McGuinty's Cowardice on Display

[Argus]

496 days?? Wow!

I think the smart thing would have been to move.

Never owned a house, did you? And never likely to, I'm guessing.

Aborigines? Did some Australian natives join the protest in Caledonia? I didn't hear about that! Who paid for their airfare? Did they shoot off some boomerangs or something?

Aborigine (from Aboriginals) is the proper descriptive term for them. Using ther term "native" is silly. Everyone who lives here is a native of Canada.

[charter.rights]

And why not? I don't care if these people are full blown lunatics. Its quite possible they are unstable people. However, my view is that unstable people living next to an area of dispute, one that it is virtually impossible for them to avoid because of location should receive compensation. These people might be the nightmare neighbour no one ever wants next door. Just because people are crazy, come home drunk and have to pass through a protest line, act irrationally and shoot holes in their ceilins is no reason not compensate them. Similar irrational behaviour existed on the other side too.

I just saw a video while googling. There is definitely some issues with this couple. But I find that the government is using a blame the victim mentality. Henco used the protest as an opportunity to cash in. The municipal government used the protest as an opportunity to cash in. What is wrong with a couple of people who live next door to the situation bellying up to the trough?

I believe there will be some sympathy for these people.

Pay them off....

Then Argus can appreciate his new neighbours

Ya but...

Both Dave and Dana didn't have enough to keep their mouths shut while they were passing through the barricades.

Wait until it comes out in court who's idea it was start hitting golf balls at the protesters.....What would you expect for such stupid and violent instigation?

Edited November 20, 2009 by charter.rights

[Shwa]

Never owned a house, did you? And never likely to, I'm guessing.

You guess wrong, which is no surprise at all. I own a very nice expensive house in a modern urban area and even still I would not subject myself to 486 days of incessant abuse. And I mean, realistically, how much can some little shack in Caledonia be worth? Especially when it is right next door to this big Native protest. Let the market decide the price eh? Otherwise, there are ways to recoup those sorts of losses and the smart thing would have been to engage those processes before too long.

Aborigine (from Aboriginals) is the proper descriptive term for them. Using ther term "native" is silly. Everyone who lives here is a native of Canada.

Not quite. The accepted term in Canada is Aboriginal. But it has as much meaning as saying that the protesters who shut down the Gardiner in the summer were 'south asian.' Technically correct, but not too bright. And...

Technically speaking, everyone who lives here is not a "native" since "native" usually refers to someone born here, which excludes many, many people. The etymology of the word has its roots in the concept of birth. However, using the word capitalized is also an accepted form to denote Aboriginal people or First Nations people; or Mohawks or other folks from Six Nations.

Nice try though. For someone who once had "extreme sympathy" you show a complete lack of knowledge of even the simplest accepted terminology. Are you sure you aren't confusing Native people with an orchestra and you had "extreme symphony" instead?

Edited November 20, 2009 by Shwa

[charter.rights]

You guess wrong, which is no surprise at all. I own a very nice expensive house in a modern urban area and even still I would not subject myself to 486 days of incessant abuse. And I mean, realistically, how much can some little shack in Caledonia be worth? Especially when it is right next door to this big Native protest. Let the market decide the price eh? Otherwise, there are ways to recoup those sorts of losses and the smart thing would have been to engage those processes before too long.

Not quite. The accepted term in Canada is Aboriginal. But it has as much meaning as saying that the protesters who shut down the Gardiner in the summer were 'south asian.' Technically correct, but not too bright. And...

Technically speaking, everyone who lives here is not a "native" since "native" usually refers to someone born here, which excludes many, many people. The etymology of the word has its roots in the concept of birth. However, using the word capitalized is also an accepted form to denote Aboriginal people or First Nations people; or Mohawks or other folks from Six Nations.

Nice try though. For someone who once had "extreme sympathy" you show a complete lack of knowledge of even the simplest accepted terminology. Are you sure you aren't confusing Native people with an orchestra and you had "extreme symphony" instead?

Argus has never had ANY sympathy for First Nations people, as long as he has been posting on this board. He used to be the first one to come with laments over First Nation "privileges" whenever they hit mainstream news.

Argus has no home. Pity. Almost makes me feel sorry for you....not...

[madmax]

Ya but...

I don't care about their character. I don't care if they were provocative. Did the police provide them the security they needed to get to in and out of their home?

[charter.rights]

I don't care about their character. I don't care if they were provocative. Did the police provide them the security they needed to get to in and out of their home?

Yes, they did. The OPP stood at the barricades to ensure that no one got out of hand. And most of the time they had to face Caledonia residents - including Dave Brown and Dana Chatwell on the front lines - for trying to provoke a fight with Six Nation protesters.

Your interest and your pity is premature. Remember, the media are simply commenting on the Brown's case and witnesses. Once the Crown brings its evidence and witnesses forward it will not be so flattering. Also keep in mind, that I have followed this from the beginning - watching Brown trying to maneuver himself into a buy-out. You are simply responding to sensationalized versions of bias reports...you don't think Rex Murphy or Christie Blatchford were (or are capable of)being objective do you?

Edited November 20, 2009 by charter.rights

[madmax]

Yes, they did.

That will make the basis of this case. We will see if the crown prevails or not.

Your interest and your pity is premature.

My interest has been around since 05, but I generally lurk around these threads. Pity does not exist for any of the players nor should their be any.

My focus is that the government(S) get off its ass and do something so that things aren't left in the hands of individual renegades and protesters trying to find justice and social justice while the government goes awol.

[capricorn]

My focus is that the government(S) get off its ass and do something so that things aren't left in the hands of individual renegades and protesters trying to find justice and social justice while the government goes awol.

Me too.

[Topaz]

This isn't the first time nor will it be the last time the First Nation will run into problems over land. Both, the provincial and the federal governments aren't moving fast enough on these kind of issues.Yeah, Harris was a strong leader, but the wrong kind of leader, he sent the OPP to get the FN out and he sent the OPP on the CUPE too when they decided to strike!

[charter.rights]

That will make the basis of this case. We will see if the crown prevails or not.

My interest has been around since 05, but I generally lurk around these threads. Pity does not exist for any of the players nor should their be any.

My focus is that the government(S) get off its ass and do something so that things aren't left in the hands of individual renegades and protesters trying to find justice and social justice while the government goes awol.

That is still not far enough back into the issues.

Do you know why Six Nations occupied the DCE site?

[g_bambino]

Do you know why Six Nations occupied the DCE site?

Because they're lawless goons, of course.

[charter.rights]

Because they're lawless goons, of course.

Hey we might agree.

The federal, provincial and municipal governments refused to comply with the law and consult, accommodate and reconcile their need for development with Six Nations Charter and Land Rights. Not only had this begun way back in 1995, but Six Nations had been objecting to Haldimand County for at least two years, and requesting consultation. Just like Oka, Six Nations had no choice but to go in and stop the development. They had been in court too, but the government was delaying put a case forward, and Haldimand issued the Building Permits, in spite of being told they had no right to develop on Six Nations land.

So yes you are right...those goons continue to be lawless.

[g_bambino]

Two intriguing takes on the matter:

This week in Hamilton, Ont., a court is hearing a civil suit against the Ontario government and police. The testimony has shed light on just how back-handed and cowardly the handling of the Caledonia siege has been by provincial officials.

...

Where the McGuinty government scurried to appease the Mohawk squatters -- even paying well over the market value for the land they demanded --it hurried just as hard to beat back the Browns' claim lest the inequity of it all expose the two-tiered, politically correct hash the federal and provincial governments have made of the rule of law as it is applied to aboriginals and non-aboriginals.

Undermining the rule of law

There was plenty of violence in Caledonia, as has been made amply clear in the opening days of the case brought by David Brown and his wife Dana Chatwell. Violence against the Browns, violence against the police, violence against the community. A hydro station was burned, a bridge set ablaze; natives in balaclavas and brandishing weapons closed off streets and issued threats against people who challenged them.

...

It's the acceptance of this that is alarming. This case isn't about whether it was right or wrong for the natives to act as they did, it's about whether authorities should have done more to protect an innocent couple from its effects. It's as if the violence itself isn't an issue. As if Canadians -- or people in Ontario, in any case -- have come to accept that it's normal for natives to react with threats, aggression and intimidation in certain circumstances, and that it's normal for authorities to accept that fact and accommodate it.

Why do we accept native violence as normal?

[g_bambino]

Just like Oka, Six Nations had no choice but to go in and stop the development.

Yes, I knew you'd answer this way: merely make excuses for the natives' display of abhorrent behaviour. Do you have a script to read from, or something?

[charter.rights]

Yes, I knew you'd answer this way: merely make excuses for the natives' display of abhorrent behaviour. Do you have a script to read from, or something?

Your denial demonstrates that you do not believe in the rule of law and accept the tyranny of government.

That's what I expected from you, and you fell into the trap quite nicely...thanks...

[g_bambino]

Your denial demonstrates that you do not believe in the rule of law and accept the tyranny of government.

You're merely avoiding the point: there is no excuse for the barbaric behaviour of the natives in Caledonia. None. Indeed, your support for them would indicate you have no belief in the rule of law and accept the tyranny of thugs.

[charter.rights]

You're merely avoiding the point: there is no excuse for the barbaric behaviour of the natives in Caledonia. None. Indeed, your support for them would indicate you have no belief in the rule of law and accept the tyranny of thugs.

I'm not avoiding the point - you are missing it.

Had the all levels of government complied with the law and entered into negotiations as they are required to do, there would have been no need for Six Nations to reclaim and occupy the DCE. Had the Ontario government through the OPP not tried their Ipperwash tactics on DCE protesters there would never have been an elevation of counter tactics, including the escalation to violence we have seen on both sides.

However, to the actual point of this discussion, Brown and Chatwell were part of a contingent of racist people from Caledonia who used the conflicts to exercise their hatred. They invited Caledonians to throw rocks and golf balls, at protesters, to beat up an elderly couple and to raise all kinds of violent actions to a what started out as a peaceful protest.

The OPP moved in 150 officers with high-power weapons and clubbed, tasered, pepper-sprayed and beat 25 women, children and old people to a pulp way back in April 2006, which cause about 300 more people from Six Nations to arrive and drive them back. And while there have been a few fist fights and loud mouths between both sides, there were no direct attacks on Brown and Chatwell (all of their court evidence revolves around their feeling threatened - not ever actually being threatened or harmed). And when we review the footage of many videos on line, there is Dave Brown in the middle of almost every shouting match, fist fight or racist rally. Of ant it hasn't come out yet how many times they called police. I understand on one day alone, Dana Chatwell phone 26 times, the OPP responded about 10 times only to find nothing was going on....and after that they got put on the crank list.

The evidence will also show that other than some regular patrols around the site, there was very little contact between Brown and the protesters from the site other than him standing in his backyard in his underwear yelling his drunken head off at kids playing in the field behind his house.

Of course you don't know this stuff because all you have ever been interested in is how you can stick it to the natives. Probably why you are on my ignore list and will be for a long time. Not only can I not stand anti-Semitics, but racists piss me off equally as much, and so it is better to ignore what they say, rather than get myself pissed off.

[iGNORE]

Edited November 21, 2009 by charter.rights

[g_bambino]

I'm not avoiding the point - you are missing it.

Had the all levels of government complied blah, blah, blah...

I'm hardly missing the point that you continually make excuses for violent, threatening, thuggish behaviour. These types are your heroes, and that says quite a bit about you.

[Shwa]

You're merely avoiding the point: there is no excuse for the barbaric behaviour of the natives in Caledonia. None. Indeed, your support for them would indicate you have no belief in the rule of law and accept the tyranny of thugs.

Man, you make it sound like the Natives are like the Mafia or something.

[Argus]

Man, you make it sound like the Natives are like the Mafia or something.

There is not a lot of difference between the Mohawk Warriors and the Hells Angels except in the vehicles they drive. Both are criminal organizations which make money off smuggling, drugs and prostitution, and which regularly use violence and intimidation to get their way. A large chunk of the illegal firearms which are used to shoot up Toronto, Montreal and other cities came through the hands of the Warriors.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Argus

[Argus]

Argus has never had ANY sympathy for First Nations people, as long as he has been posting on this board. He used to be the first one to come with laments over First Nation "privileges" whenever they hit mainstream news.

I respect lawful, hard-working people. There aren't many aborigines who fall into that category, at least, not on the reserves. And even fewer among the so-called Six Nations, where lawlessness, smuggling and drug and alcohol abuse are the major cultural features. And I detest those who use violence against the innoncent - which unfortunately, seems to be another commonality among Six Nations thugs.

[Argus]

You guess wrong, which is no surprise at all. I own a very nice expensive house in a modern urban area and even still I would not subject myself to 486 days of incessant abuse. And I mean, realistically, how much can some little shack in Caledonia be worth?

His entire life savings, perhaps?

Especially when it is right next door to this big Native protest. Let the market decide the price eh?

How cavalierly hard-harded and thoughtless of you. How odd that someone allegedly concerned with aborigine rights is ONLY concerned with aborigine rights, and doesn't give a crap about any other people.

Not quite. The accepted term in Canada is Aboriginal.

EtymologyAttested 1660–70. From aborigine (1540–50) + -al, in turn a back-formation from plural aborigines, from Latin, applied in classical times to indigenous peoples of Italy and Greece, probably from ab origine (“‘from the beginning’”).

Seems like an accurate word to use to me.

Technically speaking, everyone who lives here is not a "native" since "native" usually refers to someone born here, which excludes many, many people. The etymology of the word has its roots in the concept of birth. However, using the word capitalized is also an accepted form to denote Aboriginal people or First Nations people; or Mohawks or other folks from Six Nations.

Acceptable? Fine. It's just not acceptable to me. But then, I have this thing about honesty.

[charter.rights]

But then, I have this thing about honesty.

Ya...you don't believe in it....

Mythology is more your style...

[g_bambino]

Man, you make it sound like the Natives are like the Mafia or something.

Hardly. The Mafia has more sophistication than the goon show in Caledonia.

[Shwa]

Hardly. The Mafia has more sophistication than the goon show in Caledonia.

Yes the Mafia murder, beat, maim, rape, cheat, thieve, bribe, corrupt, destroy, etc., while the thugs in Six Nations pee on lawns. Much more sophisticated indeed.