g_bambino Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Yes the Mafia murder, beat, maim, rape, cheat, thieve, bribe, corrupt, destroy, etc., while the thugs in Six Nations pee on lawns. Much more sophisticated indeed. You're confusing the acts themselves with the way in which they were carried out. The Mafia at least has the capability to operate covertly, thriving precisely because it is able to fly under the radar of authorities. In Caledonia, however, natives crudely set tire fires on highways, burn down hydro stations, beat, threat, cheat, thieve, and bribe, and celebrate it openly with brandished guns and silly "warrior" flags. Easy comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 You're confusing the acts themselves with the way in which they were carried out. The Mafia at least has the capability to operate covertly, thriving precisely because it is able to fly under the radar of authorities. In Caledonia, however, natives crudely set tire fires on highways, burn down hydro stations, beat, threat, cheat, thieve, and bribe, and celebrate it openly with brandished guns and silly "warrior" flags. Easy comparison. Maybe I've missed them but I've yet to see a report that actually says they've done these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Maybe I've missed them but I've yet to see a report that actually says they've done these things. TM, you've missed them! Such acts have been shown on video on the local tv station, CHCH-TV. Shortly after the protest had first begun the main electrical transformer was burned up, blacking out the entire region for 3-4 days. The native spokespeople denied any involvement and tried to blame it somehow on "townsfolk racist ninja vigilantes" who just wanted to make the protesters look bad. If that were true they must have been ninjas indeed, considering the transformer was behind the protesters own lines and very difficult if not impossible for a non-native to access. There is video footage of two TV cameramen being beaten and robbed of their equipment. Lots of shots of flagwaving and taunts being screamed. I don't know if the video is available on the TV station's website or somewhere else on the web but I and thousands of others have personally seen this stuff on the evening news. I will point out that I have never seen any guns brandished amongst the protesters on the TV news or in the papers. This appears to be an exaggeration. That being said, there is a lawsuit against the OPP and the provincial government from a couple who have been living trapped behind the protest lines. In his court testimony the man has made the claim that he saw what appeared to be crates being loaded by native protesters with Russian-style lettering on the sides. He had phoned the police and they had admitted that the description could have been of AK-47 cases. I haven't heard anymore of this in the media yet. If you're interested these reports have been in both the Hamilton Spectator and the National Post. Perhaps you might like to search their websites. It's also true that there is a lot of organized crime involved in Six Nations, Hells Angels style. Cigarettes, booze, grass, drugs and guns are big money around Six Nations and also at Akwesasne, another border reserve near Kingston. A decade or so ago it was the main smuggling point for illegal cigarettes by boats across the Lake. The native chief tried to take a stand against the smuggling and had a few machine gun clips emptied into his back yard for his trouble! Shills will point out that non-natives have organized crime too. So what? It's the ones involved in the native protests that are the issue here. Like all organized crime, although its existence may be common knowledge it is very hard to prove anything. It's also not a very good idea, considering the possible repercussions. "Lasagna", the native warrior from OKA, would be quite at home on Six Nations these days. Actually, it could BE his home, for all we know! I'm not surprised that you haven't seen much of this out in Manitoba. It's only recently that Caledonia seems to be getting much national media attention. Better late than never, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 TM, you've missed them! Such acts have been shown on video on the local tv station, CHCH-TV. Shortly after the protest had first begun the main electrical transformer was burned up, blacking out the entire region for 3-4 days. There is video footage of two TV cameramen being beaten and robbed of their equipment. Lots of shots of flagwaving and taunts being screamed. Yes, that is some of the confirmed proof of threats, intimidation, assault, and vandalism. Some of what hasn't been caught on tape may be hearsay, but given the amount of stories out there, it can't all be. I don't immediately believe everything Dave Brown has to say, and nor do I assume right away that he's entirely innocent; but, so far, Julian Fantino, the very man charged to uphold the Queen's peace, has admitted many of the allegations of what the squatters have done in Caledonia were not only true, but known to police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 McGinty sucks up to the fomer primier Harris who in turn sucks up to guys like Frank at Magna..who inturn sucks up to some old Nazis in Austria..don't expect much of anything real from McGinty..he has the beady eyes of an over worked Scientologist dwit. Never trust a man who smiles 24 7 - McGinty can not solve anything that concerns the buisness of neo-cons - and these guys the so-called conservatives are having problems with first nations elders - who have learned to play the white man gangster game. I personally belive that the Caladonian thing is prolonged because a few high rolling first nations guys must have some dirt on the white guys - It may be a game of black mail - we have taught the indian well.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddSox Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 I think the smart thing would have been to move. I mean, there are victims and then there are volunteers. Unless there was some form of ulterior motive, who in their right mind would subject themselves to the level of abuse that they claim has happened to them? Move? Are you offering to buy their house? Maybe you'll be willing to pay whatever the market value was before this all started - because right now the market value is probably about $1.00. Perhaps you'd like to take care of their mortgage for them - that would be considerate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 I don't know if the video is available on the TV station's website or somewhere else on the web but I and thousands of others have personally seen this stuff on the evening news. I will point out that I have never seen any guns brandished amongst the protesters on the TV news or in the papers. This appears to be an exaggeration. Haven't been able to find it. That being said, there is a lawsuit against the OPP and the provincial government from a couple who have been living trapped behind the protest lines. In his court testimony the man has made the claim that he saw what appeared to be crates being loaded by native protesters with Russian-style lettering on the sides. He had phoned the police and they had admitted that the description could have been of AK-47 cases. I haven't heard anymore of this in the media yet. If you're interested these reports have been in both the Hamilton Spectator and the National Post. Perhaps you might like to search their websites. How the fuck could they get AK's? It's also true that there is a lot of organized crime involved in Six Nations, Hells Angels style. Cigarettes, booze, grass, drugs and guns are big money around Six Nations and also at Akwesasne, another border reserve near Kingston. A decade or so ago it was the main smuggling point for illegal cigarettes by boats across the Lake. The native chief tried to take a stand against the smuggling and had a few machine gun clips emptied into his back yard for his trouble! I get the first four byt why the hell do they need guns? Shills will point out that non-natives have organized crime too. So what? It's the ones involved in the native protests that are the issue here. Like all organized crime, although its existence may be common knowledge it is very hard to prove anything. It's also not a very good idea, considering the possible repercussions. Ya true enough. "Lasagna", the native warrior from OKA, would be quite at home on Six Nations these days. Actually, it could BE his home, for all we know! No idea who that is. I'm not surprised that you haven't seen much of this out in Manitoba. It's only recently that Caledonia seems to be getting much national media attention. Better late than never, I guess. I'm from B.C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 I respect lawful, hard-working people. There aren't many aborigines who fall into that category, at least, not on the reserves. And even fewer among the so-called Six Nations, Six Nations is the largest and wealthiest reserve in Canada. It is also a reserve that is likely going to be stronger in economic foundation then the cities nearby within the next 20years. People from Six Nations are desired by Iron Workers and virtually all contruction companies. There is enormous wealth on Six Nations as well as 3rd world like conditions, but nothing like on other reserves in Canada. Some of the best tradesman are from Six Nations, and many times the coworkers may not know that there teammate is native. There are companies who literally focus on recruiting the skilled trademan and general construction labourers from Six Nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 Six Nations is the largest and wealthiest reserve in Canada. It is also a reserve that is likely going to be stronger in economic foundation then the cities nearby within the next 20years. People from Six Nations are desired by Iron Workers and virtually all contruction companies. There is enormous wealth on Six Nations as well as 3rd world like conditions, but nothing like on other reserves in Canada. Some of the best tradesman are from Six Nations, and many times the coworkers may not know that there teammate is native. There are companies who literally focus on recruiting the skilled trademan and general construction labourers from Six Nations. I certainly hope, then, that these individuals are outraged at the repugnant displays by the mob of Six Nations "warriors" in Caledonia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 I certainly hope, then, that these individuals are outraged at the repugnant displays by the mob of Six Nations "warriors" in Caledonia. Nobody really cares all too much. Some media hype, some idiots trying to stir the pot, but usually its that jackass from richmond hill and people have tuned him out. people buy their smokes, go to the races, lots of tourism in the area, Racers come from all over the US to the Six Nations Reserve. Lots of business and trade delegations cue up to talk to various groups and if they do their due diligence and consult, it can turn into a very prosperous endeavour. But like going to any other government, you have to accept that "NO" can be the answer. Mind You, the Federal government is on the reserve like a dirty shirt getting all the taxable revenues. Sorry, but when moneys involved, these recruiters and business people couldn't care less about things outside of their immediate goals. That is someone elses problem. Others are trying to manipulate the system to get out of a bad investment and want a protest on their land in hopes of a government bailout. Sad but true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 Haven't been able to find it. How the fuck could they get AK's? I get the first four byt why the hell do they need guns? Ya true enough. No idea who that is. I'm from B.C. Sorry! Somehow I had thought you were in Manitoba. Doesn't change my point, though. As for how they could get AK-47's, we don't know yet what was actually in the crates. AK-47's was the OPP's guess. Still, getting them is not at all unbelievable, given the amounts of money involved and the ready access to the American border. Why would they need guns? Why did they need them in OKA, Quebec in that protest a decade ago. Lasagna was a Native Warrior involved in that protest. There is a famous photo from that time where he stood face to face with a Canadian soldier, in full cammo with a bandana mask. Should be an easy google. No one seems to talk about it these days but during the start of the Caledonia protest there was much talk about how it actually was not a local initiative at all. Apparently there were a number of young native rights militants from down south in America who had decided to come up and make Caledonia an example. There were a number of American law enforcement people up here as observers, with long dossiers on many of the individuals involved with the protest. Nobody knows what percentage of the residents of Six Nations actively support the protest. Not sure how you could take an accurate poll. Certainly, if it wasn't absolutely secret someone would have to be crazy to vote against the protest, for fear of reprisals. The saddest thing about Caledonia is that this militancy is a very new thing. For generations natives and townsfolk have been great neighbours, with much interaction, including intermarriage. While support for native rights has always been strong the support from the townspeople has taken a major hit because of the TACTICS of the protesters! Their actions have negatively impacted the townsfolk first and the politicians a distant second. This sort of thing can take generations to heal. Meanwhile, the 'foreign' instigators will have moved on, leaving the actual residents of Six Nations to cope with the problems. It was the townsfolk who lost their electricity for 3-4 days. It was the townsfolk who put up with road barricades for months. It was the townsfolk who sometimes endured vandalism and intimidation. Meanwhile, to date I have not heard a single media report of any native protesters blocking a road leading to the provincial premier's house, or driving ATV's through his backyard all night. What I find most illogical is the arguments put forth by the protesters' shills about how the townsfolk are not their enemy! It seems to boil down to the following: "Sorry we punched you in the face but hey, don't blame us! Your governments MADE us punch you! You should be out there protesting WITH us!" I'd laugh if it weren't so tragic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) Sorry! Somehow I had thought you were in Manitoba. Doesn't change my point, though. As for how they could get AK-47's, we don't know yet what was actually in the crates. AK-47's was the OPP's guess. Still, getting them is not at all unbelievable, given the amounts of money involved and the ready access to the American border. Most Metis live in Manitoba so it's understandable. Why would they need guns? Why did they need them in OKA, Quebec in that protest a decade ago. Lasagna was a Native Warrior involved in that protest. There is a famous photo from that time where he stood face to face with a Canadian soldier, in full cammo with a bandana mask. Should be an easy google. Well I hope it doesn't get as bad as OKA. I didn't realize it was that guy, ya I know who it is. No one seems to talk about it these days but during the start of the Caledonia protest there was much talk about how it actually was not a local initiative at all. Apparently there were a number of young native rights militants from down south in America who had decided to come up and make Caledonia an example. There were a number of American law enforcement people up here as observers, with long dossiers on many of the individuals involved with the protest. Nobody knows what percentage of the residents of Six Nations actively support the protest. Not sure how you could take an accurate poll. Certainly, if it wasn't absolutely secret someone would have to be crazy to vote against the protest, for fear of reprisals. Weird. The saddest thing about Caledonia is that this militancy is a very new thing. For generations natives and townsfolk have been great neighbours, with much interaction, including intermarriage. While support for native rights has always been strong the support from the townspeople has taken a major hit because of the TACTICS of the protesters! Their actions have negatively impacted the townsfolk first and the politicians a distant second. This sort of thing can take generations to heal. Meanwhile, the 'foreign' instigators will have moved on, leaving the actual residents of Six Nations to cope with the problems. There are idiots on both sides that's the problem. It was the townsfolk who lost their electricity for 3-4 days. It was the townsfolk who put up with road barricades for months. It was the townsfolk who sometimes endured vandalism and intimidation. Meanwhile, to date I have not heard a single media report of any native protesters blocking a road leading to the provincial premier's house, or driving ATV's through his backyard all night. I'd kind of like to see that though. What I find most illogical is the arguments put forth by the protesters' shills about how the townsfolk are not their enemy! It seems to boil down to the following: "Sorry we punched you in the face but hey, don't blame us! Your governments MADE us punch you! You should be out there protesting WITH us!" Have any of the actual protesters said anyhing like that? Edited November 22, 2009 by TrueMetis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 Nobody really cares all too much. Some media hype, some idiots trying to stir the pot, No doubt. But the Six Nations "warriors" who've vandalised, threatened, and intimidated Caledonia were getting the media attention they demanded and thus became a public face for Six Nations. All those other industrious, law abiding Six Nations you mentioned should be, I hope, enraged that their reservation's otherwise good reputation has been sullied by these thugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 I'd kind of like to see that though. Have any of the actual protesters said anyhing like that? Yeah, I'd love to see it too! I've always believed in going after specific individuals rather than labeling people as groups. Yes, I've seen direct quotes from protesters saying such positions. Unfortunately, I tried to do a google for you and so far the sheer volume of material is such that I haven't been able to come up with a specific link for you. I'll try again when I get more time. If you're interested, perhaps the best source would be the local newspaper. Go here: http://www.thespec.com When you get there you can do a 'quick search' for "Caledonia protest". There's pages and pages of articles. The dates of the articles will give you a good sense of how things developed. The whole affair sometimes reeks to me of some adolescent protest, as if some university students with more energy than wisdom used Caledonia for their own agenda. In their zeal they have perhaps caused more damage than good. The issue of native land claims in the area has been overshadowed by distaste for their protest tactics, while the relationship between the townsfolk and Six Nations has been severely damaged. The "shills" deny this, of course. They always can dig up one or two far left non-natives to trot out and pretend that they represent a majority. Hopefully sanity will return to this area some day soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 Looking through some of the articles I can't help but notice all the stupid things both sides did. Did anyone on either side ever just stop and think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 Looking through some of the articles I can't help but notice all the stupid things both sides did. Did anyone on either side ever just stop and think? Doesn't seem so! Of course, things happened very quickly and the initial reaction to somebody blocking your town, cutting off your power and screaming in your face is to get angry and lash back. The OPP made the initial bonehead botched raid to try to move the protesters out. They went in with grossly insufficient manpower and were chased out. Afterwards, the politicos got involved. Here in Ontario one of the ways our present premier achieved power had been by the criticism of the former premier, Mike Harris, for the way he had handled a native protest at Ipperwash, ON. Tragically, a native had been shot and killed by the OPP. The Liberal Opposition had seized this and by the time they were finished they had made it sound like Mike Harris had actually fired the gun himself! Now they had a similar problem so at all costs they did not want the OPP to escalate the situation. It would appear they made the decision to have a two-level policing policy. They were afraid the native protesters were armed and certainly they had shown they were willing to be violent. The townsfolk of course were mostly typical Canadians and could safely be pushed around. You know the old joke about how you get 50 Canadians out of your swimming pool? You simply ask "Canadians, would you be good enough to get out of my pool?" Caledonia had always depended heavily on tourism. That's taken a huge hit, of course. Property values have plummeted, so people can't get their equity out if they want to leave. If you're still interested in silly protester quotes, you might google for "Janie Jamieson". I seem to remember some reporters asking her about how natives had extended their protest line to the other side of a bridge and watching her deny it had happened. When she was told that there was video tape she promptly stated that the tape must have been doctored and it was all an imaginary ruse to make natives look bad! Some of the hyperbole from this lady was just mind-boggling. You got the impression that in her world all natives were always right and never wrong, that evil could ONLY be done by non-natives! McGuinty's problem is that the Caledonia issue has not gone away. Obviously he was hoping that someone like the feds would have gotten him off the hook. It never happened and things continue to fester. Now he has a lawsuit over his policing policies that is receiving national attention. I'm not aware of any protest in our history that has hurt so large a town for so long. As I said, the problem is protest TACTICS! People hardly even care about the land claims anymore. Worse yet, McGuinty has sent the message that those tactics WORK! It's only logical for other protesters to use similar means in other situations. Why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) Doesn't seem so! Of course, things happened very quickly and the initial reaction to somebody blocking your town, cutting off your power and screaming in your face is to get angry and lash back. Correct The OPP made the initial bonehead botched raid to try to move the protesters out. They went in with grossly insufficient manpower and were chased out. There is a video out there you have to see it. I am waiting for it to be released publicly unedited. When it does, I will link it as quickly as possible to this thread. You won't be using the term insufficient manpower after seeing it. Its a very one sided affair. A far cry from the episode of nearly 20 years back at oka.Now they had a similar problem so at all costs they did not want the OPP to escalate the situation. It would appear they made the decision to have a two-level policing policy. They were afraid the native protesters were armed and certainly they had shown they were willing to be violent. Definitely not afraid. What use of force demonstrates is that while the OPP can easily sweep up and arrest individuals or chase them off and issue warrants for their arrest, it can also lead to an escalation. However, you are correct in that the OPP are not interested in escalating the situation. That makes them professionals. I have watch the police do amazing work in keeping a situation under control. Escalating a situation means that control becomes lost. The OPP maintain control, whether you agree with the policy, the OPP are the ones in control of the situation. Two tier policing exists, however if you go down that path, it doesn't take long for the stats to prove that the two tier justice exists and that those on the bottom tier are from SN. Any court reports bear that information, and thus the "two tier" analogy has been dropped by all but the most ill informed people. People often feel letdown by our court system. It leads to events where individuals take things into their own hands. That is how a Caledonia and DCE failure is created.The townsfolk of course were mostly typical Canadians and could safely be pushed around. You know the old joke about how you get 50 Canadians out of your swimming pool? You simply ask "Canadians, would you be good enough to get out of my pool?" Local people in Caledonia were getting ticked off at the number of newcomers into a community that had seen little change in 50 years. Who set off the time bomb? Who decided to develop on contested land, knowing full well that if this piece of property was developed that SN would be enforcing land claims all along the haldimand tract. That this piece was considered to close to home, too contentious. Why was Henco given a secure commitment to go forward and a guarrantee from the government that compensation would be available if the development was halted. There are some other claims along the Grand. Some well documented ones. Perhaps the stupidest thing happened at an Alderman meeting with the developers presentation. Question: Did you know that this parcel of land is recognised by the federal government as a legal land claim by SN? Answer: Yes Question: Did you know that you are required by Federal Law to consult with SN about developing this property? Answer: Yes Question: Have you contacted SN about this development and will you prior to developing? Answer: No The room of 300 people in attendance went silent. The locals railed at their own politicians saying, what the heck is going on? If this is known by the developers and neither them nor you are doing what is required by law then of course the shit is going to hit the fan. See, other towns and townsfolk along the Grand River don't want to have a Caledonia in their backyard. Your right though, the townsfolk are often pushovers until they get the facts or are backed into a corner. In Caledonia, the townsfolk are in the corner and they are alone. Quite Frankly, those on SN who are involved in these LandClaim disputes are backed into a corner. What is the common link? The government failure to do its job. The Federal Government isn't worried the slightest about Caledonia. The Province isn't concerned either. Seriously... where is Diane Finley and what have you ever heard from her? Where the heck is the Indian Affairs minister after 4 years? Anyone know his name? Anyone in Caledonia see him? Caledonia had always depended heavily on tourism. That's taken a huge hit, of course. Property values have plummeted, so people can't get their equity out if they want to leave. Actually property values in Caledonia are as stable as the rest of the Ontario, and more stable then Hamilton property values. Tourism wasn't affected by anything, infact gawkers were happy to go to Caledonia. Tourism is as strong this year in Caledonia as anywhere else, with the weather playing a larger role. Tourism will be more hampered by passports. You got the impression that in her world all natives were always right and never wrong, that evil could ONLY be done by non-natives! Its called propoganda and there is plenty to go around. McGuinty's problem is that the Caledonia issue has not gone away. Obviously he was hoping that someone like the feds would have gotten him off the hook. It never happened and things continue to fester. Now he has a lawsuit over his policing policies that is receiving national attention. That's good. SN land claims are the most neglected land claims in Canada and its the largest reserve. How the heck can the Federal government be absent on the file of the largest reserve in Canada? McGuinty has failed the people of Caledonia. Diane Finley and the Federal Government has failed the people of Caledonia. If this is how we treat Canadians.... its not any better for SN. I'm not aware of any protest in our history that has hurt so large a town for so long. As I said, the problem is protest TACTICS! People hardly even care about the land claims anymore. The town isn't hurting, you can drive anywhere you please and do anything you like. There are plenty of protests and quite frankly, while heavily publicised, this is one many land claims along the grand. And you'd be a fool to believe that hardly anyone cares about land claims. Worse yet, McGuinty has sent the message that those tactics WORK! It's only logical for other protesters to use similar means in other situations. Why not? If you think their tactics work, then they are working. I have yet to see anything work. The people of Caledonia were shit on. The people of SN continue to be shit on. There is no dialogue from the Federal Government. Any action by the federal government is designed to stall, come back in 3 months, have lunch leave, come back in three months, and nothing is accomplished. As Barbara McDougal or Jane Stewart what they did, short of eat, collect $1300/day. Why would the Provincial government buy the DCE? During the period of the DCE land dispute the Provincial government SOLD land in their title, that was under claim by SN, to a major land developer. This claim had been in the courts for 12 years, and when SN wrote a letter requesting... why have you sold this land while we are in legal proceedings to determine ownership, the answer was.... To paraphrase: "We cannot answer your question as to why this land was sold as SN is currently in litigation with the Province over this land. Then the legal SN document was accompanied with the Original date attached, something back in 1995 IIRC. " The government is great for answers like this. Edited November 22, 2009 by madmax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 Doesn't seem so! Of course, things happened very quickly and the initial reaction to the OPP beating your women,children and old people, cutting you off by overpowering the weakest and screaming in your face is to get angry and lash back. I fixed it for you..... You minimize that the OPP actually caused this. The occupation was both legal and democratic, since after 2 years of SN issuing objections to the development and demands for consultation, the developer went ahead anyway. BUT, had the OPP not attempted to raid the site and enforce an illegal injunction, the escalation would never had happened. While it is understandable that some Caledonians were inconvenienced by the blockades, no one was harmed by them in the beginning. And had the Caledonians not injected themselves into the disagree (with tremendous ignorance to add), they would not have had protesters screaming in their face, like they were doing to the protesters. Caledonians are not blameless in all of this and there is no doubt in my mind that like Dave Brown, they brought much of their complaints onto themselves. At the end of the day, Haldimand County and Brantford still have to consult and accommodate Six Nations before any further development takes place on the Haldimand Tract. So the injunctions, the OPP raid, the retaliation, the racism and hatred shown by Caledonia and Brantford residents, the court cases, the lawsuit etc. changes nothing. We are still where we were in 1995 when the claim was first made. What are YOU going to do about THAT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) BUT, had the OPP not attempted to raid the site and enforce an illegal injunction, the escalation would never had happened. The OPP have NO WAY of knowing whether or not an injunction is illegal. The injunction was issued, and they are obligated to enforce the court order. It is the failure of the injunction because of the criteria you mention that has changed the enforcement doctrine of the OPP at Caledonia only. However, the public would like to blame the OPP for following the law. The OPP continues to do so, and under at times extremely difficult situations have kept the peace. Anyone going through Caledonia would have no idea there is anything amiss. Heck, plenty travel from Hamilton through the city and get their smokes at the bend. LOL. There are other injunctions against SN along the grand river. These injunctions are unlikely to pass the acid test as they are challenged in court. Until the injunction is defeated, the police of various jurisdictions be it OPP or City, enforce the standing injunction. This continues to this day. The injunction failed in Caledonia, because the rule of law prevailed. The Courts involved in the Caledonia injunction should have forced the Federal Government and the Provincial government into talks with SN. All development on the contested land of the DCE and other sites should be stopped and all protestors should be offsite while talks are proceeding. However, since there are no talks, and since there is continued development without consultation and since the Federal Government is AWOL. Expect more injunctions to fail in appeal and expect more protests not less, until the government gets down to resolving the issue in black and white. If you want to have some fun. Ask a politician, like Diane Finley, who's land it is, and she won't comment. Edited November 23, 2009 by madmax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 The OPP have NO WAY of knowing whether or not an injunction is illegal. The injunction was issued, and they are obligated to enforce the court order. It is the failure of the injunction because of the criteria you mention that has changed the enforcement doctrine of the OPP at Caledonia only. However, the public would like to blame the OPP for following the law. The OPP continues to do so, and under at times extremely difficult situations have kept the peace. Anyone going through Caledonia would have no idea there is anything amiss. Heck, plenty travel from Hamilton through the city and get their smokes at the bend. LOL. There are other injunctions against SN along the grand river. These injunctions are unlikely to pass the acid test as they are challenged in court. Until the injunction is defeated, the police of various jurisdictions be it OPP or City, enforce the standing injunction. This continues to this day. The injunction failed in Caledonia, because the rule of law prevailed. The Courts involved in the Caledonia injunction should have forced the Federal Government and the Provincial government into talks with SN. All development on the contested land of the DCE and other sites should be stopped and all protestors should be offsite while talks are proceeding. However, since there are no talks, and since there is continued development without consultation and since the Federal Government is AWOL. Expect more injunctions to fail in appeal and expect more protests not less, until the government gets down to resolving the issue in black and white. If you want to have some fun. Ask a politician, like Diane Finley, who's land it is, and she won't comment. All well and good, Max, but as I said, the quarrel is not about the land claims. It's about the TACTICS of the SN protesters! I can tell you that it's human nature to resent who hits you and not "the guy that made me hit you!". If you lived there and your power was gone, your roads blockaded by angry, flag waving protesters and all the rest of it, would you just say to yourself "Oh dear! I guess it's perfectly understandable that they are doing this to me personally, since the politicians have hurt them!" The very concept is ridiculous. Targeting innocents in pursuit of political goals is simple terrorism, by definition. Frankly, for native protests to harm townsfolk is racist. The townsfolk for the most part have little or no control over what governments have done to natives. But then again, to me, the concept of tribalism smells of racism. As I've often said, I put blame on individuals, not on groups or races. If someone hurts me, I want to repay that specific person in kind. I really don't care if he has some sort of political agenda as an excuse. That's why I say that I would have more respect for the SN protesters if they targeted the governments and the politicians. Why not drive ATV's through Diane Finley's backyard all night? Why not blockade the street where McGuinty and his family lives? I don't see much difference between the TACTICS of the SN protesters and Hamas terrorists launching random rocket attacks that fall into Israeli residential areas, except for the degree of harm. The moral principles to me seem quite similar. Meanwhile, I just can't believe you when you claim that Caledonia property values have held up. I have family in the real estate business. Perhaps they can confirm or deny your claim. As always, money talks and BS walks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) The OPP have NO WAY of knowing whether or not an injunction is illegal. The injunction was issued, and they are obligated to enforce the court order. You obviously don't know much about policing. Once an injunction is laid, it becomes a policing matter. Neither the courts or government can direct the police, or require them to "enforce" an injunction. Injunctive relief is a civil matter, not criminal, so the use of force is not an option in the majority of cases. While this comes later in courts, the jurisprudence certainly applies anyway. Had Judge David Marshall properly studied the law (as he was required to do) his injunction would never have been issued. Frontenac Venture v. Ardock Algonquin First Nation The court went on to explain how these interests are to be effectively balanced. The court stated that the clear answer could be found in the last 20 years of jurisprudence of the Supreme Court of Canada and in particular the requirement for consultation, negotiation, accommodation and ultimately reconciliation of aboriginal rights and other important, but at times conflicting, interests. The court cited the long line of Supreme Court jurisprudence beginning with R. v. Sparrow, including Haida Nations v. British Columbia (Minister of Forest), Taku River Tlingit First Nation v. British Columbia (Project Assessment Director), and Mikisew Cree First Nation v. Canada (Minister of Heritage). The court found that this clear line of jurisprudence required that where constitutionally protected aboriginal rights are asserted, “injunctions sought by private parties to protect their interests should only be granted where every effort has been made by the court to encourage consultation, negotiation, accommodation and reconciliation among the competing rights and interests”. The Court of Appeal cautioned in particular that if the injunction is intended to create a “protest free zone” for contentious private activity that impacts upon an asserted aboriginal right, the court must be extremely careful to ensure that the duty to consult with the First Nation has been fully and faithfully discharged and that every effort had been exhausted to obtain a negotiated or legislated solution. Since Ipperwash, the OPP have known about the need not to act quickly on injunction, and to find different ways of resolving the issue. Clearly this was an issue between the government and Six Nations, and the use of injunction was clearly contentious. It was completely under their control, and the mass beatings they inflicted merely indicated that the OPP had not heeded Ipperwash's recommendations, but still struggled internally with racism, and out of control officers. As to WB's assertions that the occupation of DCE was terrorism, his feeble opinions are bunk. There was no actions that deliberately targeted Caledonians or others either during the initial occupations, or after the barricades went up. Instead Caledonians - racists and their dummies - specifically targeted Six Nations people in town, and on the streets. As well, the Friday night frenzies were organized by Caledonians close to the site - including Dave Brown and Dana Chatwell - and they were deliberate in trying to pick a fight with Six Nation protesters on the site. While I haven't heard the latest in real estate I do know that August-September last year houses in Caledonia were getting within 5% of their asking price, which is typical for any moderate markets. The fear of failing markets is just another frenzy item that ignorants and mischief makers use to excite people. It is a non issue. BTW Bill, Caledonians are not "innocents" They injected themselves into the issue surrounding the lands claims, and DCE had nothing to do with any of them. Edited November 23, 2009 by charter.rights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 Goggled up this article on the Brown property: http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/676881 "The couple paid $225,000, less than market value, and put another $30,000 into renovations in the basement for Dana's hairdressing business." "The property is currently appraised at $50,000 to $75,000." And this from 2006: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2006/06/14/to-caledonia.html "Since the dispute began, Lawyer John Findlay says property values in the community have plummeted as Caledonia earned a reputation for being unsafe. He says two major businesses have signed on to the lawsuit, and he expects the number to grow. The lawsuit is also open to homeowners. About 400 local businesses have been deemed eligible for emergency financial aid from the province, up to $500,000 in total." The online real estate ads seem vague. Not that many actual prices listed. This only makes sense. A salesman always wants to keep prices up, if he can. Again, I'm going to see if my family contacts can get the inside scoop, which is usually far more accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 Fear mongering - nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 This only makes sense. A salesman always wants to keep prices up, if he can. You're going to get nothing out of Charter Rights besides anti-non-native hyperbole. He's utterly blinded by his single minded agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 All well and good, Max, but as I said, the quarrel is not about the land claims. It's about the TACTICS of the SN protesters! All leave you with those words and following comments as I agree with the gist of your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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