McGuinty's Cowardice on Display

[Argus]

How long has the Caledonia thing been going on now? Years? McGuinty made a fine propaganda campaign against the Tories for their handling of the Ipperwash occupation. After he came to power he decided to continue this by having a formal inquiry to again portray the Tories as being evil, violent and intollerent towards aborigines.

Along came his own occupation, and Mcguinty seemed like a deer, frozen in the headlights. The OPP did give one soft push against the aborigines at one point, but when they met with resistance the word from the premier's office was shrill and adamant "There are to be no violent actions of any kind taken against natives regardless of provocation". The OPP were given their marching orders: No aborigine at Caledonia was to be bothered, no matter how many laws he or she broke.

The rank, gutless, snivelling, self-serving cowardice of McGuinty's decision can be seen in the testimony of one of the families they abandoned to the depredation of violent and lawless aborigine gangs at a lawsuit against the government and OPP.

National Post

McGuinty and his lackeys like Fantino have attempted to portray all this non-action as being in the interest of peace and tolerance, but it is abundantly clear to anyone who has even cursorily observed what has been happening, that the sole reason for the inaction by the OPP is that McGuinty doesn't want to be the victim of his own smear campaign. He put so much effort into smearing Mike Harris that he's terrified that if anything nasty happens to an aborigine at the hands of the OPP he'll be presumed to be just as "guilty". It is, frankly, disgusting. Every time I think my opinion of this man could not possibly sink lower (I rate him as the most dispicable politician of any party I've ever observed during my lifetime) my opinion manages to sink still lower.

[Michael Hardner]

How long has the Caledonia thing been going on now? Years? McGuinty made a fine propaganda campaign against the Tories for their handling of the Ipperwash occupation. After he came to power he decided to continue this by having a formal inquiry to again portray the Tories as being evil, violent and intollerent towards aborigines.

Along came his own occupation, and Mcguinty seemed like a deer, frozen in the headlights. The OPP did give one soft push against the aborigines at one point, but when they met with resistance the word from the premier's office was shrill and adamant "There are to be no violent actions of any kind taken against natives regardless of provocation". The OPP were given their marching orders: No aborigine at Caledonia was to be bothered, no matter how many laws he or she broke.

The rank, gutless, snivelling, self-serving cowardice of McGuinty's decision can be seen in the testimony of one of the families they abandoned to the depredation of violent and lawless aborigine gangs at a lawsuit against the government and OPP.

National Post

McGuinty and his lackeys like Fantino have attempted to portray all this non-action as being in the interest of peace and tolerance, but it is abundantly clear to anyone who has even cursorily observed what has been happening, that the sole reason for the inaction by the OPP is that McGuinty doesn't want to be the victim of his own smear campaign. He put so much effort into smearing Mike Harris that he's terrified that if anything nasty happens to an aborigine at the hands of the OPP he'll be presumed to be just as "guilty". It is, frankly, disgusting. Every time I think my opinion of this man could not possibly sink lower (I rate him as the most dispicable politician of any party I've ever observed during my lifetime) my opinion manages to sink still lower.

I am willing to give the governments (Canada is the chief negotiator according to this website:

http://www.aboriginalaffairs.gov.on.ca/english/negotiate/sixnations/faq.asp) the benefit of the doubt, at least to a point.

But the Ontario government has actually stopped updating the website. I guess now that this is no longer in the news, we don't need to be updated as to the status. )

http://www.aboriginalaffairs.gov.on.ca/english/negotiate/sixnations/events.asp

[Michael Hardner]

I have sent a news tip to 680 News to let them know that it's been a year and a half since the government has let us know about a meeting...

[madmax]

Along came his own occupation, and Mcguinty seemed like a deer, frozen in the headlights. The OPP did give one soft push against the aborigines at one point, but when they met with resistance the word from the premier's office was shrill and adamant

The media was kept away from the scene on the day the OPP arrested the protestors. They weren't on the DCE but were dragged across onto the property arrested and some tasered multiple times. Most of the people arrested charges were dropped because the video evidence and still photo evidence showed the OPP taking people who were off the property and pulling them onto the property to arrest them. It looks like a scene from a laurel and hardy movie or the keystone cops.

Regardless, that isn't the Only time that police engage in arresting people from Six Nations. OPP and Local Police will arrive at the location of the offender. They are all videotaped and identified while at protest sites. They are then told to go down to the police station and sign bail conditions that forbid them from going to the site.

IIRC there is only 1 person left at DCE.

The rank, gutless, snivelling, self-serving cowardice of McGuinty's decision can be seen in the testimony of one of the families they abandoned to the depredation of violent and lawless aborigine gangs at a lawsuit against the government and OPP.

While McGuintys handling of the situation is weak, the comments above are rediculous but play into a good story and sell papers.

He put so much effort into smearing Mike Harris that he's terrified that if anything nasty happens to an aborigine at the hands of the OPP he'll be presumed to be just as "guilty". It is, frankly, disgusting. Every time I think my opinion of this man could not possibly sink lower (I rate him as the most dispicable politician of any party I've ever observed during my lifetime) my opinion manages to sink still lower.

McGuintys failure has nothing to do with Mike the Coward Harris. I have no use for a person who sold out his police force, but Harris is the one who went into denial. That is a separate issue.

You might want to find the answer as to why the Federal Conservative Government purchased the Douglas Creek Estates?

http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ai/mr/nr/j-a2007/2-2856-eng.asp

Recognizing that events in Caledonia have given rise to unique circumstances and extraordinary costs for the Province of Ontario, the ex gratia payment comprises $15.8 million toward Ontario's acquisition of the Douglas Creek Estates properties

1992: Henco Industries Ltd. purchased 40 hectares of land for what it would later call the Douglas Creek Estates lands

1995: Six Nations sued the federal and provincial governments over the land.

2005: The subdivision plan for Douglas Creek Estates was registered with title to the property guaranteed by the province of Ontario.

Looks to me like the Developer did pretty good.

Edited November 17, 2009 by madmax

[Argus]

I am willing to give the governments (Canada is the chief negotiator

This has NOTHING to do with negotiations. It has to do with enforcing the law and protecting people.

By way of comparison, some people were cheated out of their homes in Ontario a few years back, by fraud artists who borrowed against properties they didn't own. People actually had to vacate their homes and let banks take posession of them until the situation worked its way through the courts.

Now according to the way the aborigines act, what those people ought to have done is get together a large group of friends, beat up the bailiff coming to take posession, block off the street, and insist that they aren't leaving until their situation is finally pronounced on by the courts. Furthermore, they should have intimidated their neighbors, set up a curfew, and only permit their neighbours to pass through their lines at certain times of the day.

Note that I am using an example where they actually do own that property and where they actually are in the right and being treated unjustly. That has not been demonstrated in this case vis a vis the aborigine claims.

Of course, if these people had gone that route, the police simply would have moved in and used whatever level of force was required to subdue them and drag them off. That is precisely what the OPP needs to do at Caledonia. And I'm sorry if the natives resist and there's violence. But people who resist the police deserve the violence they get. I don't care if someone gets killed. I don't care if a thousand people get killed. Law and order require that the law be enforced, and that you can't thumb your nose at it by either arming yourself or getting together a bunch of like-minded lawbreakers.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Argus

[Argus]

The media was kept away from the scene on the day the OPP arrested the protestors. They weren't on the DCE but were dragged across onto the property arrested and some tasered multiple times.

And their children were yelled at and their dogs kicked and the police called them dirty names no doubt. I don't know how I could convey to you how little I care about any of that. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who throws a barricade across a public road and forcefully resists leaving deserves to get his ass kicked.

[Michael Hardner]

This has NOTHING to do with negotiations. It has to do with enforcing the law and protecting people.

By way of comparison, some people were cheated out of their homes in Ontario a few years back, by fraud artists who borrowed against properties they didn't own. People actually had to vacate their homes and let banks take posession of them until the situation worked its way through the courts.

Now according to the way the aborigines act, what those people ought to have done is get together a large group of friends, beat up the bailiff coming to take posession, block off the street, and insist that they aren't leaving until their situation is finally pronounced on by the courts. Furthermore, they should have intimidated their neighbors, set up a curfew, and only permit their neighbours to pass through their lines at certain times of the day.

Note that I am using an example where they actually do own that property and where they actually are in the right and being treated unjustly. That has not been demonstrated in this case vis a vis the aborigine claims.

Of course, if these people had gone that route, the police simply would have moved in and used whatever level of force was required to subdue them and drag them off. That is precisely what the OPP needs to do at Caledonia. And I'm sorry if the natives resist and there's violence. But people who resist the police deserve the violence they get. I don't care if someone gets killed. I don't care if a thousand people get killed. Law and order require that the law be enforced, and that you can't thumb your nose at it by either arming yourself or getting together a bunch of like-minded lawbreakers.

Fair enough. Harris didn't seem to care if somebody got killed either. And somebody was killed. And we don't have Harris anymore.

Don't run for Premier, Argus.

[madmax]

I don't care if someone gets killed. I don't care if a thousand people get killed.

I missed this the first read.

[Argus]

Fair enough. Harris didn't seem to care if somebody got killed either. And somebody was killed. And we don't have Harris anymore.

Don't run for Premier, Argus.

The only people who ever gave a damn about Ipperwash were people who would never have voted for Harris anyway. My opinion of him was unchanged vis a vis Ipperwash. In fact, if anything, it is improved by him telling the OPP he wanted the damned natives out of the park. Most of the people in Canada - other then the left - like strong leaders. Even the people who don't like Harper and vote Liberal still think he's a better prime minister than their guy because he's a strong leader.

Police officers did not even go to the home of the plaintiffs in this case, David Brown and Dana Chatwell, in response to 9-1-1 calls. "We weren't permitted to cross the barricades," Insp. Haggith said, citing explicit orders from superior officers.

In their previous testimony, Insp. Haggith and OPP Superintendant John Cain acknowledged protestors committed numerous criminal offences including: attempted murder, uttering threats, assault causing bodily harm, robbery, trespass, mischief, forcible confinement, perhaps kidnapping and others.

A leader who refuses to protect citizens against the depredations of violent thugs because he fears political repercussions is a weakling and a coward.

National Post

[Michael Hardner]

The only people who ever gave a damn about Ipperwash were people who would never have voted for Harris anyway. My opinion of him was unchanged vis a vis Ipperwash. In fact, if anything, it is improved by him telling the OPP he wanted the damned natives out of the park. Most of the people in Canada - other then the left - like strong leaders. Even the people who don't like Harper and vote Liberal still think he's a better prime minister than their guy because he's a strong leader.

Police officers did not even go to the home of the plaintiffs in this case, David Brown and Dana Chatwell, in response to 9-1-1 calls. "We weren't permitted to cross the barricades," Insp. Haggith said, citing explicit orders from superior officers.

In their previous testimony, Insp. Haggith and OPP Superintendant John Cain acknowledged protestors committed numerous criminal offences including: attempted murder, uttering threats, assault causing bodily harm, robbery, trespass, mischief, forcible confinement, perhaps kidnapping and others.

A leader who refuses to protect citizens against the depredations of violent thugs because he fears political repercussions is a weakling and a coward.

National Post

There's an odd dichotomy at play there, I think. People "like" strong leaders, yet leaders like McGuinty and Chretien will continue in office for many terms while Harris doesn't appear to be allowed back into politics at all. Bob Rae is still around, on the national stage no less. But 'Google' Mike Harris in the news section and the only current personality with that name is a Welsh football star.

I think it's likely more descriptive to say we have a 'love/hate' relationship with strong leaders. Even Trudeau was shown the door in 1979 and called arrogant.

Thankfully, we haven't had a Mike Harris type prime minister mismanaging the country as he did the province. But that's for another thread.

[madmax]

In fact, if anything, it is improved by him telling the OPP he wanted the damned natives out of the park.

He denied it under oath. Someone must be lying.

On November 28, 2005, former Attorney General Charles Harnick testified before the inquiry that Harris had shouted "I want the fucking Indians out of the park" at a meeting with Ontario Provincial Police officer Ron Fox, hours before the shooting occurred (Canadian Press, 28 November 2005, 12:45 report). Other witnesses have disputed this account, and Harris himself has denied it under oath.

[geoffrey]

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who throws a barricade across a public road and forcefully resists leaving deserves to get his ass kicked.

I tend to agree. I would have cut off their support payments until the barricade came down as well. Without financial assistance, these reserves are impovrished banana republics with no real ability to do much. It's hard to man a barricade when you haven't eaten in a few days. Then go in and arrest them.

If they don't to be part of Canada, that's fine, but then they starve to death. Their choice really. Maybe Chavez will send them food aid? Not I though. They had their chance here.

It's time to just end the support outright if these individuals can't abide by our laws.

Further, all Canadians are entitled to equal protect by law enforcement. This kind of nonsense can't be tolerated. I don't care about sensitive feelings on reserves. Militant violents needs to be met with overwelming force. I wouldn't have protested one bit if McGuinty approved the army coming in and running over the barricades with tanks. That would have been a solution. Because then maybe they'd get how a democratic country works. It doesn't work through terrorism and violence. The state has an obligation to response with overwelming force against anyone and everyone that doesn't agree with that. Our society rests on that. Canadian soverignty rests upon that. Militant terrorist cells must be eliminated, whether they are Indian, Islamic or any other group. These individuals are terrorists.

[charter.rights]

Little do the malcontents know....

The court considered arguments that had been made before it about the importance of the rule of law in Canada. The court adopted comments it had previously made in Henco Industries Limited v. Haudenosaunee Six Nations Confederacy Council, in particular finding that the rule of law had several dimensions, one of which was the reconciliation of aboriginal and non-aboriginal interests through negotiation. The court expressed the opinion that when a court is asked by a private party to grant an injunction which may have an adverse impact on an asserted aboriginal or treaty right protected by section 35 of the Constitution Act, “such cases demanded careful and sensitive balancing of many important interests in accessing whether to grant the requested injunction and on what terms”.

The court went on to explain how these interests are to be effectively balanced. The court stated that the clear answer could be found in the last 20 years of jurisprudence of the Supreme Court of Canada and in particular the requirement for consultation, negotiation, accommodation and ultimately reconciliation of aboriginal rights and other important, but at times conflicting, interests. The court cited the long line of Supreme Court jurisprudence beginning with R. v. Sparrow, including Haida Nations v. British Columbia (Minister of Forest), Taku River Tlingit First Nation v. British Columbia (Project Assessment Director), and Mikisew Cree First Nation v. Canada (Minister of Heritage). The court found that this clear line of jurisprudence required that where constitutionally protected aboriginal rights are asserted, “injunctions sought by private parties to protect their interests should only be granted where every effort has been made by the court to encourage consultation, negotiation, accommodation and reconciliation among the competing rights and interests”. The Court of Appeal cautioned in particular that if the injunction is intended to create a “protest free zone” for contentious private activity that impacts upon an asserted aboriginal right, the court must be extremely careful to ensure that the duty to consult with the First Nation has been fully and faithfully discharged and that every effort had been exhausted to obtain a negotiated or legislated solution.

http://www.blakes.com/english/view.asp?ID=2456

Governments are governed by the rule of law and as such must consult, negotiate, accommodate, and reconcile all interests BEFORE any development occurs. When the government (municipal, provincial or federal)or any developer fails to exercise that responsibility, then protest by natives and others is perfectly acceptable in a free and democratic society.

Get over it and move on.

Edited November 18, 2009 by charter.rights

[Melanie_]

So you feel this couple was treated fairly by the Six Nations protesters? Come on, even those of us who recognize that there is a need to consult can't really justify the way this couple was treated.

[charter.rights]

So you feel this couple was treated fairly by the Six Nations protesters? Come on, even those of us who recognize that there is a need to consult can't really justify the way this couple was treated.

If you are referring to Dave Brown and Dana Chatwell who are suing the Ontario Government and the OPP, well then....neither of them is faultless.

There have been videos circulating showing Ms. Chatwell drunk yelling racial epithets at Six Nations people. Dave brown was reported to have instigated one Friday night with him and others driving golf balls towards Six Nations protesters; has been involved in numerous drunken mob nights, and; was key to trying to create a private militia with the intention of attacking unarmed and innocent Six Nation people as they entered Caledonia. Plus Mr. Brown was found with a loaded shotgun in his possession after he blew out the ceiling of his own home, and was reportedly recorded by hidden OPP surveillance trashing his own home and then tried to claim that protesters burglarized and vandalized it .

There is no doubt that they were in a precarious position when the occupation took place but there is no excuse for their own behavior. It seems odd don't you think that the 20 or so families that lived next door and down the street didn't have even a fraction of the problems they claim to have had.....but then again the neighbours weren't organizing mob protests with Gary McHale in order to justify their own violence.

I will wait and see what all the evidence reveals...but on first glance it doesn't look good for them...even if I thin the OPP acted inappropriately in many circumstances...

[Melanie_]

Is anyone faultless in this mess? As this unfolds, I will bet that both sides were inflammatory; but as it stands, Brown and Chatwell were harrassed continuously for simply wanting to live in their own house. It doesn't help the credibility of the protesters when these actions come to light.

[charter.rights]

Is anyone faultless in this mess? As this unfolds, I will bet that both sides were inflammatory; but as it stands, Brown and Chatwell were harrassed continuously for simply wanting to live in their own house. It doesn't help the credibility of the protesters when these actions come to light.

No, they were not "...harassed continuously for simply wanting to live in their own home...". There were a few incidents where police were called to settle a disturbance, and a couple of instances where protesters were on the other side of the fence behind their homes. However, there are just as many cases recorded where the two of them were on the sidewalk, or away their homes taunting protesters and inciting others to rage in mob scenes indicative of the movies.

However, to simply things, the occupation would not have been necessary at all had Haldimand County, the province or Henco executed their responsibilities for consultation since all of them had been on notice for more than 2 years prior to the occupation that the land was under claim by Six Nations and that it was their recommendation that no development should take place until the land claim had been properly dealt with. It stands today as still being occupied by Six nations for exactly the same reasons, and the court has ruled on more than one occasion that the Crown, the municipalities and the developers must consult BEFORE any development takes place.

[Melanie_]

However, to simply things, the occupation would not have been necessary at all had Haldimand County, the province or Henco executed their responsibilities for consultation since all of them had been on notice for more than 2 years prior to the occupation that the land was under claim by Six Nations and that it was their recommendation that no development should take place until the land claim had been properly dealt with. It stands today as still being occupied by Six nations for exactly the same reasons, and the court has ruled on more than one occasion that the Crown, the municipalities and the developers must consult BEFORE any development takes place.

Even if there is a legitimate reason for the occupation, neither side should be using violence, or the threat of violence, to make their point. It weakens the arguments of the Six Nations when they threaten families and drive children from their own homes.

[charter.rights]

Even if there is a legitimate reason for the occupation, neither side should be using violence, or the threat of violence, to make their point. It weakens the arguments of the Six Nations when they threaten families and drive children from their own homes.

Six Nations hasn't used violence. While there are some individuals on either side who have escalated their angry outbursts to violence, I am not so naive to suggest that everyone in Caledonia and everyone in Six Nations are violent...or are using violence to an end. However, I am critical of the OPP for using violence - taser, clubs and pepper spray - against women, old people and children who were occupying the site way back in 2006, to effect an illegal injunction. That created a reaction from Six Nations that exacerbated the protest to a more militant positioning for sometime afterward. But all and all the protest and occupation of DCE has been a calm, peaceful and otherwise mundane event ever since.

Edited November 18, 2009 by charter.rights

[Melanie_]

It's ok to criticize the methods, even while agreeing with the reasons why the protest came about. There may have been a philosophy of nonviolence at the beginning, but once the protest became militant, it carried the threat of violence, and the militants took over from the peaceful protesters, at least for a time. Even if no overt violence occurred towards Brown and Chatwell (and that is yet to be proven), they certainly didn't feel safe in their own home.

[charter.rights]

It's ok to criticize the methods, even while agreeing with the reasons why the protest came about. There may have been a philosophy of nonviolence at the beginning, but once the protest became militant, it carried the threat of violence, and the militants took over from the peaceful protesters, at least for a time. Even if no overt violence occurred towards Brown and Chatwell (and that is yet to be proven), they certainly didn't feel safe in their own home.

Having followed this from the beginning, there is little doubt in my mind that Brown and Chatwell were trying to manipulate themselves into a buyout from the province. Much of their "evidence" and complaints appear to have been fabricated by them. And of course now that we see the trial reports, they make it appear like they were terrified and intimidated by the protesters. Not so, according to much of the media, since they seemed to be in the middle of every anti-native protest going. Also, they have been involved in keeping the tensions going, presumably to strengthen their case that they are somehow victims of the occupation.

It is an unreasonable position in my mind since the other 20 families in the same area neither had a fraction of the complaints or fears they had. The difference was that few of their neighbours were involved in creating the tension that Brown and Chatwell did. I have no doubt that they invited much of their own alleged victimization, in the hopes the province would be as generous in buying them out as they were with Henco.

[Melanie_]

I haven't followed this as closely as you have, but I don't think the protesters are as blameless as you would have us believe. Of course, it is unlikely Brown and Chatwell are as blameless as they would have us believe, either. There are no saints in this situation, so the results of this trial will be interesting.

Anyway, I'm an old lady, so I need to get off to bed now. Good night!

[Wild Bill]

Fair enough. Harris didn't seem to care if somebody got killed either. And somebody was killed. And we don't have Harris anymore.

Don't run for Premier, Argus.

Well, he won't get your vote but he might get mine! So they cancel out. The real question is how many Ontario voters feel like Argus or like you!

While you may not agree with the degree of Argus' sentiment, it's hard to deny that there is a populist tinge to the situation. Many Canadians, particularly in rural areas like Caledonia, have been raised to appreciate and respect civic "rules". I live not too far away and have known many people from the area nearly all my life. When you talk to them about how people like Brown and Chatwell were left with zero police protection or support you see that they were literally shocked to their core! All their lives they believed that the police would come when called, the Fire Department would be there when needed and that while politicians were all a shifty bunch nonetheless when push came to shove they supported people's rights and freedoms.

While downtown Toronto may have some academic, ivory tower perspective to the citizens of Caledonia it looks like McGuinty has callously abandoned them! Anyone who thinks differently should go and ask at any Tim Hortons in the town. I have! You will get differing opinions about native land claims but the feeling seems almost unanimous that the townsfolk have been thrown to the wolves by McGuinty and particularly the OPP. No one seems to have bought the line that McGuinty didn't tell the OPP what to do.

The good news for McGuinty is that this feeling seems to be very localized. You don't have to go very far away from Caledonia before people seem to have resisted changing the opinions of their lifetime. In Cayuga, a town only 15 minutes away, the feeling seems to be about 50/50. In Binbrook, another 15 minutes closer to Hamilton from Cayuga it seems to be about 1 in 3. Of the 2, they don't seem to believe that the "papers" are all that accurate anyway!

In Hamilton itself, not as many people as you would think are even aware of what's been happening!

To me, this only proves that we Canadians don't seem to easily change our perspectives. What's more, we don't really seem to have a strong sense of unity with each other. An New York cabbie might read his morning paper and be upset over seeing how someone's rights were trampled in California. A Canadian in Vancouver might read about Caledonia and he'll think "The papers must be exaggerating! And those people must have done something to ask for it!"

Oh well...

Edited November 18, 2009 by Wild Bill

[Michael Hardner]

Well, he won't get your vote but he might get mine! So they cancel out. The real question is how many Ontario voters feel like Argus or like you!

Have you even heard Harris' name mentioned since Stockwell Day made a run for the Alliance leadership ?

While you may not agree with the degree of Argus' sentiment, it's hard to deny that there is a populist tinge to the situation. Many Canadians, particularly in rural areas like Caledonia, have been raised to appreciate and respect civic "rules". I live not too far away and have known many people from the area nearly all my life. When you talk to them about how people like Brown and Chatwell were left with zero police protection or support you see that they were literally shocked to their core! All their lives they believed that the police would come when called, the Fire Department would be there when needed and that while politicians were all a shifty bunch nonetheless when push came to shove they supported people's rights and freedoms.

Leaving the Harris question out of it - yes I think that there is something serious happening here. I have visited the area and the Ontario government doesn't seem to be acting to mitigate the absolute loss of faith the locals have in the system. This is a very bad thing.

Whichever side you take on the actual conflict, the breakdown of the system in this respect is something that we all need to pay attention to. Vigilantism has already reared its head and the government's response has been to shut down, avoid, and sweep under the rug.

The local newspaper constantly has coverage of this while in Toronto we hear nothing.

While downtown Toronto may have some academic, ivory tower perspective to the citizens of Caledonia it looks like McGuinty has callously abandoned them! Anyone who thinks differently should go and ask at any Tim Hortons in the town. I have! You will get differing opinions about native land claims but the feeling seems almost unanimous that the townsfolk have been thrown to the wolves by McGuinty and particularly the OPP. No one seems to have bought the line that McGuinty didn't tell the OPP what to do.

Agreed. ( I wrote the previous paragraph before reading this. )

The good news for McGuinty is that this feeling seems to be very localized. You don't have to go very far away from Caledonia before people seem to have resisted changing the opinions of their lifetime. In Cayuga, a town only 15 minutes away, the feeling seems to be about 50/50. In Binbrook, another 15 minutes closer to Hamilton from Cayuga it seems to be about 1 in 3. Of the 2, they don't seem to believe that the "papers" are all that accurate anyway!

In Hamilton itself, not as many people as you would think are even aware of what's been happening!

To me, this only proves that we Canadians don't seem to easily change our perspectives. What's more, we don't really seem to have a strong sense of unity with each other. An New York cabbie might read his morning paper and be upset over seeing how someone's rights were trampled in California. A Canadian in Vancouver might read about Caledonia and he'll think "The papers must be exaggerating! And those people must have done something to ask for it!"

Oh well...

I don't really think the US/Canada situation is all that different, but other than that I agree that McGuinty is playing the situation politically. By the province's own account, this is a federal matter but the security matter is provincial and they need to be more up front about it, and respond to the concerns of the community.

[Argus]

There's an odd dichotomy at play there, I think. People "like" strong leaders, yet leaders like McGuinty and Chretien will continue in office for many terms while Harris doesn't appear to be allowed back into politics at all.

More properly, there's no evidence Harris has any interest.

Thankfully, we haven't had a Mike Harris type prime minister mismanaging the country as he did the province. But that's for another thread.

Mike Harris and Margaret Thatcher types are a response to years of spineless, incompetent mismanagement, and that is exactly what Ontario has been enduring under McGuinty. Anyone who can defend McGuinty by decrying Harris for mismanagement hasn't got the first clue about the problems Ontario is currently experiencing under this government and would be best advised not to offer up his ignorance for public consumption.