Only 12% of Stimulus Cash Delivered

[nicky10013]

I'm sure the process could have gone smoother but nothing like this has ever been tried on such a scale. You're missing a big point about "the money not getting out". Money is not given out ahead of time - the work starts and you send a bill that gets paid by Ottawa. Some cities went ahead and started their projects, knowing that they'd be paid. Others were sceptical or slow-moving for some reason or another. Regardless of the reasons, everything has been flowing freely for awhile. Even the city of Brampton's mayor - the very city that Ignatieff started his rant - said he had absolutely no complaints about how the Feds have delivered. Toronto was a sad, sad story - the biggest recipient of stimulus funding - and they decide to play games while people in the city are begging for work. Miller deserves to be shot for playing with people's lives. Unforgiveable.

There's just no excuse for this. "It's never been tried before" isn't one. The government spends far more than 34 billion dollars in each fiscal year. As for "the government not paying until the work is done," that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Of course the government pays. You don't pay, nothing gets done. Do you just expect people to work for nothing and expect a cheque from the government sometime in the next year? If I were the mayor of a municipality I certainly wouldn't be trusting this government in getting the money out on projects it really never wanted to fund in the first place because they never thought a problem existed. Just another made up excuse for why this government has failed.

I also agree that it was sad how Miller played games with stimulus money, but despite whatever games he played A) new streetcars would've created new jobs at Bombardier in Thunder Bay and the only reason why Toronto "is the highest recipient of stimulus cash" is because the Tories actually think they may be able to win a seat and threw billions of unsolicited cash at the city. I wonder how much more they actually owe Toronto in terms of how much money they don't give to the TTC in subsidies as opposed to Ottawa, Vancouver or Calgary transit and other funds owed to the city via the gas tax but never delievered.

Edited September 26, 2009 by nicky10013

[nicky10013]

You think wrongly. Just because I ask a loaded question doesn't mean I'm confused... just leading up to something.

I do recall our Prime Minister declaring that the economic crisis did not affect Canada significantly, that Canada is somewhat protected from the US economic downfall and should be able to ride it out.

Next thing you know, bankers and economists are jumping up and down, saying that if US banks get a handout, it puts ours at a disadvantage. If you agree with that I want to ask you HOW, since their banks are in financial crisis and ours are healthy.

Now, a few months later we see that Canada is doing far better than expected. Wow, what a pleasant surprise... or is it?

"the central bank, led by governor Mark Carney, said economic growth would return in the third quarter, marking an end to a short, but deep, recession. Growth of 1.3% was expected in the third quarter, followed by an expansion of 3% in the final three months of the year – for average growth of 2.15% in the second half."

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=1979270

I had my doubts before about whether we ever had an economic problem at all, or whether we were financially "obligated" to play along with someone else's big problem. I still have those doubts now. In other words, Canadian tax payers dollars used to bail out another countries banks, and line our bankers pockets nicely at the same time.

Canadians paid down the debt for years to be financially responsible and in a strong position, only to lose that investment and take on a huge deficit, from someone else who was far less responsible. What heros we are

Ok mr. taxman, I got the next bag of cash for you to take away.

To surmise your post, you essnetially just argued that if we stick our heads in the sand deep enough we'll neither be able see or hear anything going wrong therefore nothing is wrong. Sorry if I disagree.

As for Mark Carney, he has gotten every single one of his forecasts wrong, just like Deficit Jim. I really don't put much stock into economic numbers from this government. I hope they get it right sometime, I really truly do. However, if we go on record for these guys, there isn't much hope of an accurate projection of waht the economy will actually do. It's sad when you have to rely on international projections to get something accurately.

Considering their record, how can anyone not assume it's just politically motivated lies to make themselves look better?

[Keepitsimple]

There's just no excuse for this. "It's never been tried before" isn't one. The government spends far more than 34 billion dollars in each fiscal year. As for "the government not paying until the work is done," that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Of course the government pays. You don't pay, nothing gets done. Do you just expect people to work for nothing and expect a cheque from the government sometime in the next year? If I were the mayor of a municipality I certainly wouldn't be trusting this government in getting the money out on projects it really never wanted to fund in the first place because they never thought a problem existed. Just another made up excuse for why this government has failed.

Have you ever heard of a line of credit? Cities borrow all the time. That's how Mississauga and other cities did it - they got approval and borrowed as required. In agreements with the Feds, the provinces told the cities the money would flow......so a lot of the delays were bureaucratic at the Municipal level. And there has never been a spending spree like this in the history of Canada so yes....it's a big, big undertaking. Sure the government spends more - but it's divided across ministries with thousands of civil servants and years of accountability built into them - and there's STILL the odd scandal. I don't expect to convince you of any of this....I'd just like to point out facts and overall, things seem to be going pretty darn well.

[Sir Bandelot]

To surmise your post, you essnetially just argued that if we stick our heads in the sand deep enough we'll neither be able see or hear anything going wrong therefore nothing is wrong.

Therefore nothing is wrong??? What the heck are you talking about. I definitely believe something is wrong. Something went wrong for someone else, and Canada got sucked in.

To "surmise" my post, I'm saying that taking the government and bankers at their word, is to risk being deluded. I doubt there ever was an impending financial collapse coming for Canada. The evidence seems to say otherwise.

But if there was, certainly Canadians should be pissed that they had tightened their belts and dug in to reduce our deficit, we made the sacrifices and did the hard work, and someone else got the money.

[Topaz]

This stimulus program, I hope is better than the Reno, were we (consimers) spend up to $10,000 into our homes and the government will give back $1300? I know lots of people who need work done on their homes and can't afford it and some of them are on EI. SO I wonder if the cities and muncipality finally get the work done if the government going to be too deep in the red to come up with the money.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The so-called stimulus package was and is a joke. Its a bad joke at that. The reasons for the problems within the plan are very simple. Bureaucracy. You can blame all of the problems on anything you like, but the reason for the delay falls right there.

In order to do this quickly they would have had to use a crown corporation with a development project that had already had approval at all levels. There is simply no other way it could have been done quicker.

[capricorn]

The so-called stimulus package was and is a joke. Its a bad joke at that. The reasons for the problems within the plan are very simple. Bureaucracy. You can blame all of the problems on anything you like, but the reason for the delay falls right there.

I don't think it's the stimulus package that is wrong as such. It's, as you say, bureaucracy which in our case means snaking through 3 levels of government. Flaherty alluded that care must be taken that money is not misappropriated. Dealing with these vast sums of money invites fraud against the government from unscrupulous individuals. Many countries are not hampered by 3 levels of government the way we are and project approvals/oversight get done more quickly.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I don't think it's the stimulus package that is wrong as such. It's, as you say, bureaucracy which in our case means snaking through 3 levels of government. Flaherty alluded that care must be taken that money is not misappropriated. Dealing with these vast sums of money invites fraud against the government from unscrupulous individuals. Many countries are not hampered by 3 levels of government the way we are and project approvals/oversight get done more quickly.

We are on the same bus then. The real problem here is bureaucracy. To even to begin to address that little issue we need some serious democratic reforms. You can't just go around whacking these programs and services, or even the departments that provide them without some serious thinking. They are the place your politicians appoint their buddies, this comes under the category of cronyism 101, patronage is how you gain supporters to do all the dirty work for you. Its the payoff for the unelected, they become the appointed.

[capricorn]

They are the place your politicians appoint their buddies, this comes under the category of cronyism 101, patronage is how you gain supporters to do all the dirty work for you.

It is for this reason I don't object to the Liberals raising red flags about specific stimulus spending initiatives or any questionable trends. The Conservatives need to look into any complaints and, answer to any and all charges the Liberals bring forward. It's the best way to keep them honest and on their toes. That is an integral part of the job of the opposition. The Liberals may sound picky but if there's no substance to what they raise, a truthful and straightforward answer should settle it.