HST Bad News for Conservatives

[madmax]

Tax'em all, Quebec needs more money.

You lost me.....???

[Jack Weber]

I can't speak for BC,but in Ontario things are beginning to heat up.The provincial Liberals,not only will not agree to public hearings on the matter,but waste opposition days by giving all the debate time to the opposition alone!In otherwords,they won't provide any rebuttals to opposition claims.They then take all the time they can to spin this in some sort of positive light!

1.If it's such good idea,why not hold public hearings to make the positive case about he HST?It could'nt hurt if it is so wonderful.

2.If it's so great,why are we being bribed by our own money?

If this is truly going to modernize Ontario's tax stucture,as McGuinty says,one would think the public would be given ample time to discuss the issue.

Let's see...Bribed with our own money and any debate by the public on the matter is squelched by the party in power.And virtually no discussion of specifics from the Harper Tories...

Does this not smack of a scheme cooked up in some back room by Flaharty and Duncan?

Does this not smack of taxation without representation?

[Smallc]

Does this not smack of taxation without representation?

Uhhh...no. You have representatives, even if they aren't doing what you want.

[Jack Weber]

Uhhh...no. You have representatives, even if they aren't doing what you want.

Really??

Why the fear of the public if it's as wonderful as the McGuinty gov't says it is?Why squelch debate?

And I said it "smacks of",in otherwords...It's not exactly like.

[Smallc]

Why the fear of the public if it's as wonderful as the McGuinty gov't says it is?

Because people as a whole are often angry and knee jerk. It may be good, but many have already made up their minds, and so you end up with a situation like the healthcare debate in the US that the government can't possibly win.

[madmax]

Really??

Why the fear of the public if it's as wonderful as the McGuinty gov't says it is?Why squelch debate?

I think it would be in McGuinty's best interest to have a debate. Then it would be exposed to more of the public all the pressure behind the scenes by the Conservative government pushing and prodding them into this tax scheme.

Everytime the Conservatives get into government they bring Ontarians a new tax.

[Dave_ON]

Really??

Why the fear of the public if it's as wonderful as the McGuinty gov't says it is?Why squelch debate?

And I said it "smacks of",in otherwords...It's not exactly like.

I agree there should be some public debate on the matter but in all honesty will it really do any good? When is anybody ever happy about a new tax? Let's be honest we all have the opinion that, in general, the government is trying to screw us over regardless of who is in power. Taxes are always a very sticky situation for any government to address, but they are none the less absolutely necessary and will be implemented regardless of public opinion.

What would convince you that this is a good thing? Why do you think it isn't? What would be a solution you would suggest as an alternative? I'm not being critical, as a fellow Ontarian I'm quite interested to hear your PoV on this.

[Dave_ON]

I think it would be in McGuinty's best interest to have a debate. Then it would be exposed to more of the public all the pressure behind the scenes by the Conservative government pushing and prodding them into this tax scheme.

Everytime the Conservatives get into government they bring Ontarians a new tax.

Agreed a debate should be held. But given the economic situation in Ontario something has to be done to address the shortfalls.

I know we've had the income vs. consumption tax debate before and I know you're dead set against a consumption tax rise. But honestly what are the alternatives? Cutbacks deeper than what will likely come or income tax hikes? Ontario has higher consumption tax but lower than most other provinces income tax. Sure Income tax may seem the solution on the surface but given the job losses in Ontario it would need to be a significant hike to make up the shortfall.

[madmax]

Agreed a debate should be held.

Of course, if we here on MLW can debate the issue, certainly our government can. And quite frankly, people like Riverwind yourself and others are capable of giving very strong arguments. They are good to hear and fleshout. I also know that there are those here who can advocate against this tax with good arguments.

So, why can't our government?

That said, there is some recent stuff I have seen, and I am not certain to its accuracy, that for every new dollar in HST revenue, there is a $1.06 in tax cuts. So, then the argument gets split on the PRO HST side.

Those whom believe the new tax will generate extra revenues that government needs, vs those who believe that the HST is the new mode of taxation with a long term goal of eliminating income tax.

Infact, If I follow this out, populist like Jerry Fortin are against the HST, yet if the situation were to permit itself he would be for a consumption tax on roids if there was no income tax.

There are pros and cons, just as there are items that should and shouldn't be taxed.

I like debate, I like forums and I also agree with whomever suggested public meetings and forums could get hijacked like the Health care town halls in the US.

Democracy and the democratic process are always at some sort of risk. However, that doesn't mean that public input or a public debate on the issue shouldn't occur.

Particulary now and I want it known which parties and MPs and MPPs (MLAs) are supporting this tax and which ones aren't.

I want to know this before they cast their votes. I want this known before McGuinty force feeds us this tax.

One thing that is clear and I very much appreciate on these forums.

No one here has advocated that a Tax Increase in the form of the HST will create 600,000 jobs.

Yet McGuinty is floating this out there because unemployment is through the roof in Ontario and they are hoping that people accept this, hook, line and sinker.

If I can argue with Argus, the Government can handle a public forum.

And yes, this part of the discussion does belong in the Provincial thread. However, I expect come Federal Budget time, a debate would be appreciated by All Canadians on why Ontario should receive $4.3 Billion while the federal government is running the highest deficit Canadians have ever seen.

[madmax]

double post

Edited November 26, 2009 by madmax

[Jack Weber]

I agree there should be some public debate on the matter but in all honesty will it really do any good? When is anybody ever happy about a new tax? Let's be honest we all have the opinion that, in general, the government is trying to screw us over regardless of who is in power. Taxes are always a very sticky situation for any government to address, but they are none the less absolutely necessary and will be implemented regardless of public opinion.

What would convince you that this is a good thing? Why do you think it isn't? What would be a solution you would suggest as an alternative? I'm not being critical, as a fellow Ontarian I'm quite interested to hear your PoV on this.

Of course no one wants to be taxed.It would be a wonderful world if we did'nt need taxes,but we do...

To convince me that this would be a good idea would be to show me that this would truly create the 600,000 jobs McGuinty says it will.I think that's a lie of epic proportions,but perhaps I'm wrong.Another way to convince me would to show me that my money will remain in my pocket longer.That is ceratinly not going to happen with this,even with the income tax cuts that are coming with the HST.

I simply ask,if this is so wonderful,why are we being bribed with our own money and only for a finite period of time?This smacks of a backroom deal cooked up by the provincial and federal gov't to try to recoup some of the money lost to any stimulus plans.It also represents a tax shift off of business and onto the consumer.This is after at least 15 years of neo-liberal economic policies from both levels of gov't that gave away billions of the publics dollars in the form of corporate tax cuts.

[Dave_ON]

Of course no one wants to be taxed.It would be a wonderful world if we did'nt need taxes,but we do...

I simply ask,if this is so wonderful,why are we being bribed with our own money and only for a finite period of time?This smacks of a backroom deal cooked up by the provincial and federal gov't to try to recoup some of the money lost to any stimulus plans.It also represents a tax shift off of business and onto the consumer.This is after at least 15 years of neo-liberal economic policies from both levels of gov't that gave away billions of the publics dollars in the form of corporate tax cuts.

Fair enough but what alternatives do you suggest? No government would ever implement a tax unless it was absolutely necessary. That's not a way to win an election, unless you're promising to axe the tax and then subsequently keep it, however I digress. I may be cynical when it comes to politicians but I must concede that if the government is doing this it must be because it is completely necessary. Given that a tax restructure is necessary what are our alternatives. Really there are few, increase income tax which is more deplorable IMNHO or deep cuts in services. Again I'm not being critical, but in all honesty if you have a viable alternative please let us hear it, or better yet let you’re MP and MPP know.

[madmax]

I just read that the Conservative Government is going to use the support of the BQ to pass the Harper Sales Tax.

I read a short comment afterwards that gave me a little chuckle.

The Conservative and Quebec MPs are going to determine the fate of the people in Ontario and British Columbia.

That's right, the Conservatives are allowing the Quebec MPs to determine joe/jane tax payers future.

Isn't that special.

It is time for a real debate. Get the Conservatives to tell the public they support the HST. It would get the Liberals to stop "skating" as Bob Rae puts it. It should have some repercussions for those Conservative MPs in Ontario and Quebec. Those same Conservatives who love to fear monger with the BQ. Now Conservative MPs in Ontario are happy to have the BQ as allies to tax Ontarians.

Conservative spin doctors did a good job of blackmarking BQ MPs. Conservatives are full of ..... it.

Edited November 29, 2009 by madmax

[Smallc]

The Conservative and Quebec MPs are going to determine the fate of the people in Ontario and British Columbia.

Actually, the bill is about all provinces that do not currently use the HST.

[madmax]

Actually, the bill is about all provinces that do not currently use the HST.

The BQ want the Federal Monies and they are willing to snooker the people of Ontario and BC.

The Conservative Government should not be funding bribe monies to the Provinces.

The CPC and the BQ are for the HST. The People of Ontario are not. I doubt the people of BC want it either.

I do know that I have talked to many small businesses within a triangle of Chamber of Commerce in the the regions and the bottomline is they are not interested in this new Tax.

[Jack Weber]

The BQ want the Federal Monies and they are willing to snooker the people of Ontario and BC.

The Conservative Government should not be funding bribe monies to the Provinces.

The CPC and the BQ are for the HST. The People of Ontario are not. I doubt the people of BC want it either.

I do know that I have talked to many small businesses within a triangle of Chamber of Commerce in the the regions and the bottomline is they are not interested in this new Tax.

Here,here!!!!

Is'nt it interesting that seperatists are OK when the Tories want to pass a tax measure????

Interesting...If some in the business community are'nt interested in this,and it would fair to assume most of the populous of each of the affected provinces are'nt either,who is interested in this and what their motivations?

I mean,we have been told this is about business competativeness and we are being bribed with our own money?

Something stinks about this thing!!!

[Wilber]

Interesting how a party that claims to have no interests outside of Quebec's is willing to meddle in taxation and sovereignty issues that effect only other provinces. Even worse, it seems the government will rely on that support in order to bring those changes about.

[madmax]

The Conservatives have decided to ram through the HST bill in 48 hours. The intent is to keep the Harper Sales Tax stink off the government. Ironically Ignatieff appears to be the last one holding the rotten egg.

[Wilber]

The Conservatives have decided to ram through the HST bill in 48 hours. The intent is to keep the Harper Sales Tax stink off the government. Ironically Ignatieff appears to be the last one holding the rotten egg.

Considering the opposition to this tax in BC, one has to ask who federal MP's represent, their constituents or the provincial government. If is the latter, who needs them.

I'm thinking the NDP will do very well in BC when the next federal election comes around.

[madmax]

Considering the opposition to this tax in BC, one has to ask who federal MP's represent, their constituents or the provincial government. If is the latter, who needs them.

I'm thinking the NDP will do very well in BC when the next federal election comes around.

If I were a CPC or LPC MP in BC, I would be worried if the MP won by under 2000 votes. Easily enough anger will exist to shift that many vote and there is only one party to shift too. Also, the voters will take their anger on the tax increase upon the first election coming, regardless of Provincial/Federal jurisdiction. I think its fair to say that a Federal Election is coming first.

On a side note, I do believe debate would actually help the parties that want to implement the tax. Look at the skillfull arguments from the pundits on MLW. But that gives people a chance to understand why the governments are going forward.

What's the rush???

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Because the tax grab is huge and the public pain will be felt from the date of its implementation well past the next provincial or federal election. The thinking is to get it over and done with hoping that the next big thing will dwarf it. That begs the question of whats the next big thing!

[Wilber]

Because the tax grab is huge and the public pain will be felt from the date of its implementation well past the next provincial or federal election. The thinking is to get it over and done with hoping that the next big thing will dwarf it. That begs the question of whats the next big thing!

I don't know, folks will get a reminder every time they buy a coffee at Tims.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I don't know, folks will get a reminder every time they buy a coffee at Tims.

That is my point. Get it done and get it over with, then bet that there will be something to take your mind off of the pain.

[Wilber]

That is my point. Get it done and get it over with, then bet that there will be something to take your mind off of the pain.

Don't bet on it, the last time a party lied to get elected in BC (not just about this but their bullshit budget as well) they were reduced to two seats in the next election. I doubt the Liberals will get hit that bad but this will cost them. I have never voted NDP and probably never will but I won't vote for people who have shown themselves to be dishonest in such a blatant manner. I don't think I am the only one.

[madmax]

I don't know, folks will get a reminder every time they buy a coffee at Tims.

LOL

The Ontario NDP made flyers with coffee cups and newspapers and a few other items. These flyers were so effective and highlighting just that fact. That people would get reminded with each Tims, who was responsible for the tax. The Ontario Liberals after months of abuse, backed off on Coffee, Donuts, and newspapers, because they had the most populist appeal to create anger.

The Ontario Liberals beleive this is effective damage control.

In the meantime, Is BC going to tax Coffee and Donuts and TEA?

I hear HSTea parties are gathering steam. The HST may come, but the governments will go.

That said, Keith Martin is so scared about losing his seat, he is trying to save his own ass rather then the public who will pay the price. Fact is, both Parties Martin has belonged to, support the HST. This is a person with nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

Will he risk becoming an independant once again?