Ford closing St Thomas ON

[Topaz]

Ford is closing the St Thomas plant and 1500 families will directly hit jobless with another 6000-8000 families in the region. I'm sure these families won't have anything good to say about the provincial -Libs and the Feds Tories, when elections come. The Crown Victoria cop car will be what....a foreign small car? I think both Lib and Tory parties aren't doing enough to keep jobs here. The Tories keep make their FREE Trade agreeements and more jobs leave Canada, so much for reducing the corporate taxes to keep them here. http://www.thestar.com/business/article/71...mbly-plant?bn=1

[madmax]

This has been in the works for sometime. Its not good for the families.

What do you want the government to do?

Don't worry, Ford got their tax cuts, and the employees will all be offered retraining on the hopes they won't take it up.

There is a discussion going around in circles right now.

Last Spring....

Diane Finley was stated that EI was lucrative and she wouldn't pay people to stay home on the couch. Of course there are far more out of work then jobs available.

So, government has gone superbig on retraining. And then this shocking discovery. Retraining costs a pile of money and they really don't have it.

So, the government has discovered that people not able to find work and on the couch will take them up on retraining and break the bank.

So, now the government is going to restrict training because people are going to school instead of trying to look for work. And they believe it is better to pay people to stay home and collect EI rather then retrain them. Ofcourse only a small small percentage are able to take retraining, do to personal circumstances, or seats available in facilities. What do you do when the courses you want to take are full for the next two years as you find you are competeting with highschool grads for the same openings.

But retraining sounds great to those of us working. It sounds like we are taking care of the poor stupid unemployed people. The only problem now is that we afford to retrain 2% of those laid off let alone the other 98% and the EI fund is dry.

ST. Thomas is going to be in difficulty and quite frankly, its not only where the government has been, but the rank and file of union shops have been living in a bubble while they work and other lose their jobs.

It is the working rank and file who have to stand up. And they are not doing anything until it is them and by then it is way, way, way , way too late.

Manegement knows what is happening and cannot prevent or change these corporate decisions made in another country. They want to see more action from workers on the shop floor getting involved and speaking up.

I don't see it.... and if the politicians don't see it, and rank and file don't care.....

Well then, the jobs will continue to leave, as they have been since the CPC and Ontario Liberals came into power.

[Smallc]

The Crown Victoria is old, and out of date, and it isn't worth a great deal of investment. Dodge and Chevrolet both have police cars available, and Ford likely will too. It simply won't be a CV built in STAP.

[Smallc]

The Crown Victoria is old, and out of date, and it isn't worth a great deal of investment. Dodge and Chevrolet both have police cars available, and Ford likely will too. It simply won't be a CV built in STAP.

[madmax]

The Crown Victoria is old, and out of date, and it isn't worth a great deal of investment. Dodge and Chevrolet both have police cars available, and Ford likely will too. It simply won't be a CV built in STAP.

I am a Mopar fan. However, the Crown Vic is one of the best service vehicles going. Comparing maintenance costs the Crown Vic surprised the heck out of me on savings. I had no idea how robust this car was.

As for its commercial appeal. It never appealed to me.

[Wild Bill]

So, government has gone superbig on retraining. And then this shocking discovery. Retraining costs a pile of money and they really don't have it.

So, the government has discovered that people not able to find work and on the couch will take them up on retraining and break the bank.

But retraining sounds great to those of us working. It sounds like we are taking care of the poor stupid unemployed people. The only problem now is that we afford to retrain 2% of those laid off let alone the other 98% and the EI fund is dry.

Retraining is a crock! What good is it if NO field is hiring!

Most factories have had an aging workforce for some years now. When they go under they left large numbers of older workers out on the street. Retraining sounds great but when they get their certificates they rarely find different companies actively hiring large numbers. Even if they do get an interview if they're over 50 odds are they won't get hired. It may be illegal to age discriminate but it's the reality out there. Has anyone seen any stats, positive or negative, about the success of retraining in placing these workers in new jobs? We hear a lot about the retraining programs but diddleysquat about the results.

It's just another facade to look like governments are actually doing something. More "Liberal" solutions. You know - "It doesn't have to work as long as we can say we've got one!"

[bush_cheney2004]

I am a Mopar fan. However, the Crown Vic is one of the best service vehicles going. Comparing maintenance costs the Crown Vic surprised the heck out of me on savings. I had no idea how robust this car was.

As for its commercial appeal. It never appealed to me.

The Crown Vics and other variants (Panther platform) have a very large installed base for police agencies, commercial taxi fleets, and other government / private business. It also enjoys a huge used vehicle market because of the very attributes you describe.

Just the sight of a Crown Vic makes speeding motorists think twice.

Edited October 31, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[DFCaper]

The only thing the government should do is ban national unions. If the CAW didn't protect the lazy and campaign against everything to do with efficiency (robots, LEAN, etc), then maybe th Big 3 would be expanding operations like the non-union import brands.

CAW= Closed Another Workplace

[Smallc]

No one is expanding operations right now (except for possibly Hyundai). Even Toyota is losing money...and even they needed money from the Japanese government.

[punked]

The only thing the government should do is ban national unions. If the CAW didn't protect the lazy and campaign against everything to do with efficiency (robots, LEAN, etc), then maybe th Big 3 would be expanding operations like the non-union import brands.

CAW= Closed Another Workplace

You win the dumbest post of the day award.

Your issues is with the unions who have almost the same over head of the non unionized Toyota, and Hyundai counter parts in north America instead of the horrible mistakes made by the big wigs who run those corporations. Good job way to buy the spin.

[madmax]

Retraining is a crock! What good is it if NO field is hiring!

Most factories have had an aging workforce for some years now. When they go under they left large numbers of older workers out on the street. Retraining sounds great but when they get their certificates they rarely find different companies actively hiring large numbers. Even if they do get an interview if they're over 50 odds are they won't get hired. It may be illegal to age discriminate but it's the reality out there. Has anyone seen any stats, positive or negative, about the success of retraining in placing these workers in new jobs? We hear a lot about the retraining programs but diddleysquat about the results.

It's just another facade to look like governments are actually doing something. More "Liberal" solutions. You know - "It doesn't have to work as long as we can say we've got one!"

WildBill.

We have to stop agreeing like this....

Seriously, you have hit the nail on the head. Everything you have put forth above is easily verifiable to anyone who takes the time to look into situations that you describe above.

[madmax]

The Crown Vics and other variants (Panther platform) have a very large installed base for police agencies, commercial taxi fleets, and other government / private business. It also enjoys a huge used vehicle market because of the very attributes you describe.

Just the sight of a Crown Vic makes speeding motorists think twice.

Ah shit. I have to agree with you in this thread too...

I forgot your Auto background.

Right.... Taxis too. Taxi companies find the Crown Vic to be one of the very best.

Oh yeah, you get a Crown Vic on your tail and a surprise is coming if you think you are going to pull distance while speeding.

I just find the car.....erm.... Ugly.

[madmax]

The only thing the government should do is ban national unions. If the CAW didn't protect the lazy and campaign against everything to do with efficiency (robots, LEAN, etc), then maybe th Big 3 would be expanding operations like the non-union import brands.

CAW= Closed Another Workplace

While I find the acronym worthy of industry today. The rest of your comments is ignorant bunk. I have many companies that have been lean producers for over 15 years. Others who have made the change to lean in the past 2 years. It makes little difference in the final decision regarding the closure of an operation. I am currently working with a Toyoto company that is moving its lean production operation to an American Location where the current plant has not implemented any Lean, 5S or 6 Sigma or any program of anykind ever. It is also not unionized. There are other factors involved and they are political. And this is one company, that when the work is contracted out, I am not certain if it will be a lean operation or not. Lean is not always cheap. Lean is sometimes mistaken for bottomline cuts, or the lowest common denominator and some of the more expensive changes are often bypassed, which can make more efficient long term benefits. This is left with management and COOs.

However, a significant part of my operations deal with India as much as other Asian countries. And if you pay attention to the current Ford Shutdown, it is because of a near nationwide strike (I use that term lightly as it is more like a rebellion) that happened.... in India.

If it were only so easy as the elimination of unions, then the problem would be the easiest fix in Canadian History.

However, this isn't Mythbusters, so you can continue to hold your opinion, just remember it is based upon no facts.

Again, in my Region since March of this year, I have seen the relocation of 12 operations of which 3 were unionized and 2 went out kicking and screaming, the other received a very golden handshake, while of the other 9 only one went down with any kind of fight.

The difference is at the time of closure, a Union is likely to get a better deal in the situation be it a bankruptcy manuever or a clean harmonious closure.

If its ugly, the Union will fight, if its ugly and non union, then the ability to organize a lockdown to receive anykind of severance has to be supported by the Middle management and usually the Branch Manager. Otherwise, expect the Police to eliminate the protest within hours.

I find your comments about robots to be funny.

I recall being in the various automotive facilities in southern ontario. Right, I saw no robots

Edited November 1, 2009 by madmax

[madmax]

No one is expanding operations right now (except for possibly Hyundai).

Hyundai had a huge bailout, massive bailout, to big to fail bailout some decades ago.

Even Toyota is losing money...and even they needed money from the Japanese government.

Shhh, they got Federal Canadian Money too. But the situation for Toyota was not bankruptcy, just visions of being the #1 automaker, heading into the worst recession, and a failure to recognize that when people lose their jobs, the last thing they buy is a new car.

Toyota made a strategic mistake, but not an unrecoverable one. It exposed some of the flaws in Toyotas decision making and the move away from producing vehicles that were already spoken for in the market.

[DFCaper]

Your issues is with the unions who have almost the same over head of the non unionized Toyota, and Hyundai counter parts in north America instead of the horrible mistakes made by the big wigs who run those corporations.

I used to be a CAW member (at a non-automotive plant) during a summer job. Things were slowing down, and the company proposed a workplace rule change that would allow us to work more OT, but not hire more employees (normal summer 3rd shift) The local workforce wanted it. The CAW head quarters seen there would be less members (meaning less money for the CAW Corp) so we had to breakaway from the union. That work place is now non-union and still open. My first experience with a "National Union" was one where the union was not looking out for neither the companies or it's union employees.

My issue is with National unions, not organized labour. Nothing is slimier than upper management in a company. Unfortunately, CAW is a company and it also has upper management. If you have ever worked at a CAW shop that wasn't the big 3, you better hope that the CAW does not want to make a point to the Big 3. Were I work now we had production, but it was a year where they were going to negotiation, they surprisingly went on strike here. That strike was the beginning of the end. I do production conceptualizing and planning for new assembly lines. They would always look at the cost to produce the new parts in either Canada(here) vs our "low cost" plants (Mexico/Brazil/Czech Rep/Korean/China). After the instability caused by the CAW strike, I got yelled at when ever I submitted a local cost. Canada no longer an option... hmmm

I recall being in the various automotive facilities in southern ontario. Right, I saw no robots

Are you saying that Unions supported the use of Robots?? heheh Yah right... Unions don't win all of there fights, but do fight efficiency as it may reduce there dues collections...

Lean Manufacturing is about eliminating waste and improving through put, efficiency etc. CAW website has a lot of information explaining why it is evil. That is not the only reason it is not successful. Management sees it as Lean budgets... which it's not. And Accountants always assume everything will work out well.. Which it doesn't. And Lean protects you better for the mistakes and problems down the road. Stupid Management and a closed minded National union = guaranteed failure.

I have worked at different union and non union plants. The union plants have a far worst attitude, and I think that attitude is destroying them under this highly competitive industry. If you never heard "It's not my F@%king Job", you never worked with a CAW plant. Well, all those guys who said that to me are now out of work. I seen us have low production numbers on a assembly line, but the union fought any use of a time study as it would identify the LAZY worker. As we all knew the problem, by the Union was fighting to protect the person. That plant has now closed as well. I have been involved in lines that were shipped to Mexico. A senior CAW member wanted to work on a line as the job was easy, but he worked so slow (always left his post) that engineering couldn't speed up as a result of this operator. I can go on for pages of how CAW protected workers soured and/or destroyed jobs. The CAW has a reputation and Windsor is now stuck with it. Autoliv is the only factory to startup within 100 miles of Windsor in 15 years, and after unionizing, most jobs were shipped to Mexico. Almost immediately. Yet when I drive by London, I see they started a bunch of factories in the last 10 years.

Notice Topaz, I never mentioned wages, as it's work place rules and protecting the lazy that kills factories for these big companies. I do agree it is Upper management who steered these companies down the wrong path. They focused to much on the short term profits and didn't prepare for the future. At least they can rest on the 8 figure bonuses they got for short term thinking.

Not against organized labour, just national unions like the CAW & CUPE. Ask a Windsor city worker if the 11 week strike to show TO city council they mean business was worth it.

Here is what a future Ford plant would look like.

http://apps.detnews.com/apps/multimedia/pl...dex.php?id=1189

http://detnews.com/article/20070822/AUTO01...-for-the-future

Definitely not a union shop with today's 1950's style National unions. It's just sad considering we have the most conscientious, skill workforce in this area, but don't seem to have a chance. And I have been to, and worked with operators and Engineers all over the world, including Germany, and we should not only compete, but win.

[Topaz]

One has to wonder what the manfacturing sector will look like in the future, especially the auto. It wouldn't surprise me if the companies try to break all the unions and then you have $10.00 jobs and little protection from the companies.

[fellowtraveller]

One has to wonder what the manfacturing sector will look like in the future, especially the auto. It wouldn't surprise me if the companies try to break all the unions and then you have $10.00 jobs and little protection from the companies.

I don't think there is much need to wonder..... it is increaqsingly a sunset industry for those manufacturers who cannot adapt to consumers needs and who cannot change the perception that their products are inferior.

I also think that the future for manufacturing is that supply and demand will determine what workers are paid.

Three choices:

- go hungry

- find other work

- move.

Sorry if that is harsh but that is how I see it.

[madmax]

I don't think there is much need to wonder..... it is increaqsingly a sunset industry for those manufacturers who cannot adapt to consumers needs and who cannot change the perception that their products are inferior.

Manufacturing is not a sunset industry. It is the largest employer and growth sector of any industry. Thus the boom and bust cycle, when its down, it tends to layoff more people because of its very nature and the domino effect. A nation with industry is strong, not weak.

Marketing also has alot to do with public perception as does myth. It worked in the past for various manufacturers and it works today. As most parts come from the same sources for all manufacturers, brand myth and loyalty is often comical.

This has always been growth in superior products, however, there is significant growth in inferior products. Few want to make a "White" product that lasts 30 to 50 years anymore. 3 t 7 years is even considered too long. Make certain tha t electronic switch panels give out and cost more then the entire piece new.

No different then the scam of charging less for the printer and more for the ink.... and there is a sucker born every minute.

I also think that the future for manufacturing is that supply and demand will determine what workers are paid.

Three choices:

- go hungry

- find other work

- move.

Sorry if that is harsh but that is how I see it.

And that has been the position of both Federal and Provincial governments in Ontario for the past 15 years.

Ignore all facets of global competition and competitive advantage, and if you ignore it, it will go away.

Many people subscribe to this vision. Or more clearly, a lack of vision.

Manufacturing will relocate to third world countries and to industrial nations who understand the manufacturing sector. Canada and Ontario lost interest long ago.

I have little use for the incompetence of the Provincial and Federal governments. They have no comprehension of what they have, nor of what they are losing.

What is of interest, is how much local municipal governments are just starting to catch on.... just how big the disaster they are in is and how shallow their actions have been. There is a consensus building that the ship won't turn, it will wreck.

Ontario is well on its way to being a job ghetto.

[fellowtraveller]

Manufacturing is not a sunset industry.

Sorry, I thought we were talking about the making of Ford vehicles in Canada.

And that has been the position of both Federal and Provincial governments in Ontario for the past 15 years.

More recently, they have both poured billions into companies that are on life support. Is that preferable to you?

Ontario is well on its way to being a job ghetto.

which brings me back to the three options that you can do about the situation:

- go hungry

- find other work

- move.

They'll probably take the tradeitional Canadian tactic though, which is to whine that the government should do something

[madmax]

Sorry, I thought we were talking about the making of Ford vehicles in Canada.

We are.... and in typical fashion, following the thread it broadened to the manufacturing industry as a whole. With Topaz asking what it will look like and with your comment in terms of manufacturing and sunset, upon which I was commenting. But it is true with Ford and applies across the board.

More recently, they have both poured billions into companies that are on life support. Is that preferable to you?

Billions has been given to corporations. In the forms of tax cuts, no interest loans and grants. Corporate welfare at its best. And this money goes to companies not on life support. Bankruptcy is a legal manuever and has little to do with life support. Regardless of the method, companies receive government monies, and this monies is invested in foreign countries for the good of the company, not our country. That is your tax monies at work. The vision you speak of is one that existed up until the late 80s, and a little into the 90s. But the intent then, was to attract, retain and improve manufacturing in Canada. It was very successful with Canada becoming a domininant industrial powershouse. We no longer do that, but we do protect the corporation behind the industry.

I am not happy with this at all. And if I had to choose my poison, I would choose to give our monies with strings attached, no chains attached.

which brings me back to the three options that you can do about the situation:

- go hungry

- find other work

- move.

They'll probably take the tradeitional Canadian tactic though, which is to whine that the government should do something

If you believe that governments across the Globe are not involved with corporations, then you are very naive.

Governments around the world are dominated by lobbyists. You're either a player or your not.

Based on your values, you can deregulate the banks tommorrow, allow all banks to come in without restrictions, watch the disappearance of Canadian banks, in the same manner that we have lost agriculture and manufacturing. Then apply it to media, television etc, and there will be no need for local or national programming or newsprint.

If you pay attention. Our money was used to subsidize the US tire recycling industry. How brilliant is that?

One small change in the legislation and after 15 years, tires will be recycled here, if you want the perk.

And it works.

You want our money, there is a string attached.

A manufacturing plant can make anything it wants. The product can always be changed. This is normal regular business that has been happening ever since the industrial revolution.

[fellowtraveller]

I would like to respond, but the things you are talking about are so very broad in context it is pretty much impossible.

Getting once more back to the topic at hand, the closure of Big Three plants is inevitable.

All we can really control is our reaction to it, and I do not see pouring more billions ionto failing businesses as having much future for the autoworkers themselves. One industry towns are always at risk, and Ontario has quite a few.

Move to the oil patch in Saskatchewan, or work construction in Calgary. Or give up. Or be poor. Really, it comes down to a personal choice.

[ToadBrother]

Ford is closing the St Thomas plant and 1500 families will directly hit jobless with another 6000-8000 families in the region. I'm sure these families won't have anything good to say about the provincial -Libs and the Feds Tories, when elections come. The Crown Victoria cop car will be what....a foreign small car? I think both Lib and Tory parties aren't doing enough to keep jobs here. The Tories keep make their FREE Trade agreeements and more jobs leave Canada, so much for reducing the corporate taxes to keep them here. http://www.thestar.com/business/article/71...mbly-plant?bn=1

Why do people blame free trade for these sorts of things. The Big Three have spent the last two decades (or more) building cars that nobody wants to drive. Other than basically seizing control of the companies and dictating what they build, or simply dumping large amounts of tax money into their laps, I'm not sure what the Feds can or should do.

[ToadBrother]

One has to wonder what the manfacturing sector will look like in the future, especially the auto. It wouldn't surprise me if the companies try to break all the unions and then you have $10.00 jobs and little protection from the companies.

Well, high wages and benefits packages hasn't exactly delivered an economic miracle. Ten bucks an hour is too low, but how about $25-$30 an hour plus a modest benefit package that's actually sustainable in an economic downturn?

[Smallc]

All we can really control is our reaction to it, and I do not see pouring more billions ionto failing businesses

Ford isn't failing...or asking for money.

[madmax]

I would like to respond, but the things you are talking about are so very broad in context it is pretty much impossible.

That is why my phone has now become a hotline for economic development.

Getting once more back to the topic at hand, the closure of Big Three plants is inevitable

Why is that? Why should we want the Japanese companies follow the North American Companies.

Toyota just built a new operation in Woodstock, and they are none to happy to see the Auto

Industry leaving the region they just located in. It lowers their costs to have local suppliers

and local suppliers require the business of all manufacturers to lower costs. I am watching one Toyota operation leave me region. And it is productive and profitable.

All we can really control is our reaction to it, and I do not see pouring more billions ionto failing businesses as having much future for the autoworkers themselves.

What failed business are they?

My concern is the massive corporate welfare fraud going on.

One industry towns are always at risk, and Ontario has quite a few.

Ontario was highly industrialized. The level of high industrialization results in diversification. To not understand that Automotive manufacturers make Toner Cartridges for companies like Xerox and Hewlett packard, while making coffee cup holders for Toyota, Honda and GM and dashes etc, shows a lack of knowledge on your part. One company was purchased for its automotive line, which was only 15% of its operations. It was an "Automotive manufacturer". The other 85% of its business was outsourced and the community lost out completely.

Few corporations actually "fail".

Move to the oil patch in Saskatchewan

Did I hear you mention about 1 horse? And quite frankly, I network people into Sask companies, so fear not. Unfortuneately, regardless if every single available job in Sask went to an employee from Ontario, it wouldn't make a dent. At any given moment the number of unemployed in Ontario is half the size of Sask total population. I don't believe Sask is ready or able to handle a 50% increase in population, let alone provide sustainable employment. But thanks for the offer.

, or work construction in Calgary. Or give up. Or be poor. Really, it comes down to a personal choice.

That's right, and at this moment, within visual sight of me are 3 returned Framers and Construction Warehouse operatives from Calgary. Are you unaware that at times demand is so high that people would be flown to Calgary for construction work, but there wasn't housing support for them (irony), and they would be flown back and forth on 2week exchanges. Same is true for the Construcation warehousing, where people from Ontario, would work for less money then people from Alberta.

However, I also know things have dried up significantly, particularly since Alberta rose to the top of the Unemployment list this year.

No one I know gives up, nor should they. The need to educate our government with regards to technology, and value added is critical. The fact that we are giving up our intellectual property is making us poorer by the minute. Its our superior processes which are being moved to China. And quite frankly, you speak in only Canadian Terms.

I have my people around the globe in South Korea and shortly heading off to China.

Its not my job to educate those people ignorant of the Billions being sucked out of our economy by pooor governmnet policies. Its my job to educate all levels of government on behalf of those of us with technological backgrounds, to wake up and smell the coffee before it is too late.

And Ford is the only auto assembly company that I am aware of that has resisted the government monies of late.

Edited November 6, 2009 by madmax