparison for English-Canada . America is.

There are more immigrants to the US than Canada. The US is more ethnically diverse than Canada.

Consider what happens to Muslims in the US:

Arabs in Dearborn

[Michael Hardner]

I think we're getting confused on what is one aspect of my problem with immigration. My discomfort level with Muslims is merely one aspect. I have other problems with immigration, including the growing failure of non-skilled immigrants to succeed in Canada.

Is the growing failure you refer to due to their low income levels ? I heard such a report recently and it's not that surprising considering the jobs that they're getting in Toronto.

When I saw a public school class on TV the other night from Vancouver I'd say about 17 of the 20 odd kids there were Asians.

Ok.

Except that the experience of other countries, ie the Scandanavians, seems to be showing that they aren't adapting at all.

I think you need to give some time for adaptation to happen. A generation might be reasonable.

[Argus]

Except that the experience of other countries, ie the Scandanavians, seems to be showing that they aren't adapting at all.

Scandinavia is not a good point of comparison for English-Canada . America is.

Why? In some ways Scandinavia is a better example, because, like us, they adopted the "multiculturalism, many-communities" approach rather than the American melting pot. Immigrants were encouraged to take pride in their ethnic backgrounds, and the greater community bent over backward to accomodate them.

There are more immigrants to the US than Canada.  The US is more ethnically diverse than Canada.

I don't believe any of that's true. The US lets in more immigrants than Canada, but only half as many as a percentage of their population, and they are expected to blend into the melting pot. The US has a growing population of Hispanics, many if not most of whom arrived illegally, but they aren't nearly as high a proportion of their population as the French are of Canada's. I believe our aboriginal population is also a much higher percentage of our total than is the case in the US either.

Dearborn is a tiny city, comparatively. Consider the number of Asians in Vancouver, or the number of foreign born in Toronto.

[takeanumber]

But "swamped" is a loaded word. Your statement about Toronto is accurate, though

"Swamped" implies that it's a problem.

Now seriously, it's very interesting to me how my white relatives seem to have this opinion that since they came to this country 'second' (after the amerindians), that they somehow have more rights than people who came here 'third' or 'fourth' or 'fifth'.

Then they turn around and bitch about how the people who got here 'first' get so much 'special treatment'. (I suppose they think their ancestors 'didn't mean it' when they signed those treaties, right?)

Immigration is NOT a problem.

They bring to Canada a much higher birthrate than white people.

Want more white people?

Breed.

Otherwise, I'm not going to pay 85% of my wage in 25 years just to support Baby-Boomer SOB's who are against immigration. (Seriously, there'll be a tax revolt)

----------------------

About assimilation:

My ancestors came to this country originally to get away from feudalism in France. They valued social mobility. They worked hard. But they were never assimilated.

I don't understand why there's this anglo-white-Canadian tendency in those over 30 (and ignorant under 30's) to say that immigrants need to be assimilated, specifically muslims.

With the exception of the French, Muslims are the second hardest group to assimiliate.

Now, if Muslims did not value social mobility and hard work, they, and any immigrant group for that matter, should not be allowed into Canada. The invitation is also predicated on leaving your hatreds behind. You leave the hatred at the door. Because if you're Tutsi, you might have to live next to a Hutu. If you're hindu, your neighbor might be a muslim. If you're Armenian, there's probably a Turk who denies th holocaust somewhere around.

And they're not to fight in this country. Nobody is to fight.

If they're unhappy with how Canada is, they should go back. (Many French people went back in the 1600's because they couldn't "hack it" in the new world. Same thing applies to them.)

If they can't "hack" doing jobs that they're skills match for, then TS. Every other generation of Canadians had to it.

[Argus]

I have other problems with immigration, including the growing failure of non-skilled immigrants to succeed in Canada.

Is the growing failure you refer to due to their low income levels ? I heard such a report recently and it's not that surprising considering the jobs that they're getting in Toronto.

It appears to be due to the growing complexity of work in Canada, especially the requirement for familiarity with computers and technology. People coming here from third world countries now must not only learn the language but also gain a comfort level with technology (not easy with poor language skills). You can't even work as a store clerk in a mall without decent language skills and a ability to work the computerized cash. Yet most immigrants have neither the language nor the technology skills.

Except that the experience of other countries, ie the Scandanavians, seems to be showing that they aren't adapting at all.

I think you need to give some time for adaptation to happen. A generation might be reasonable.

Denmark and other European countries started importing "guest workers" in the early sixties. And as I said before, they seem uninterested in blending in. In fact, as a group Muslims, and Turks in particular, resist assimilation. And the vast majority of Turkish men still go back to Turkey for their brides even into the 3rd generation.

[Argus]

But "swamped" is a loaded word. Your statement about Toronto is accurate, though

"Swamped" implies that it's a problem.

If you care about the welfare of this country it is.

Now seriously, it's very interesting to me how my white relatives seem to have this opinion that since they came to this country 'second' (after the amerindians), that they somehow have more rights than people who came here 'third' or 'fourth' or 'fifth'.

I've never heard anyone expressing this opinion. However, I do think people who are born and grow up here have more right to our help, particularly economic, than people who stepped off the boat last week. The entire justification for accepting immigrants is economic. In those terms, if an immigrant comes here and becomes a drain on the community then we ought to ship them back where they came from.

Otherwise, I'm not going to pay 85% of my wage in 25 years just to support Baby-Boomer SOB's who are against immigration.  (Seriously, there'll be a tax revolt)

If you're bringing over immigrants to pay your pension then you'd better make sure they're not going to be collecting theirs at the same time, and that they're not going to be sitting at home collecting welfare either, or barely making enough to get by - which means no big tax collections for the treasury. Current immigrants are doing worse and worse. Gone are the days you can take some farm boy without any language skills and plunk him down in Canada and hope he'll be successful. You need people with language skills so they can hone the technological skills they also need (and currently don't have).

I don't understand why there's this anglo-white-Canadian tendency in those over 30 (and ignorant under 30's) to say that immigrants need to be assimilated, specifically muslims.

Perhaps our experience with the divisiveness of two cultures makes us weary of creating a nation of four or five major cultures. Perhaps we're not much interested in living under Sharia law. Maybe we think a country without common languages and cultural values is a country divided and doomed to fall apart.

If they can't "hack" doing jobs that they're skills match for, then TS.  Every other generation of Canadians had to it.

Not exactly, early immigrants got little or no help once here, and were expected to provide for themselves. There was no medicare, no pogey, no pensions. As you say, early immigrants who failed went home. Now they go on welfare, and still lead better lives than they had at home.

[August1991]

The US lets in more immigrants than Canada, but only half as many as a percentage of their population, and they are expected to blend into the melting pot.

We don't retain our immigrants. Our gross number is large but our net numbers are much smaller. (Indeed, many move to the US and so our immigration system amounts to a US immigration system.)

"expected to blend"? I thought you were talking about extreme Muslims who want to impose Sharia law. According to you, these people have no desire to blend into anything anywhere.

Should the US be worried too?

[Michael Hardner]

If you care about the welfare of this country it is.

You're implying that people who don't share your views don't care enough about the welfare of the country.

If you're bringing over immigrants to pay your pension then you'd better make sure they're not going to be collecting theirs at the same time, and that they're not going to be sitting at home collecting welfare either, or barely making enough to get by - which means no big tax collections for the treasury. Current immigrants are doing worse and worse.

But there are many minimum-wage jobs there for them. What does that mean ?

Does a low-wage earner pay enough in taxes to earn their keep in Canada or not ?

Does the government want to keep wages low for businesses that hire minimum wage earners ?

Should the minimum wage be raised ?

[takeanumber]

QUOTE 

QUOTE 

But "swamped" is a loaded word. Your statement about Toronto is accurate, though

"Swamped" implies that it's a problem.

If you care about the welfare of this country it is.

I have more grounds to attack YOUR patriotism than YOU have to attack me.

I won't respond in kind to this.

QUOTE 

Now seriously, it's very interesting to me how my white relatives seem to have this opinion that since they came to this country 'second' (after the amerindians), that they somehow have more rights than people who came here 'third' or 'fourth' or 'fifth'.

I've never heard anyone expressing this opinion. However, I do think people who are born and grow up here have more right to our help, particularly economic, than people who stepped off the boat last week. The entire justification for accepting immigrants is economic. In those terms, if an immigrant comes here and becomes a drain on the community then we ought to ship them back where they came from.

Nope.

Half the justification for accepting immigrants is economic.

The second half is that Canada is a multi-cultural country that is made stronger by enhancing the mosaic.

I think some immigrants are drains on communities.

But if we're going to get into comparisons, I think the white trash I left behind in the Ghettos are even more of a drain on society than immigrants ever will be.

So what, we ought to ship them back to France and England?

Or are you saying that it's okay for white people to be drains on the community, but not for immigrants because 'they were here first'?

How about a better arguement?

Wherever immigrants migrate, the economy booms, because 90% of them are such hard workers. They KNOW and APPRECIATE the opportunities that Canada has to offer, and if we have to drop ten grand on them for them to get up there and work productively, than that's GREAT!

Perhaps our experience with the divisiveness of two cultures makes us weary of creating a nation of four or five major cultures. Perhaps we're not much interested in living under Sharia law. Maybe we think a country without common languages and cultural values is a country divided and doomed to fall apart.

Hmmmmmm. In Anglo-Canada, the lingua Franca is English. In Franco-Canada, it's French.

I've yet to encounter an immigrant who has been here longer than 5 years who does not speak either language.

Moreover, the second generation always knows either language.

And by the third generation, usually, they're pretty well intergrated into society.

It's just like any of our families when they came over.

So what's the problem?

10 grand spent on a new immigrant will return WAY MORE money in the long run than 10 grand dropped on White people in Saskatchewan or New Brunswick.

QUOTE

If they can't "hack" doing jobs that they're skills match for, then TS. Every other generation of Canadians had to it.

Not exactly, early immigrants got little or no help once here, and were expected to provide for themselves. There was no medicare, no pogey, no pensions. As you say, early immigrants who failed went home. Now they go on welfare, and still lead better lives than they had at home.

Sorry--early immigrants got TONS of help.

The community helped them build their hose. They fed them until they got up on their feet.

In fact, in the earliest of days, there was quite a bit of social welfare programs!

[August1991]

Argus, please stop making these blanket assertions without some evidence:

Current immigrants are doing worse and worse.

Proof?

Yet most immigrants have neither the language nor the technology skills.

Do you have any statistics to support this claim?

Now they go on welfare, and still lead better lives than they had at home.

What percentage of immigrants go on welfare?

In fact, as a group Muslims, and Turks in particular, resist assimilation. And the vast majority of Turkish men still go back to Turkey for their brides even into the 3rd generation.

You stated 90% in another post, refering to Danish Turks. This kind of hearsay is along the lines of "a friend of my sister-in law..."

A few decades back, the census figures on muslims were so low(about 5,000) that they weren't even included except as part of the "other" category. Now there are estimated to be about 1 million of them. That's a 20,000% percent increase in a few decades.

I'll do this for you.

There were some 580,000 Muslims in Canada in 2001 (or about 2% of the entire population).

Statistics Canada

When I saw a public school class on TV the other night from Vancouver I'd say about 17 of the 20 odd kids there were Asians.

Now I understand. You do your research by casually watching TV.

[Argus]

We don't retain our immigrants.  Our gross number is large but our net numbers are much smaller.  (Indeed, many move to the US and so our immigration system amounts to a US immigration system.)

Do you have a citation for that? That's the first I've heard it. Oh I know that a lot of immigrants want to move to the US, but want and ability are not the same things.

"expected to blend"?  I thought you were talking about extreme Muslims who want to impose Sharia law.  According to you, these people have no desire to blend into anything anywhere.

Should the US be worried too?

The US is worried, which is why the FBI spends so much time watching its Muslims now. But really, the US population is so much larger that they don't need to worry much about being swamped by Arabs. On the other hand, Hispanics are going to be the majority in California, Florida, Texas, New Mexico, and a few others within the next few decades. Their much higher birthrate combined with continued uncontrolled illegal immigration will soon be creating the kind of language difficulties Canadians are used to. The Hispanic population tripled in the decade between the 1990 and 2000 census, and were at 42% of the New Mexico population. They're probably at or near 50% now. New Mexico is becoming Old Mexico.