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Unrest reported in Tory ranks


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http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/alberta/20...180741-sun.html

In his Sept. 25 newsletter, McLoughlin wrote: "Credible Conservative sources say if Smith, a former Calgary broadcaster, wins the leadership ... as many as 10 MLAs elected as Conservatives are contemplating departing government benches in the legislature to sit as Wildrose MLAs."

This is the first I have heard about this.

Wouldn't be easier to get Stelmach to step down?

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Here is what Klein is saying.

http://www.am770chqr.com/News/Local/Story.aspx?ID=1145456

Former Alberta premier Ralph Klein says Premier Ed Stelmach should resign if he doesn't get 70 per cent support when Tory delegates hold a mandatory leadership vote this fall.

Klein says in an email to The Canadian Press that his advice would be for Stelmach to step down if he doesn't reach that plateau at the November 7th vote.

Klein ought to know. He resigned with 55% support.

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Thank god Klein piped up. That makes 100% of all concerned parties in the "I hate Ed the communist" camp (teachers, nurses, all other political parties, Klein, Bronconnier, unions, oilpatch, etc). The guy has managed to piss off everyone in the province. This may be the first time a PC leader got toasted in his first term. Excellent.

As for the Wildrose, I sincerely hope they steal more than 10 seats. There is no way in hell that the Stelmach Liberals will lose the next election, but it would be a pleasure to see him have a very slim majority.

10, 9, 8, 7, 6........bye Ed!

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Thank god Klein piped up. That makes 100% of all concerned parties in the "I hate Ed the communist" camp (teachers, nurses, all other political parties, Klein, Bronconnier, unions, oilpatch, etc). The guy has managed to piss off everyone in the province. This may be the first time a PC leader got toasted in his first term. Excellent.

As for the Wildrose, I sincerely hope they steal more than 10 seats. There is no way in hell that the Stelmach Liberals will lose the next election, but it would be a pleasure to see him have a very slim majority.

10, 9, 8, 7, 6........bye Ed!

Only in Alberta would someone like Stelmach be called a Communist.

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http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/alberta/20...180741-sun.html

This is the first I have heard about this.

Wouldn't be easier to get Stelmach to step down?

This has been going on for quite a while. Very few PCers are happy with Stelmach. Most consider him a Liberal. If the Liberal Party wasn't a complete non-entity in Alberta, I'm quite certain he'd be one. It's a wonder he won the leadership in the first place, but considering the totally unconservative way he's been running Alberta, I would expect him to lose seats to Wildrose next time around.

Alberta has a history of dropping one conservative option for another, then sticking with that choice to the ultimate demise of the former. I think Wildrose has a very legitimate chance of becoming "next".

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Alberta has a history of dropping one conservative option for another, then sticking with that choice to the ultimate demise of the former. I think Wildrose has a very legitimate chance of becoming "next".

Still, it seems odd to abandon the PCs when the question is one of leader. The PCs in Alberta have a review coming. It seems to make more sense to revitalize the leadership. Or is it regarded as being their entire PC party as the source of the problem?

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When a leader is hated this much and the party refuses to remove him as leader, constituents only have one course of action open to them -----> vote them out. One would think that MLA's would get the idea after so many occurences of this, but until the Wildrose, there really hasn't been an option for conservatives. There's no way in hell we would elect a Liberal government, and the NDP can hold a caucus meeting in a bathroom.

How else does the message get to the party?

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I think Wildrose has a very legitimate chance of becoming "next".

That is very funny.

Part of the anger from some p[osters here is the reality that Calgary has dominated the PC Party and the govt for decades, and Stelmach defeated both the Calgary boys- Dinning the smoothy corpoarate favorite and Morton the horror show fundamentalist. People who shit on Alberta for being a redneck, right wing heartland forget how Stelmach came to power, in a visceral rejection of all that.

Stelmach is a commie to them, while being a redneck Bushbot to the rest of Canada. Hilarious.

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Stelmach is a commie to them, while being a redneck Bushbot to the rest of Canada. Hilarious.

Bang on. Another shining example of how different the political views of Albertans are from other areas of Canada. Yes, Stelmach is very left wing for this province and yet so far to the right for some parts of Canada to be considered redneck.

Someone like Bush would have been elected here in a split second. Even though he's an idiot, he's still better than the Liberals or NDP.

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Bang on. Another shining example of how different the political views of Albertans are from other areas of Canada. Yes, Stelmach is very left wing for this province and yet so far to the right for some parts of Canada to be considered redneck.

Someone like Bush would have been elected here in a split second. Even though he's an idiot, he's still better than the Liberals or NDP.

Again, it looks like the 'Wild Rose' is proving my point, that Canadians often have been denied what they REALLY want!

Isn't this how Reform got started? What might happen if Wild Rose went national? Would we see Harper's party brought down to 2 seats, just like before?

I've said it many times that I don't believe that Reform style supporters have all miraculously changed and now love the very type of party they had rejected when Manning burst on the scene. It's simply that they now have no viable alternative. This represents a very large segment of the electorate that could be easy pickings for a new party.

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Again, it looks like the 'Wild Rose' is proving my point, that Canadians often have been denied what they REALLY want!

Isn't this how Reform got started? What might happen if Wild Rose went national? Would we see Harper's party brought down to 2 seats, just like before?

I'm sure the Federal Liberals pray for that every night.

I've said it many times that I don't believe that Reform style supporters have all miraculously changed and now love the very type of party they had rejected when Manning burst on the scene. It's simply that they now have no viable alternative. This represents a very large segment of the electorate that could be easy pickings for a new party.

It represents a large segment, but not a sufficient one to guarantee victory. The problem that Reform ran up against time and time again was a general rejection by urban voters. Say what you will about Harper, but he's done what needs to be done for a right-of-centre party to actually form a government. At some point the Western social conservative rump is going to have to face what even Manning finally realized, and that is that they cannot form a government unless they water down their views. It's that simple. People can complain all day about how Harper has sold out their principles, how he's turned the Reform movement back into the PCs, but that is the history of conservatism in this country over the last century. It's always been an uneasy alliance between the Progressives and the Conservatives, and the success of any Tory leader has been the managing of expectations of both wings of the party.

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Yay! Alberta will have choices now; social conservative wingnuts or batsh*t crazy social conservative wingnuts.

:lol::lol::lol:

Kinda the right wing nut house of Canada?

Even scarier is the notion that this is the epicentre of conservative thought for the current ruling party in this country... :o

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Bang on. Another shining example of how different the political views of Albertans are from other areas of Canada. Yes, Stelmach is very left wing for this province and yet so far to the right for some parts of Canada to be considered redneck.

Someone like Bush would have been elected here in a split second. Even though he's an idiot, he's still better than the Liberals or NDP.

Actually,it shows how totally out of touch Alberta is with the rest of the Canadian electorate...At least east of the Manitoba border...

God help this country if it is forced to endure unfettered Alberta conservativism...

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the rest of the Canadian electorate...At least east of the Manitoba border...

See? THERE ya go Jack. Way to represent the "East vs West" debate (still alive and kicking). It only matters what people "east of the Manitoba border" think, huh? I'm sure people in "Beamsville, Ontario" are the height of the cosmopolitan world and know what's best for all of us, right?

God help this country if it is forced to endure unfettered Alberta conservativism...

God probably would help this country if it is forced (kinda like the Third Reich) to endure Alberta thinking. Heaven forbid we should have accountability on the part of criminals, low taxes, and an immigration system that actually makes sense. The Conservatives are just waiting to force all of those voters on election day.

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I'm sure the Federal Liberals pray for that every night.

It represents a large segment, but not a sufficient one to guarantee victory. The problem that Reform ran up against time and time again was a general rejection by urban voters. Say what you will about Harper, but he's done what needs to be done for a right-of-centre party to actually form a government. At some point the Western social conservative rump is going to have to face what even Manning finally realized, and that is that they cannot form a government unless they water down their views. It's that simple. People can complain all day about how Harper has sold out their principles, how he's turned the Reform movement back into the PCs, but that is the history of conservatism in this country over the last century. It's always been an uneasy alliance between the Progressives and the Conservatives, and the success of any Tory leader has been the managing of expectations of both wings of the party.

Well, it may seem that way to you but from direct experience I vividly recall that except for that brief lunacy of Stockwell Day's leadership Reform was constantly growing, just not fast enough for some, it appeared. To pull as many votes as they did in basically a decade in the game was amazing. If they had have had more patience history may have been quite different.

The merger with the Tories was based on the assumption that most if not all of each party's core support could simply be added together. Obviously, they were wrong about that!

I could echo Hydraboss and turn your own argument against you. It would appear that the urban views of Eastern Canada will NEVER be accepted by the West! Your argument is a recipe for a perpetually split country, which inevitably leads to separation. I myself live in Ontario but I have always been amazed that the West didn't split long ago. They have more than enough reason to separate.

Those who trumpet about how Western values just don't fit in the East seem also to assume that the West should just shut up and lump it! I find that a very dangerous assumption if one truly wants to keep this country together. You don't breed unity by looking down your nose or scolding.

Meanwhile, it would be short-sighted to assume that the new CPC has not paid a price. I'm sure I'm not the only former supporter who no longer donates time and enthusiasm to the local riding machinery.

Meanwhile, if Alberta ever does separate I hope your words are remembered. I do agree with your last point, that "the success of any Tory leader has been the managing of expectations of both wings of the party". It's just that it appears to me that Harper has totally IGNORED the old Reform wing of his party!

Surely he could have at least tossed us a bone or two...

Edited by Wild Bill
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Yes, Stelmach is very left wing for this province and yet so far to the right for some parts of Canada to be considered redneck.

No, he is neither except in the fevered brains of Calgarians who resent that he is not their man and those from the former Center of the Universe who hate Alberta and Albertans for not being their bitches.

It represents a large segment
No, it doesn't represent anything except a bye election win, and it is not the least unusual for a sitting ruling party to suiffer byeelection defeats.

Actions speak volumes, and consider how exactly Stelmach came to power..........When it looked like the ugly candidate, the one who looked and talked very much like the Wild Rose party -Ted Morton- was about to win via the back door Tories and Albertans spoke unambiguously and elected a centrist candidate, Stelmach. The smackdown of the right wing and Christian nutbars was brutal. It's a fact the Alberta haters love to ignore.

In the bigger picture, Wild Rose is and remains a fringe party, winning back a single seat, which is the best they will ever do.

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No, he is neither except in the fevered brains of Calgarians who resent that he is not their man and those from the former Center of the Universe who hate Alberta and Albertans for not being their bitches.

First of all, I'm not from Calgary. Ed IS left wing for this province (his recent speech following the Wildrose win in Calgary stated that Albertans want him to take the government in a more conservative direction). His words, not mine. The people from the east that hate Albertans will hate us regardless of who is in power.

Actions speak volumes, and consider how exactly Stelmach came to power..........When it looked like the ugly candidate, the one who looked and talked very much like the Wild Rose party -Ted Morton- was about to win via the back door Tories and Albertans spoke unambiguously and elected a centrist candidate, Stelmach. The smackdown of the right wing and Christian nutbars was brutal. It's a fact the Alberta haters love to ignore.

Stelmach very nearly lost the election (remember it was all or nothing in the end). Morton would have made many people in this province very happy. Hopefully he runs again when Eddie the Communist gets booted. The PC's may have no choice but to run him if the Wildrose gains power.

In the bigger picture, Wild Rose is and remains a fringe party, winning back a single seat, which is the best they will ever do.

I disagree. They will not form government anytime soon, but I could see them becoming Official Opposition due to the hatred for Ed. Right wing conservatives want to be able to send a message without actually changing the government.

Albertans are bored with their politics.

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God probably would help this country if it is forced (kinda like the Third Reich) to endure Alberta thinking. Heaven forbid we should have accountability on the part of criminals, low taxes, and an immigration system that actually makes sense. The Conservatives are just waiting to force all of those voters on election day.

About all Alberta has demonstrated is even an alcoholic half-wit can run a province when the oil revenues are flowing in, but when those revenues stop, the whole house comes tumbling down.

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Well, it may seem that way to you but from direct experience I vividly recall that except for that brief lunacy of Stockwell Day's leadership Reform was constantly growing, just not fast enough for some, it appeared. To pull as many votes as they did in basically a decade in the game was amazing. If they had have had more patience history may have been quite different.

By slowly you mean glacial, and that after Manning had done his own mea culpa and started moving the party more to the center.

The merger with the Tories was based on the assumption that most if not all of each party's core support could simply be added together. Obviously, they were wrong about that!

Other than a few obstinate PCers, it seems to have worked so far as I can tell.

[

I could echo Hydraboss and turn your own argument against you. It would appear that the urban views of Eastern Canada will NEVER be accepted by the West! Your argument is a recipe for a perpetually split country, which inevitably leads to separation. I myself live in Ontario but I have always been amazed that the West didn't split long ago. They have more than enough reason to separate.

The West is not just Alberta. In BC, in urban areas, Liberals and NDP have a pretty decent success rate.

Those who trumpet about how Western values just don't fit in the East seem also to assume that the West should just shut up and lump it! I find that a very dangerous assumption if one truly wants to keep this country together. You don't breed unity by looking down your nose or scolding.

People keep talking like the West is one big uber-Alberta. Most British Columbians tend to view Alberta like the rest of Canada, a place where oddballs in cowboy hats hate fags and want murderers lynched. Yes, we have our Bible Belt, but it's a few ridings, not 90% of the Province.

Meanwhile, it would be short-sighted to assume that the new CPC has not paid a price. I'm sure I'm not the only former supporter who no longer donates time and enthusiasm to the local riding machinery.

I'm sure you're not. But then again, the CPC actually has formed a government, and is within spitting distance (if the polls continue their trend) of being able to form a majority. I think they'll view dropping guys like you as a reasonable loss.

Meanwhile, if Alberta ever does separate I hope your words are remembered. I do agree with your last point, that "the success of any Tory leader has been the managing of expectations of both wings of the party". It's just that it appears to me that Harper has totally IGNORED the old Reform wing of his party!

So this is the new line. "We're LEAVING!!!!!!" Well, you can't right now, can you, because the drop off in oil revenues, which is the only thing that kept that economic engine of yours ticking, have collapsed, revealing years of ineptitude and a lack of planning.

Surely he could have at least tossed us a bone or two...

Like what? Banning abortions, banning gay marriage? You've got a moronic drug policy that still treats people who smoke pot like they were devils with knives. What is that you want that wouldn't see folks in Ontario, and even many edgy Western ridings, move over to the Liberals?

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God help this country if it is forced to endure unfettered Alberta conservativism...

You right god help this country, with out it (alberta conservativism) who knows how low we would have sunk into recession with the three stooges at the helm.

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You right god help this country, with out it (alberta conservativism) who knows how low we would have sunk into recession with the three stooges at the helm.

Could you be specific as to what in Alberta Conservatism represents any sort of fiscal management. Right now Alberta's economy is tanking, and until the price of oil gets back up, it will continue to do so. There's no particular sound financial management in Alberta. I would imagine the Saudi government is probably more fiscally prudent than either King Ralph "Liquor" Klein or Ed Doormat ever were.

Here's a hint, when your super-stupendous economy is in the stratosphere when oil prices are high, but public finances collapse when they're low, it might be prudent to consider the possibility that your government really isn't all that fiscally responsible after all.

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Could you be specific as to what in Alberta Conservatism represents any sort of fiscal management. Right now Alberta's economy is tanking, and until the price of oil gets back up, it will continue to do so. There's no particular sound financial management in Alberta. I would imagine the Saudi government is probably more fiscally prudent than either King Ralph "Liquor" Klein or Ed Doormat ever were.

Here's a hint, when your super-stupendous economy is in the stratosphere when oil prices are high, but public finances collapse when they're low, it might be prudent to consider the possibility that your government really isn't all that fiscally responsible after all.

Stelmach and Klien never were part of the alberta conservatism school of thought, One was a liberal liberal the other is a fool. The Alberta school of conservatism was the first PC Premier and ended under the next, it then transformed and moved to the federal stage under reform and finds its stewart now under Tom Flanigan.

The only conservative in the PC party is the name itself, it transformed into the liberal party many years ago.

Edited by Alta4ever
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