Liberals Down 6%

[madmax]

This could be the start of a long slow fall in support.

Liberals Down 6

Liberals: 39

Progressive Conservatives: 36

NDP: 16

[madmax]

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=4568

Provincial Grit Fortress Ontario Cracks: McGuinty Liberals Tumble (-6) to 39% Support While Hudak PCs In the Hunt (+5) at 36%, Horwath NDP Engaged (+4) at 16%

But While Ontarians (58%) Expect More in Responding to Recent Problems, Government Sidesteps Most Scandal Blame (35%)

October 27, 2009

[madmax]

Environics Poll.

http://erg.environics.net/media_room/default.asp?aID=712

Progressive Conservatives Lead Liberals.

PC= 37%

Lib=32%

NDP=19%

[Michael Hardner]

Interesting that we saw 3 majority governments in a row (one or two terms each) from the NDP, PCs and Liberals, and each party governed as they typically do: NDP (overspending, social concern was the focus, with the usual wring of hands and lefty in-fighting) PCs (make the handicapped pay for their wheelchairs, privatize all health inspectors until the bodies pile up, cut services and taxes) and the Liberals (everything is fine, manage the media not the government, devise their policies by picking the mid-point between NDP and PC as long as the polling supports it)

Which government was best ? None of them.

I'd like to see a well-managed NDP, or a less ideological PC, or a brave Liberal party take power for awhile.

Bill Davis where are you ?

[madmax]

Bill Davis where are you ?

I just had that conversation last night with some friends... funny to hear an online echo.

[Michael Hardner]

Davis was a pragmatic conservative - actually very Liberal by today's standard.

If Ernie Eves wasn't so closely tied to the Harris fiasco then we may have seen him move into that type of role.

[fellowtraveller]

I just had that conversation last night with some friends... funny to hear an online echo.

One conversation you are unlikely to hear is " Bob Rae where are you?"

[Shady]

More like where's Mike Harris when you need him? Ontario just lost it's AAA credit rating, which had been restored under Premier Harris. Lower taxes, strong economy, paying down debt, but at the same time, record funding of healthcare. Life was good.

[fellowtraveller]

More like where's Mike Harris when you need him? Ontario just lost it's AAA credit rating, which had been restored under Premier Harris. Lower taxes, strong economy, paying down debt, but at the same time, record funding of healthcare. Life was good.

I wouldn't put too much importance into loans from the American Automobile Association.

[madmax]

I wouldn't put too much importance into loans from the American Automobile Association.

Two for two in the last two posts

[Shady]

I wouldn't put too much importance into loans from the American Automobile Association.

What are you talking about?

DBRS Downgrades Province of Ontario to AA (low) and R-1 (middle) on Continued Fiscal Erosion

DBRS has downgraded the long-term rating of the Province of Ontario (the Province or Ontario) to AA (low) from AA as a result of the considerable erosion reported today in the Province’s already depressed debt and fiscal outlooks.

Link

[fellowtraveller]

whhooooosssssshhhhh......

[Michael Hardner]

More like where's Mike Harris when you need him? Ontario just lost it's AAA credit rating, which had been restored under Premier Harris. Lower taxes, strong economy, paying down debt, but at the same time, record funding of healthcare. Life was good

Yes, AAA credit rating, piles of bodies and a province at each other's throats.

As I was saying - can we not have a happy medium ? Please ?

How about AA rating and no riots or protests, small deficits and well managed services ? Am I asking for the moon here ?

The key may be for people to pay attention to details, and to let go of their ideologies. Indeed Ontario may finally be ready for a new type of pragmatism after the 3 Stooges' majorities over the past 18 years.

[Keepitsimple]

Yes, AAA credit rating, piles of bodies and a province at each other's throats.

As I was saying - can we not have a happy medium ? Please ?

How about AA rating and no riots or protests, small deficits and well managed services ? Am I asking for the moon here ?

The key may be for people to pay attention to details, and to let go of their ideologies. Indeed Ontario may finally be ready for a new type of pragmatism after the 3 Stooges' majorities over the past 18 years.

Do you simply not remember how the Teacher's Union was holding people in cities across Ontario to ransom. School Boards were financed by local taxpayers - the Teacher's Union would pick on a weak School Board - extort as much money and benefits from them...and use it as a template for the rest of the province - raises of 6 and 7% - benefits like none seen before. And education was going down the tubes - old teachers - unmotivated to change because no one but teachers held them to account. It was all broken because of a greedy union that really cared about nothing but itself. They would simply not change on their own. That's why Harris had to centralize bargaining and set up teacher testing and student testing. The union screamed bloody murder and Harris was the bad guy.....but you haven't seen McGuinty - the Education Minister - try to change things. That was just one example of Harris - the bad guy - doing what needed to be done. He didn't care if people didn't like him - he knew what had to be done - did it - and moved on. Thank you Mike.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Keepitsimple

[Michael Hardner]

KiS

Do you simply not remember how the Teacher's Union was holding people in cities across Ontario to ransom. School Boards were financed by local taxpayers - the Teacher's Union would pick on a weak School Board - extort as much money and benefits from them...and use it as a template for the rest of the province - raises of 6 and 7% - benefits like none seen before. And education was going down the tubes - old teachers - unmotivated to change because no one but teachers held them to account. It was all broken because of a greedy union that really cared about nothing but itself. They would simply not change on their own. That's why Harris had to centralize bargaining and set up teacher testing and student testing. The union screamed bloody murder and Harris was the bad guy.....but you haven't seen McGuinty - the Education Minister - try to change things. That was just one example of Harris - the bad guy - doing what needed to be done. He didn't care if people didn't like him - he knew what had to be done - did it - and moved on. Thank you Mike.

Like I said

As I was saying - can we not have a happy medium ? Please ?

How about AA rating and no riots or protests, small deficits and well managed services ? Am I asking for the moon here ?

[madmax]

They would simply not change on their own. That's why Harris had to centralize bargaining and set up teacher testing and student testing. The union screamed bloody murder and Harris was the bad guy.....but you haven't seen McGuinty - the Education Minister - try to change things. That was just one example of Harris - the bad guy - doing what needed to be done. He didn't care if people didn't like him - he knew what had to be done - did it - and moved on. Thank you Mike.

To be certain, the Public Education system has been a mess since the coming of Mike Harris. Quality of education has not been improved. Teacher testing and student testing is a joke. As for the shifting of the burden of education and downloading every other service to the municipalities, the municipalities got the raw end of the deal, most of all property owners.

I do mimic the previous poster about the 3 stooges majorities.

[Keepitsimple]

KiS

Like I said

Yes, I know you said that.....it's just that the reference to "piles of bodies" always makes my blood boil. As much as Harris was a bull in a china shop (and we needed it at the time), he was always painted unfairly by Walkerton. No system - at least at the time - could have prevented a couple of unqualified drunks being appointed my the mayor of Walkerton to manage water quality - and then proceed to falsify reports. And Dudley George? Harris was forcefully pushing for an injunction to legally remove the squatters from the park at the time George was shot. It all started with Bob Rae - and I agree he was in a tough spot.....but he left such a deficit that the pendulum had to swing all the way to one side. Ultimately, the pendulum had to come back - that was McGuinty......and now he's gone too far. This recession will likely cause another Harris-like pendulum movement. It just seems to be the times.

[Michael Hardner]

KiS

Yes, I know you said that.....it's just that the reference to "piles of bodies" always makes my blood boil. As much as Harris was a bull in a china shop (and we needed it at the time), he was always painted unfairly by Walkerton. No system - at least at the time - could have prevented a couple of unqualified drunks being appointed my the mayor of Walkerton to manage water quality - and then proceed to falsify reports.

Not true. The system in place before his reckless cuts made the situation worse and likely worsened the situation as the inquiry.

The water system had previously included a level of redundancy which provided a measure of safety, but Harris cut it without adequate planning.

http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/e.../WI_Summary.pdf

The thing about Harris was: he acted like he had a strong business focus, but it was just an act. He was in over his head with no real experience in business, and a background as a failed teacher and minor golfer. He believed his own press and people died for it.

And Dudley George? Harris was forcefully pushing for an injunction to legally remove the squatters from the park at the time George was shot. It all started with Bob Rae - and I agree he was in a tough spot.....but he left such a deficit that the pendulum had to swing all the way to one side. Ultimately, the pendulum had to come back - that was McGuinty......and now he's gone too far. This recession will likely cause another Harris-like pendulum movement. It just seems to be the times.

Again you keep bringing up money... please don't make me increase the font size again.

Rae and McGuinty have their own - major - faults but they didn't kill people. Sorry.

[Shady]

As I was saying - can we not have a happy medium ? Please?

Harris was a happy medium. In fact, people liked what his government did so much, they brought them back for a second majority.

How about AA rating and no riots or protests

Who cares whether there's riots or protests. When changes are made, that people don't like, riots and protests will take place. Protesting is a fundamental freedom, and part of democracy. If you want a lack of protest, move to North Korea. You'll love it there. No riots. No protests. None at all. Ever.

small deficits and well managed services ? Am I asking for the moon here?

See the Harris government.

[Michael Hardner]

Shady

QUOTE (Michael Hardner @ Oct 30 2009, 09:25 AM) *

As I was saying - can we not have a happy medium ? Please?

Harris was a happy medium. In fact, people liked what his government did so much, they brought them back for a second majority.

QUOTE (Michael Hardner @ Oct 30 2009, 09:25 AM) *

How about AA rating and no riots or protests

Who cares whether there's riots or protests. When changes are made, that people don't like, riots and protests will take place. Protesting is a fundamental freedom, and part of democracy. If you want a lack of protest, move to North Korea. You'll love it there. No riots. No protests. None at all. Ever.

QUOTE (Michael Hardner @ Oct 30 2009, 09:25 AM) *

small deficits and well managed services ? Am I asking for the moon here?

See the Harris government.

Happy Medium ? Cough... There was nothing medium about Harris.

he won a controversial second majority, during which he was chased from politics never to return.

Who cares if there's riots or protests ? The voters that's who. Harris hasn't been allowed near the political stage again, and that other 'failure' Bob Rae is a few steps away from a run at Prime Minister.

The NK argument is a flimsy strawman... I'd rather have some protests and freedom... but not mass shutdowns and discord.

Harris divided the province and is a reviled figure as evidenced by his lack of presence today. His name is only brought up as a bogeyman when people are discussing how not to run government.

Again, let's review:

• Inept
  
• Fake Businessman
  
• Divided the Province
  
• Killed People
  
• Failure
  

[Shady]

he won a controversial second majority

That's an oxymoron. There's no such thing as a "controversial" majority. He recieved overwhelming support. The only controversy is that you didn't like it.

Who cares if there's riots or protests ? The voters that's who.

Not necessarily. It depends who and why people are protesting. Winning a second majority government proves your premise to be false. The voter's didn't care about the protests.

The NK argument is a flimsy strawman...

Well, you're the one who said you wanted a government governing without protest. It doesn't exist, except in dictatorships.

Harris divided the province

Again, history proves your premise to be false. One doesn't win back to back majorities with a province so-called divided.

Again, let's review:

• Inept
  
• Fake Businessman
  
• Divided the Province
  
• Killed People
  
• Failure
  

Inept: if you mean balancing budgets, fostering strong economic growth, lowering taxes, and raising our credit rating

Fake businessman: Not even sure what that means. But he did make Ontario the most attractive place to do business amoung our neighbouring provinces and states.

Divided the province: As I've already proven, you don't win majority governments twice by dividing people.

Killed people: If he killed people, than McGuinty and every other Premier to come before Harris has also killed people, using your logic.

Failure: Again, if being handed a 10 billion dollar deficit, turning it into surpluses, lowering taxes, creating a great business environment, fostering strong economic growth, and saving billions of dollars by raising the province's credit rating is failure, then I don't want your so-called success.

[Michael Hardner]

Shady,

That's an oxymoron. There's no such thing as a "controversial" majority. He recieved overwhelming support. The only controversy is that you didn't like it.

That wasn't the only controversy but fair enough.

Not necessarily. It depends who and why people are protesting. Winning a second majority government proves your premise to be false. The voter's didn't care about the protests.

But being drummed out of politics forever proves nothing ? Come on.

Well, you're the one who said you wanted a government governing without protest. It doesn't exist, except in dictatorships.

That's a stretch, but as I already pointed out this is a strawman and a sideshow discussion at best...

Again, history proves your premise to be false. One doesn't win back to back majorities with a province so-called divided.

Cough cough... out of politics forever... cough

Inept: if you mean balancing budgets, fostering strong economic growth, lowering taxes, and raising our credit rating

Mismanaging important ministries, accidentally removing welfare benefits to disabled people, and don't forget the Ontario Hydro fiasco.

Fake businessman: Not even sure what that means. But he did make Ontario the most attractive place to do business amoung our neighbouring provinces and states.

Divided the province: As I've already proven, you don't win majority governments twice by dividing people.

Fake businessman -> wore a suit but so do some chimps.

Divisive -> Already addressed.

Killed people: If he killed people, than McGuinty and every other Premier to come before Harris has also killed people, using your logic.

Show me Inquiry Conclusions that blame them for deaths and I will concur.

Failure: Again, if being handed a 10 billion dollar deficit, turning it into surpluses, lowering taxes, creating a great business environment, fostering strong economic growth, and saving billions of dollars by raising the province's credit rating is failure, then I don't want your so-called success. laugh.gif

He did some things well, but like I said ... aw... Big Font... you know.

Listen, I actually like that Harris wanted to run Ontario like a business, just that they needed a smarter monkey to do it... and a monkey that killed less people.

[Wild Bill]

Shady,

That wasn't the only controversy but fair enough.

But being drummed out of politics forever proves nothing ? Come on.

That's a stretch, but as I already pointed out this is a strawman and a sideshow discussion at best...

Cough cough... out of politics forever... cough

Mismanaging important ministries, accidentally removing welfare benefits to disabled people, and don't forget the Ontario Hydro fiasco.

Fake businessman -> wore a suit but so do some chimps.

Divisive -> Already addressed.

Show me Inquiry Conclusions that blame them for deaths and I will concur.

He did some things well, but like I said ... aw... Big Font... you know.

Listen, I actually like that Harris wanted to run Ontario like a business, just that they needed a smarter monkey to do it... and a monkey that killed less people.

Michael, usually I find your posts much more logical. It really seems your viewpoint is mostly emotional on this one. Passionate, but not logical.

As always, you're entitled to your opinion. The real question however is how many other Ontarioans share it! I've posted before that I believe this to be an untested premise.

I submit that it's always the rebels who win huge majorities. Trudeau, Mulroney and Harris' victories seem to me to show that the electorate is rarely that enthusiastic with the typical, "middle of the road", "centre", "beige suit and brown shoes" candidates. We desperately want SOMETHING other than the status quo! If we get it the choice seems to be taken from us. Mulroney quit, he was not voted down. We'll never know if he would have won the next election. Certainly, we can assume he would not have done as badly as Kim Campbell, the choice that the people never chose. She was chosen by her party to be their offering.

The same with Harris. He retired. Ernie Eves was very much Harris Lite! I don't blame Ontario for voting in the Liberals. Ernie never wanted the job and didn't seem all that different from the Liberals anyway! Certainly, he worked hard to tell us that he would NOT be like Harris!

I don't normally go in for conspiracy theories but it does seem strange that we are so rarely offered such candidates. We are given far more Joe Clarks than Mulroneys, many more John Turners than Trudeaus.

It almost seems as if the game is actually run by some sort of Ned Flanders Illuminati!

[Topaz]

How can anyone in their right mind want the Harris days back!! People died under his actions, he turned Ontario upside down trying to govern with his US schooled advisors and left a debt and healthcare in a mess.

[madmax]

See the Harris government.

Selling the house to pay the mortgage is fiscal stupidity. Harris was not the sharpest tool in the shed. He was also a polarizing individual. Then there were the clowns like Snobelen who believed that he should be paid like a corporate executive as an MPP. He also believed the public should be happy he is out of the country in his ranch because he can take care of things with his cell phone.

They were a bunch of hyporcrits, and very much into fine dining and entitlements. (someone who saw through this was Bill Murdoch, who was begining to show a strong independant streak)

But what I don't like about Harris, "the straight shooter" is that he wasn't. He was a coward who hung the police force out to dry. So whatever you think of Ipperwash, the fact is, Harris ran away like a coward, and engaged in denial.

However, the handing of the ETR is indicative of the overall competence of the Harris Conservatives.

Idealogical boneheads focused on short term gains for long term pain.

It was Harris who then put the fear into industry by tossing out Ontarios hidden gem. Low cost power to industry. Industry just got screwed in California and Harris was bringing in the left coast nightmare to Ontario. He stepped aside for Ernie Eves, but ever since, hydro has been a lost file of consective PC and Liberal Governments.

While every government has their good points, and even the 3 stooges governments have provided some measure of good programs ideas or direction, Ontario has not been served well for nearly 20 years.

Edited October 31, 2009 by madmax