McGuinty's Cowardice on Display

[Argus]

Moronic, ignorant drivel deleted.

Your legal bullshit has nothing to do with permitting aborigine thugs to beat people up or commit acts of arson, theft and attempted murder with impunity.

[Argus]

If you are referring to Dave Brown and Dana Chatwell who are suing the Ontario Government and the OPP, well then....neither of them is faultless.

There have been videos circulating showing Ms. Chatwell drunk yelling racial epithets at Six Nations people. Dave brown was reported to have instigated one Friday night with him and others driving golf balls towards Six Nations protesters; has been involved in numerous drunken mob nights, and; was key to trying to create a private militia with the intention of attacking unarmed and innocent Six Nation people as they entered Caledonia.

I wonder how any man's behaviour, however liberal his attitudes, would change after being subjected to constant racial epithets, intimidation, violence and threats of violence, break-ins etc, would feel about aborigines after several years of abuse?

As someone who was formerly extremely sympathetic to aborigines and their problems, acts like this, repeated over the years, have robbed me of almost any sympathy. I now feel that they deserve no sympathy, and that the government needs to show the heavy iron fist under the layer of velvet with which all governments normally treat citizens.

What has happened in the intervening years ranges from the overtly violent (natives tossing a car from an overpass, burning a wooden bridge) to the petty (a native man urinating on Mr. Brown's property, saying, “That's what I think of your land”) to the merely irritating (spotlights shone into the family's house at night, firecrackers aimed their way).

Yesterday, Mr. Brown added to that long list.

In one of the most vile incidents, just before Christmas in 2006, Mr. Brown, Ms. Chatwell and a friend arrived home about 1 a.m. to discover intruders had been in the house.

“Everything we owned was just demolished,” Mr. Brown said. The house had been vandalized, the walls strewn with unspeakable graffiti (among the mildest epithets, “Pigs,” “Racists,” and “White trash”), even Dax's beloved guitar destroyed.

Christie Blatchford

[madmax]

Well, he won't get your vote but he might get mine! So they cancel out. The real question is how many Ontario voters feel like Argus or like you!

Not many. Its a huge voter letdown. Nothing matches the hype. While the topic can be provocative and opinionated, its not a vote getter in the end.

Especially when you get past the Nimby effect.

[Argus]

However, to simply things, the occupation would not have been necessary at all had Haldimand County, the province or Henco executed their responsibilities for consultation since all of them had been on notice for more than 2 years prior to the occupation that the land was under claim by Six Nations and that it was their recommendation that no development should take place until the land claim had been properly dealt with.

The claim was spurious and dismissed as such. The aborigines were told to get lost, as was proper.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Argus

[Argus]

Have you even heard Harris' name mentioned since Stockwell Day made a run for the Alliance leadership ?

Harris does not speak French and apparently has no desire to learn it. No one without French has been seriously put forward for leadership of any of the federal political parties.

[charter.rights]

The claim was spurious and dismissed as such. The aborigines were told to get lost, as was proper.

Nope.

The claim is still valid and INAC still sees the issue as a dispute. While some have tried to claim the 1844 agreement was ratified, all the evidence - memos, letters and other correspondence - both before and after the purported signing, show that Six Nations did not agree, nor held the intent (which is legally required under the Royal Proclamation) to surrender the land. Instead Six Nations agree only to lease the plank road for 99 years.

While you may whine that the legal documentation doesn't fit your opinion, I would suggest that it is far more reliable in this discussion then all the poorly formed and biased opinions you might issue. Maybe whining has gotten you someplace in the past but here the citation I provided is gold.

[Argus]

Six Nations hasn't used violence.

Every post you make gives you less and less credibility on this issue.

Don't use violence? That's like saying armed robbery isn't violent - as long as the victim cooperates, of course. Sure, you'll block off a road. That's not violent!

Of course, if anyone tries to cross your road block you'll beat the shit out of him. But that doesn't count, right? That's just "an individual act".

I am critical of the OPP for using violence - taser, clubs and pepper spray - against women, old people and children w

I've always hated bullies. But I think it's a new low when a thug of a bully snivels and whines constantly about mistreatment.

Whaaa! Whaaa! All I was doing was shooting his dog, pushing his car over the bridge, trashing his house and beating up his kid, and he slapped me! Whaaaa! Whaaaaa! Someone call the UN! I'm being racially abused!"

[Argus]

Having followed this from the beginning, there is little doubt in my mind that Brown and Chatwell were trying to manipulate themselves into a buyout from the province. Much of their "evidence" and complaints appear to have been fabricated by them.

Having followed your comments from the beginning, there is little doubt that if Brown and Chatwell turned up murdered one day, stuck full of arrows, you'd be on here screaming in anger that they'd stolen the arrows from the aborigines then used them just to try to make you look bad.

It is an unreasonable position in my mind since the other 20 families in the same area neither had a fraction of the complaints or fears they had.

None of the others were behind enemy lines, like they were, subjected to curfews and passports and intimidation and searches by violent aborigine thugs in and around their house.

[Argus]

Nope.

The claim is still valid and INAC still sees the issue as a dispute. While some have tried to claim the 1844 agreement was ratified, all the evidence - memos, letters and other correspondence - both before and after the purported signing, show that Six Nations did not agree, nor held the intent (which is legally required under the Royal Proclamation) to surrender the land.

What you're saying is that the aborigine chiefs were too stupid and ignorant to know what they were doing, and so you feel that it's not fair for the aborigines to be bound by their signatures.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact no court in a hundred years has agreed with you is more than sufficient evidence, especially given the noted leniency with which they greet aborigine claims, and the way they bend over backwards to accept so-called "evidence", which mostly consists of "my great grandfather's uncle's friend Running Dog once said that he had a dream where that land was ours"

[charter.rights]

Every post you make gives ME less and less credibility on this issue.

There I corrected for you.

Don't use violence? That's like saying armed robbery isn't violent - as long as the victim cooperates, of course. Sure, you'll block off a road. That's not violent!

Of course, if anyone tries to cross your road block you'll beat the shit out of him. But that doesn't count, right? That's just "an individual act".

First of all I clarified my statement with the idea that generalizations are not helpful. If you want to use generalizations then lets agree that if we say Six Nations is violent because of a few hotheads then Canada is more violent because of lots more hotheads. You cannot separate one from the other just because a few people on both sides got out of hand a few times.

Public protest is not a violent action. Neither is blocking a road. Ask the Public Works Department....

As to your fantasy that someone would be attacked if they crossed the blockade, well it is way out there with your tin foil hat theories. The FACT is that about 25 non-native people did in fact cross the barricades at the height of the conflict, had coffees in hand, attended pot lunch suppers and spoke freely with all the protesters to get their point of view, without any incident whatsoever. Reasonable and sensible people were welcomed and the protesters were always peaceful when people came with a handshake. Although there was lots of conjecture more wild than yours about what would happen if someone approached the blockade, it never happened, because the OPP kept everyone separate....and most the time had to face the non-natives most of the time....

Does your tin foil hat come in green and red?

I've always hated bullies. But I think it's a new low when a thug of a bully snivels and whines constantly about mistreatment.

I agree! That is why the OPP were on a short leash.

Whaaa! Whaaa! All I was doing was shooting his dog, pushing his car over the bridge, trashing his house and beating up his kid, and he slapped me! Whaaaa! Whaaaaa! Someone call the UN! I'm being racially abused!"

Never happened. Sure Brown and Chatwell are trying to make a case, but based on my knowledge of what went on at the time, when the evidence from the OPP (including all the video surveillance of Brown and Chatwell) shows up in court, the real truth will come out. Brown has tried to milk the occupation from the start and this lawsuit is just one more in a long string of maneuvers they have made to effect that result.

Real news at 6.

Edited November 18, 2009 by charter.rights

[charter.rights]

What you're saying is that the aborigine chiefs were too stupid and ignorant to know what they were doing, and so you feel that it's not fair for the aborigines to be bound by their signatures.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact no court in a hundred years has agreed with you is more than sufficient evidence, especially given the noted leniency with which they greet aborigine claims, and the way they bend over backwards to accept so-called "evidence", which mostly consists of "my great grandfather's uncle's friend Running Dog once said that he had a dream where that land was ours"

Nope. Crooked Indian Agent. Go read a book and find out for yourself.

[Michael Hardner]

More properly, there's no evidence Harris has any interest.

Pfaff. I saw his name floated on for the Stockwell Day and the Harper elections, to complete indifference.

Mike Harris and Margaret Thatcher types are a response to years of spineless, incompetent mismanagement, and that is exactly what Ontario has been enduring under McGuinty. Anyone who can defend McGuinty by decrying Harris for mismanagement hasn't got the first clue about the problems Ontario is currently experiencing under this government and would be best advised not to offer up his ignorance for public consumption.

Mike Harris and Dalton McGuinty are both mismanagers of very different types. Harris had absolutely no background in business, but spoke as if he could reorganize Ontario. Which he did until the public tired of the strife and the deaths.

McGuinty papers over, taxes and manages by polls which is spineless and incompetent too, and even worse than Harris in a lot of ways.

I wouldn't want to choose from the two, and in fact I won't. You shouldn't have to either. The idea that there are two ways to run government (cut to the bone, or wastefully and cynically) is a product of low expectations such as yours and lazy lawyers and smarter-than-thous running government.

[Michael Hardner]

Harris does not speak French and apparently has no desire to learn it. No one without French has been seriously put forward for leadership of any of the federal political parties.

Harris' name came up regularly as I said. These are called 'feelers'. I'm sure Harris can speak French better than Manning could.

[Argus]

Mike Harris and Dalton McGuinty are both mismanagers of very different types. Harris had absolutely no background in business, but spoke as if he could reorganize Ontario. Which he did until the public tired of the strife and the deaths.

I was never a big fan of Harris. I thought he used an axe where a knife ought to have done. Nevertheless, he DID, actually, reorganize Ontario, and didn't do a bad job of it. The endless strife was entirely coming from the far left and unions (who had profited handsomely from previous governments and had no intention of surrending their power and wealth. McGuinty has bought peace by bribing these groups. Health cares is just as bad as it was when the health care workers were snivelling about it, but they no longer snivel because of fat raises. Education is just as poor as it was when teachers were bemoaning the sorry state of our classrooms - but with fat raises at hand, they're smiling contentedly. The hypocrisy of these people is simply classic.

McGuinty papers over, taxes and manages by polls which is spineless and incompetent too, and even worse than Harris in a lot of ways.

Then why defend him? This whole "Harris was horrible" crap is just a distraction from the subject of this topic anyway.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Argus

[Argus]

Harris' name came up regularly as I said. These are called 'feelers'. I'm sure Harris can speak French better than Manning could.

And Manning had to start his own party to gain leadership! You think he'd have had a chance to become leader of the PCs? You think Stockwell Day was really the best that could be offered up to replace him? But they wanted someone bilingual and the supply of such people was limited.

[Argus]

Public protest is not a violent action. Neither is blocking a road. Ask the Public Works Department....

Are you trying to be funny, or are you even aware of it?

Every aborigine protest which blocks public facilities has been violent. Caledonia is no exception. What you do is get a large group together, usually armed, and bully people. That is the sort of behaviour the police are meant to put down, but don't because McGuinty is absolutely terrified an aborigine will get hurt in such a fracas.

As to your fantasy that someone would be attacked if they crossed the blockade, well it is way out there with your tin foil hat theories. The FACT is that about 25 non-native people did in fact cross the barricades at the height of the conflict, had coffees in hand, attended pot lunch suppers and spoke freely with all the protesters to get their point of view,

LOL, you mean sycophantic NDP types - like you - went in to kiss ass and praise the aborigines in the typical patronizing way so many liberals use. And sure, the aborigines accepted that!

But let someone try and drive around their road block and watch the violence ensue. In fact, we have no difficult imaginining that sort of thing as it was witnessed repeatedly at Caledonia. Everyone from police to journalists to private citizens were assaulted and robbed by criminal aborigine thugs while Mcguinty's OPP turned their heads away.

If the aborigines tried this sort of thing in the U.S. most of them would be mown down by gunfire from the local citizenry regardless of what the police or politicians said.

[Wild Bill]

As someone who was formerly extremely sympathetic to aborigines and their problems, acts like this, repeated over the years, have robbed me of almost any sympathy. I now feel that they deserve no sympathy, and that the government needs to show the heavy iron fist under the layer of velvet with which all governments normally treat citizens.

Chill out a bit, Argus! It's not logical to tar all natives with a Six Nations brush. There are 100's of different bands all across the country and not all of them have used Six Nations tactics.

Six Nations is solely responsible for their own actions. I too consider their protest tactics to be that of uncivilized barbarians but I would never think that ALL natives are like them!

Such an opinion is not only racist but illogical.

All that being said, McGuinty allowed them to get away with what they've done. As I've said many times, I would have had much more respect for the Six Nations protesters if they just once drove their ATV's through McGUINTY'S back yard one night!

Perhaps they have a secret arrangement with him. This is politics, after all.

[Michael Hardner]

Then why defend him? This whole "Harris was horrible" crap is just a distraction from the subject of this topic anyway.

Please point at an instance of me defending McGuinty. I don't recall ever having done so in his entire office.

It's very sad that our politics has become so binary that people automatically assume you can be only conservative or liberal.

[Wild Bill]

Here's a link to Rex Murphy's commentary about Caledonia and the current lawsuit from CBC's "The National", aired Thursday, November 19.

http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/indepthanalysis/rexmurphy/story/2009/11/19/national-rexmurphy-091119.html

"November 19, 2009

Reading the saga of David Brown and his wife Dana Chatwell – a family caught in the turmoil and lawlessness of the now-famous Caledonia protest and blockade over native land claims – I have really only one question.

Why, after going through what they accurately describe as 496 days in hell, caught between the rock of indifference of all Ontario’s political authorities, and the extremely hard place of the barricades, burnings and harassment from the native occupiers, do these two have to go to court to receive some redress?"

It's nice to see the Caledonia issue receiving such attention from our national broadcaster. No doubt the usual shills on this board will claim that Rex fabricated the entire issue just to make Six Nations protesters look bad...

[madmax]

Why, after going through what they accurately describe as 496 days in hell, caught between the rock of indifference of all Ontarios political authorities, and the extremely hard place of the barricades, burnings and harassment from the native occupiers, do these two have to go to court to receive some redress?"[/b][/i]

It's nice to see the Caledonia issue receiving such attention from our national broadcaster. No doubt the usual shills on this board will claim that Rex fabricated the entire issue just to make Six Nations protesters look bad...

I agree that it is nice to see Caledonia receiving attention. The CPC have stayed far far far away from this as has the Ontario Liberals. Considering that this is a Conservative held riding it is shameful that they stay away from Caledonia.

Henco was quickly compensated.

However, the question is about redress.

One group waiting over a hundred years for an accounting. Another couple 1.6 years.

Without heat the government will fail to act. Government and political parties like to move the heat onto the OPP. Bait and switch responsibility. There is plenty of blame, but the apathy of the Federal and Provincial government is disgraceful.

Bottom line is the Government is ultimately responsible for the endgame. Locking people up isn't going to make a difference over the long run.

Evidence in this thread shows that the government avoids talks.

I went to one of these meetings on behalf of a firm and met Marie Trainer Mayor of Caledonia and later Toby Barrett. They are none too impressed. Perhaps most disturbing is that the Native groups show up with documents and documents and documents and documents and documents. The government shows up with a buffet table and writes deals on a napkin. Close to that. Scribbled offers in pencil with no accounting on how a figure was achieved. Bait and switch are considered good negotiating tactics, however, these tactics do not build trust. For some reason the Negotiator for the Federal Government was proud of this action boasting about it during a Chamber of Commerce presentation, while claiming the offer was substantial and fair. (Which it may have been although no accounting of how the figure was achieved exists).

IIRC Native Groups have been holding town hall meetings for close to two years. Politicians tend to avoid these town hall meetings because after a document is disclosed to the public the townsfold want the politician to answer whether or not the document is valid. Its why they duck out.

Now, how did this guy shoot a hole in his roof again???

Edited November 20, 2009 by madmax

[Wild Bill]

I agree that it is nice to see Caledonia receiving attention. The CPC have stayed far far far away from this as has the Ontario Liberals. Considering that this is a Conservative held riding it is shameful that they stay away from Caledonia.

Henco was quickly compensated.

However, the question is about redress.

One group waiting over a hundred years for an accounting. Another couple 1.6 years.

Without heat the government will fail to act. Government and political parties like to move the heat onto the OPP. Bait and switch responsibility. There is plenty of blame, but the apathy of the Federal and Provincial government is disgraceful.

Bottom line is the Government is ultimately responsible for the endgame. Locking people up isn't going to make a difference over the long run.

Evidence in this thread shows that the government avoids talks.

I went to one of these meetings on behalf of a firm and met Marie Trainer Mayor of Caledonia and later Toby Barrett. They are none too impressed. Perhaps most disturbing is that the Native groups show up with documents and documents and documents and documents and documents. The government shows up with a buffet table and writes deals on a napkin. Close to that. Scribbled offers in pencil with no accounting on how a figure was achieved. Bait and switch are considered good negotiating tactics, however, these tactics do not build trust. For some reason the Negotiator for the Federal Government was proud of this action boasting about it during a Chamber of Commerce presentation, while claiming the offer was substantial and fair. (Which it may have been although no accounting of how the figure was achieved exists).

IIRC Native Groups have been holding town hall meetings for close to two years. Politicians tend to avoid these town hall meetings because after a document is disclosed to the public the townsfold want the politician to answer whether or not the document is valid. Its why they duck out.

Now, how did this guy shoot a hole in his roof again???

Max, did you actually read the story of what this couple has been through? Your post makes me think you didn't, especially when you blow them off as having waited "only 1.6 years".

This couple had nothing to do with land claims or negotiations. They simply had the misfortune to have the only home behind the native protest lines. They were vandalized and intimidated. The OPP ignored their plight.

He blew a hole in his roof 'cuz he fell asleep with a shotgun while in a chair, listening for someone possibly breaking into his house. Not a smart way to handle a firearm but after all, he was suffering literally from months of sleep deprivation.

Could YOU sleep soundly every night in his situation?

Have you personally ever seen a Caledonia native protest line up close? Those people are not acting like Wally and Beaver Cleaver.

I really thought from reading your posts all this time that you had a bit more empathy than that for your fellow man...

[madmax]

Max, did you actually read the story of what this couple has been through? Your post makes me think you didn't, especially when you blow them off as having waited "only 1.6 years".

I haven't blown off anyone. Don't confuse me with the Federal and Provincial Government.

Have you personally ever seen a Caledonia native protest line up close? Those people are not acting like Wally and Beaver Cleaver.

Last few times I was in the area there was one person on the DCE.

I really thought from reading your posts all this time that you had a bit more empathy than that for your fellow man...

Don't be fooled by this

Shooting a hole in your ceiling is not a positive way to achieve credibility in the court system.

I empathize with all sides regarding the apathetic behaviour of our government (s).

[charter.rights]

I haven't blown off anyone. Don't confuse me with the Federal and Provincial Government.

Last few times I was in the area there was one person on the DCE.

Don't be fooled by this

Shooting a hole in your ceiling is not a positive way to achieve credibility in the court system.

I empathize with all sides regarding the apathetic behaviour of our government (s).

Dave Brown has been responsible for and participated in a number of antics to try to elevate the tensions in Caledonia. The OPP investigate him for trashing his own house...but then he still denies it...and there are no other suspects...

Dave Brown stated real early on that he wanted the government to buy him out of his house. Everything he has done seems to point to that end.

So when the other evidence comes out...including all the video evidence of Brownies craziness...I have no doubt he will be shown for the nutcase he was BEFORE DCE was occupied. As for losing his job, he did that all on his own. It had nothing to with DCE and everything to do with no one wanting to do business with him.

[madmax]

Dave Brown stated real early on that he wanted the government to buy him out of his house. Everything he has done seems to point to that end.

And why not? I don't care if these people are full blown lunatics. Its quite possible they are unstable people. However, my view is that unstable people living next to an area of dispute, one that it is virtually impossible for them to avoid because of location should receive compensation. These people might be the nightmare neighbour no one ever wants next door. Just because people are crazy, come home drunk and have to pass through a protest line, act irrationally and shoot holes in their ceilins is no reason not compensate them. Similar irrational behaviour existed on the other side too.

I just saw a video while googling. There is definitely some issues with this couple. But I find that the government is using a blame the victim mentality. Henco used the protest as an opportunity to cash in. The municipal government used the protest as an opportunity to cash in. What is wrong with a couple of people who live next door to the situation bellying up to the trough?

I believe there will be some sympathy for these people.

Pay them off....

Then Argus can appreciate his new neighbours

[Shwa]

after going through what they accurately describe as 496 days in hell,

496 days?? Wow!

I think the smart thing would have been to move. I mean, there are victims and then there are volunteers. Unless there was some form of ulterior motive, who in their right mind would subject themselves to the level of abuse that they claim has happened to them?

Aborigines? Did some Australian natives join the protest in Caledonia? I didn't hear about that! Who paid for their airfare? Did they shoot off some boomerangs or something?

This is terrible! :angry: