A Canadian citizen is deemed guilty

bjre · November 11, 2009

[ Quote ] Although Nealon said Monday that people "certainly" have the right to refuse entry to the police, Sapiano told CBC News that those who deny police entry will come under suspicion.

The police service's methods mean "a Canadian citizen is deemed guilty until police are satisfied you are innocent," he said. "And a Canadian citizen who insists on exercising the rights of [a] Canadian citizen is immediately deemed a suspect."

Another criminal lawyer, James Morton, said the police force's request of residents didn't amount to "a tremendous intrusion" if there is some reason to believe Makhniashvili is alive.

"And certainly if you say no, that doesn't mean you're going to be subject to enormous police scrutiny," he told CBC News. "But it will mean that you'll be somebody the police will look at more carefully." [ /Quote ]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/11/10/mariam-search-police361.html

Edited November 11, 2009 by bjre

Michael Hardner · November 11, 2009

The Holly Jones investigation used this technique and made an arrest in the case.

bjre · November 11, 2009

The Holly Jones investigation used this technique and made an arrest in the case.

If you insist kill all people in the world, the murders will sure be killed. What damage it will caused?

Keepitsimple · November 11, 2009

We all have a lot of protection against unwarranted searches and intrusion into our lives. If Mariam was your daughter - and there was reason to think she was still alive and being held in the neighbourhood wouldn't you want the authorities to try everything within the rule of law to find her? This was not a fishing expedition for drugs - it was an attempt to find a human being whose life is probably hanging by a thread. I have no problem with being asked.

Michael Hardner · November 11, 2009

Bjre,

If you insist kill all people in the world, the murders will sure be killed. What damage it will caused?

Yes, that is for sure. What damage will it cause ? Gee, bjre, I guess the answer is: all the people in the world would be dead.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your ridiculous example. I guess it's that killing all the people in the world is a bad approach to a murder investigation. Not exactly a bold assertion, but a strawman needs to be built little by little, I suppose.

bjre · November 11, 2009

If Mariam was your daughter - and there was reason to think she was still alive and being held in the neighbourhood wouldn't you want the authorities to try everything within the rule of law to find her?

I like this kind of thinking method. Are you grown up in Canada. I guess you are an immigrant too. probably from east Asia that has affected by the culture of Confucius morals, that is normally not include in the western style of education and thinking.

If Canadian politicians knows how to use this kind of thinking that put himself into others situation, and if they know "what you don't want done to you, don't do to others", they might be able to have a slightly moral integrity.

M.Dancer · November 11, 2009

There are a lot of differences between this police conduct in Canada and say..umm....Red China.

1)Police methods in Mariam search criticized

Try and do that in the media in China

2)that people "certainly" have the right to refuse entry

again...tell the Chinese police they can't come in...

Anacoluthe · November 11, 2009

I would say that it depend a lot of your attitude toward the police.

I once receive the visit of the police at my door because they were looking for a runaway teen girl and they asked to come in and I refused. They find it strange and insist at first, but I stay firm, polite, courteous and cooperative simply explaining that I was alone at home. They asked their questions and asked to call them if I learned anything but they didn't suspect me or anything like that.

I'm sure that if you are very hostile and somewhat aggressive toward them, then it can quickly become worst... of course... they are human beeing after all.

eyeball · November 11, 2009

We all have a lot of protection against unwarranted searches and intrusion into our lives. If Mariam was your daughter - and there was reason to think she was still alive and being held in the neighbourhood wouldn't you want the authorities to try everything within the rule of law to find her? This was not a fishing expedition for drugs - it was an attempt to find a human being whose life is probably hanging by a thread. I have no problem with being asked.

Over the next two to three weeks, police hope to canvas 6,000 homes in an area between Bathurst Street, Eglinton Avenue, Shalamar Boulevard and Chaplin Crescent in hopes of finding her.
"The police will keep knocking at your door until they can identify that you are there behind the door," Det.-Sgt Dan Nealon advised residents Monday.

6000 homes seems over the top. This may not be a real fishing expedition but they are definitely bound to encounter some by-catch. I'm a real fisherman and take it from me by-catch issues never go away and what often happens is that fishermen eventually find ways to utilize it.

Perhaps police could scan buildings with some kind of heat detection equipment that is attuned to a person's body heat and size etc and simply ask to speak or see each person the scan detects to account for them. If they plan on knocking on every door anyway they'll eventually be able to account for everyone.

M.Dancer · November 11, 2009

Perhaps police could scan buildings with some kind of heat detection equipment that is attuned to a person's body heat and size etc .

This is the Toronto Police, not the Star Trek Police

eyeball · November 11, 2009

This is the Toronto Police, not the Star Trek Police

The Xaver 800 provides 'Through-Wall Vision' to change the dynamics of your urban operation.

Link

Thermal imaging by the way is also routinely used to detect people in collapsed buildings.

M.Dancer · November 11, 2009

Link

Thermal imaging by the way is also routinely used to detect people in collapsed buildings.

Doesn't say anything about attuning it to body size, I think you have the science fiction brochure...I may be wrong though, feel free to call them at their head office...

Israel

[email protected]

+972 73 7172333

Aren't they on your don't trade list?

Oh well, door to door it is.

Hydraboss · November 11, 2009

I like this kind of thinking method. Are you grown up in Canada. I guess you are an immigrant too. probably from east Asia that has affected by the culture of Confucius morals, that is normally not include in the western style of education and thinking.

If Canadian politicians knows how to use this kind of thinking that put himself into others situation, and if they know "what you don't want done to you, don't do to others", they might be able to have a slightly moral integrity.

Let's see...

Canada

1) <police> "Can we come in? We're looking for a missing person.>

2) <you> "No. I don't want you coming in.>

3) <police> "Fine then. We'll be back."

4) <police get search warrant> "Open up. We have a warrant to search the premises.>

5) <you> "You'll hear from my lawyer!>

6) <police search the house and leave>

7) <you talking to press> "They should have no right to search my house. I did nothing wrong! I'm going to sue!"

8) <you talking to judge> "They were aggressive and rude."

9) <judge talking to police department defence lawyer> "I find in favor of the plaintiff in the amount of $50,000."

Communist China

1) <police> "Open up. We're looking for a missing person.>

2) <you> "No. I don't want you coming in.>

3) <bang>

4) <police to your new widow> "Open up. We're coming in.>

5) <you're new widow> "No. I don't want you coming in."

6) <bang>

7) <police to your newly-orphaned children> "Move out of the way. We're searching the premises."

8) <total lack of reporting in the press>

9) <government never has to comment, and if they did, they deny it>

Yup. See? Same amount of steps, only Canada is unfair.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Hydraboss

punked · November 11, 2009

If Mariam was your daughter - and there was reason to think she was still alive and being held in the neighbourhood wouldn't you want the authorities to try everything within the rule of law to find her?

If there was a reason they thought she was in my neighborhood I would want them to get out a phone call a judge tell them the reason and get a warrant it takes two fucking minutes. If there is no reason why they thought it and they couldn't get a warrant chances are they are just guessing.

M.Dancer · November 11, 2009

If there was a reason they thought she was in my neighborhood I would want them to get out a phone call a judge tell them the reason and get a warrant it takes two fucking minutes. If there is no reason why they thought it and they couldn't get a warrant chances are they are just guessing.

So you think it takes 2 minutes to get 6000 warrants?

You realize they are not asking to search your house?

For the record, I live a couple blocks away from her school, and I made a search of the property looking for anything unusual....but then again I feel it is my duty as a citizen, a member of my community, and a human.

Do you have some particular grudge against teenage girls or the Police or both?

punked · November 11, 2009

So you think it takes 2 minutes to get 6000 warrants?

You realize they are not asking to search your house?

For the record, I live a couple blocks away from her school, and I made a search of the property looking for anything unusual....but then again I feel it is my duty as a citizen, a member of my community, and a human.

Do you have some particular grudge against teenage girls or the Police or both?

I have a grudge against warrant less searches. If would tell them it would fine to search my house but anyone who says no should be respected. Section Eight of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects all individuals from unreasonable search and seizure that is the law if the police don't like to follow the law why should they expect Canadian citizens to do the same. I know you don't respect the law like I do but you don't have to be so brazen about it.

M.Dancer · November 12, 2009

I have a grudge against warrant less searches. If would tell them it would fine to search my house but anyone who says no should be respected. Section Eight of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects all individuals from unreasonable search and seizure that is the law if the police don't like to follow the law why should they expect Canadian citizens to do the same. I know you don't respect the law like I do but you don't have to be so brazen about it.

They are searching...they are peeking....

"The police will keep knocking at your door until they can identify that you are there behind the door," Det.-Sgt Dan Nealon advised residents Monday.
"We're also going to be asking that we be invited inside your home for just a quick peek into areas of your home to ensure that there is no evidence in relation to this case with respect to you."

Just keep your kidnapping porn off the coffee table and the handcuffs and bongs in the closet and you should be okay.

Because quite frankly, the teenager's life is more important than your misguided sense of privacy and civil liberty.

November 12, 2009

If someone in the area being searched has her, after being warned that the police will be knocking on doors and entering people's houses/apartments, I would think they would be smart enough to have her where a simple peek into the house wouldn't expose her, so seems to me a "peek around" would really serve no purpose. I would think the police would actually have to conduct a pretty thorough search in order to turn up anything.

Shouldn't dogs be able to pick up her scent?

punked · November 12, 2009

They are searching...they are peeking....

Just keep your kidnapping porn off the coffee table and the handcuffs and bongs in the closet and you should be okay.

Because quite frankly, the teenager's life is more important than your misguided sense of privacy and civil liberty.

You are making excuses because the police can't do their jobs. They have no clues, no ideas, and instead just want to look in every Canadians home. If the police did their job right and acted like police they should not have to look in everyones home. If they stopped wasting time and man power trying to knock on everyones door maybe they could find this girl.

Like it or not Dance Section Eight of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects all individuals from unreasonable search and seizure is the law. I know you hate the law but I expect our police force not only to enforce he law but to operate by it. I will not give up my liberties for securities. I have nothing to hid doesn't mean I want the police putting a camera in my bedroom or listening to my phone calls either. Good thing we have the Charter, the law which you hate.

M.Dancer · November 12, 2009

You are making excuses because the police can't do their jobs. They have no clues, no ideas, and instead just want to look in every Canadians home. If the police did their job right and acted like police they should not have to look in everyones home. If they stopped wasting time and man power trying to knock on everyones door maybe they could find this girl.

Like it or not Dance Section Eight of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects all individuals from unreasonable search and seizure is the law. I know you hate the law but I expect our police force not only to enforce he law but to operate by it. I will not give up my liberties for securities. I have nothing to hid doesn't mean I want the police putting a camera in my bedroom or listening to my phone calls either. Good thing we have the Charter, the law which you hate.

Like it or not, they aren't searching....is this november 11th fake outrage day?

I think so....

1) instead just want to look in every Canadians home

...no, they are asking permission to peak in the homes in a specific neighbourhood looking for a young teenage girl.

2) If the police did their job right and acted like police

...that certainly sounds right...not sure what you mean and I bet you don't know either..who ever heard of police goimg door to door...

3) Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects all individuals from unreasonable search and seizure is the law.

...no one is being searched, either resonable or unreasonably. The police are asking permision though....

4)Good thing we have the Charter, the law which you hate.

...yes of course...

Cue the violins for more fake outrage....

M.Dancer · November 12, 2009

.

Shouldn't dogs be able to pick up her scent?

After this long?

I think as they say in the pulp westerns, The scent is cold.

M.Dancer · November 12, 2009

I would think they would be smart enough to have her where a simple peek into the house wouldn't expose her, so seems to me a "peek around" would really serve no purpose.

Well, you can't not visit because you assume they migt be smart, they also might be dumber than a bag of hammers.

I think instead they want to eyeball the person who is acting a little too something whenthe police come...too helpful, too nervous, too curt, too weird.

Might lead to nothing, or it might not. No stone unturned.

punked · November 12, 2009

Well, you can't not visit because you assume they migt be smart, they also might be dumber than a bag of hammers.

I think instead they want to eyeball the person who is acting a little too something whenthe police come...too helpful, too nervous, too curt, too weird.

Might lead to nothing, or it might not. No stone unturned.

Or they might run into some a civil libertarian who does not like the intrusion and acts odd. Throws off their investigation through focusing on an innocent person and ruins two lives. No stone unturned.

Edited November 12, 2009 by punked

M.Dancer · November 12, 2009

Or they might run into some a civil libertarian who does not like the intrusion and acts odd.

They might but this is a pretty well established neighbourhood, most people habe children, act mature adult manner and can empathize with other parents so the chances that even a civil libertarian acting like a spoiled selfish punk is remote.

If one does though, good for him, he has my entire the support. And so do the police who will use the extent of their rights to inspect the crap out of the moron.

punked · November 12, 2009

They might but this is a pretty well established neighbourhood, most people habe children, act mature adult manner and can empathize with other parents so the chances that even a civil libertarian acting like a spoiled selfish punk is remote.

If one does though, good for him, he has my entire the support. And so do the police who will use the extent of their rights to inspect the crap out of the moron.

Guilty until proven innocent. Glade the charter is working so well. If they do "inspect the crap out of the moron" it is again a waste of time and money that could have been spent doing real police work to find this girl. But what you care if she is found as long as our civil rights are dismantled in the process.

Here is a news flash for you Civil Libertarians have kids too. Although they can be your next group to villianize for sure.