Oleg Bach Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 No problem coming out of Egypt and holocausting any tribe that stood in the way of you getting to the promised land Maybe if you live by the sword you suffer by it and are stuck with having it crazy glued to your hand? If you look at the history of every race, tribe and religion...you will see that almost all of them killed their neighbour and stole his goods and property - Why do we think the Jews are so sweet - they killed and robbed JUST LIKE THE REST OF US! How they managed to get into a position of being special is beyond me! I guess they are very very good masters of deception. - Look at their King David... a rapist and a mobster....Look at the fact that Solomon's seal (Star Of David) was created by Solomon who was born before David - even the son steals from the father....It should be called by it's proper name - SOLOMON'S SEAL.....not the Star of David - but David is more admired by the crimminal element in Judiac society - go figure..they champion the bad guy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) If you had a child you loved, you would know how easy it is to feel empathy for the loss of another's child.If you had human emotions, you would find that empathy for 10+ millions humans comes easily too... jeez already Dancer? already with the labeling and dehumanizing? My point was quite clear: to FEEL THE SAME KIND OF EMPATHY as the parents of the child... You're simply lying to say that immediate deaths in YOUR family (with people you know and are related too) are the same as even the remote death in the family of a neighbor or stranger. If you really are telling me that your own children mean no more and no less to you then other stranger's children... then I feel sorry for you and your unfortunate children. Of course if an acquaintance of mine suffers the loss of a child, I may be devastated and feel very sad for them, and I may even be devastated to learn of a particularly tragic death on the news of people i've never even met. But id be far more devastated and hurt to hear of the death of someone in my immediate family... never mind my own children. And i'm pretty sure that's what is right and natural. Edited October 21, 2009 by lictor616 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 If you had a child you loved, you would know how easy it is to feel empathy for the loss of another's child.If you had human emotions, you would find that empathy for 10+ millions humans comes easily too... 10 million humans? you're not talking about the holocaust are you... 10 million is actually the estimate for the number of people who died in the Holodomor. I'm not sure where you live... but i'm quite certain that nearly NOBODY knows about the Holodomor and much less care.... And i'm fairly confident that YOU don't care about the Holodomor... which is quite odd considering the endless yammering and wailing we constantly hear about the Holocaust. Maybe we don't care about the Holodomor because after all... the victims were lowly white Europeans... not worshipful jews... And maybe we don't hear about the Holodomor because it might get people to start thinking about their plight in a crypto-communist country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 10 million humans? you're not talking about the holocaust are you... 10 million is actually the estimate for the number of people who died in the Holodomor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust..._and_death_toll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 I'm not sure where you live... but i'm quite certain that nearly NOBODY knows about the Holodomor and much less care.... I'm fairly certain you are wrong. It's a good idea not to project your own ignorance on others, what may be news and a strtling revelation to you might be history for another.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Maybe we don't care about the Holodomor because after all... the victims were lowly white Europeans... not worshipful jews... You're an ignorant ass but I think yoiu already know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust..._and_death_toll to include gypsies, communists, and homosexuals in the death toll is actually sometimes looked as "Holocaust Denial" by such organizations as the ADL and Simon Wiesenthal center. Don't you remember the hoopla during the 2004 ceremonies at the United Nations when Kofi Annan referred to the ceremonies as "an important event meant to remember the Jews and others who were murdered at Auschwitz." Even to refer contumeliously to the gyspies, poles, russians etc... as mere "OTHERS" is unacceptable to the Holocaust Industry. Eli Wiesel actually gave a serious rebuke to Annan when he crossed that line! Jews don't like to have the Holocaust even refer to any other group except Jews. the accepted PC definition of the "holocaust" is: "the term that describes the murder of six million Jews in Europe during World War II" everything else according to the censors, is NOT THE HOLOCAUST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) I'm fairly certain you are wrong. It's a good idea not to project your own ignorance on others, what may be news and a strtling revelation to you might be history for another.. The holodomor is not a widely known historical event.... you know that, I know that. The holodomor doesn't get 1% of the publicity that the Holocaust gets, and yet is comparatively WORSE. To call me ignorant doesn't change these very obvious facts. I attended a montreal Holodomor march, and 700 people showed up (almost all of them Ukrainians), no TV cameras... nothing. Edited October 21, 2009 by lictor616 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 lictor, Why are you angry that one holocaust is more well known than another ? I don't understand that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 lictor,Why are you angry that one holocaust is more well known than another ? I don't understand that. I would be pissed off if one group got all the benefits while all the other groups that deserved compensation got diddly squat - what about the 2000 acres the commies took from my father? And what about the 20 million Slavic dead - not counting the 16 million Ukranians starved by Stalin...and that Chamberlain fellow waving the promisory note from Hitler - why can't we sue his former handlers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 The holodomor is not a widely known historical event.... you know that, I know that. The holodomor doesn't get 1% of the publicity that the Holocaust gets, and yet is comparatively WORSE. To call me ignorant doesn't change these very obvious facts. Yet I have known about since high school. I attended a montreal Holodomor march, and 700 people showed up (almost all of them Ukrainians), no TV cameras... nothing. As usual you distort the ....ahem...obvious facts... Media coverage was extensive on the eve of the opening of the photo and book exhibit. It began on April 30 in La Presse, Montreal's largest French daily and intensified on the Thursday and Friday preceding the march, with interviews on both English and French radio and TV stations. There was also an article in Info-Bulletin, a biweekly published by recent Russian-speaking immigrants. TV crews from Radio Canada and CTV and Global stayed for most of the Memorial March, interviewed survivors and commentators, and aired reports on the 6 p.m. and 10 p.m. news programs. On Sunday, May 10, two articles with photos appeared in the Montreal Gazette and La Presse. http://www.ukemonde.com/holodomor/montreal_community.html http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news...38a&k=95553 http://nashholos.blogspot.com/2008/11/cana...nowledging.html Aren't you getting tired of being caught in lies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Oleg, I would be pissed off if one group got all the benefits while all the other groups that deserved compensation got diddly squat - what about the 2000 acres the commies took from my father? And what about the 20 million Slavic dead - not counting the 16 million Ukranians starved by Stalin...and that Chamberlain fellow waving the promisory note from Hitler - why can't we sue his former handlers? Benefits ? Most of what he's griping about is media attention, as if there's a favoured child in the family. I find it distasteful. If you want to mourn your people then you absolutely should. No one is stopping you from doing that, and most will be empathetic to that horror as well. The Jewish presence in American life is the reason for the attention from what I can see, what would you have us do about that ? They were systematically isolated for extinction based on their race, and he's complaining that they get movies made about them. It's disgusting, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Yet I have known about since high school. lol good for you, but unfortunately you are not the rule for canadians... The holodomor has no place in the school curriculum of Canada or the US. It isn't taught.... and it isn't talked about in the media. How then can you say that it gets equal play in the minds of Canadians? What do you base your evidence on? Now if you stopped being willfully obtuse here, would you bet that walking on a crowded street and asking people about the holodomor would elicit equal responses then asking them about the Holocaust? You know, and I know, and I know that you know that I know: that for every 300 people who have heard about the holocaust there would be 1 or 2 who have heard something about the holodomor. And its no surprise as to why this is so: Ukrainians irked over genocide snub 1932 Holodomor left off T.O. board's list of atrocities Friday, June 13, 2008 By BRETT CLARKSON, SUN MEDIA "Leaders of an "insulted" Ukrainian community last night blasted the Toronto District School Board for approving a genocide class that doesn't include the 1932-33 Holodomor in its list of three atrocities to be studied in-depth. The TDSB last night unanimously approved the course design for the Grade 11 genocide class, which will focus mainly on three mass murders -- the 1915 Armenian genocide, the Holocaust, and the 1994 Rwandan genocide. But a board superintendent, Nadine Segal, said other genocides, including the current Darfur crisis as well as the Soviet-engineered Ukrainian Holodomor famine, will be touched upon in a broader, survey context. Students will have the opportunity to choose other genocides for independent study, Segal said. The three atrocities studied in-depth will introduce the students to the concept of genocides and crimes against humanity to give them the tools to look critically at the world and its atrocities, she said. "There's certainly no attempt to undermine anybody's tragedy or to suggest that anyone's suffering is less important than anyone else's, by focusing on the three that we did," Segal said. The Ukrainians at the packed meeting last night were angered by the decision because they want the Holodomor to be a core area of study in the course, while members of the Turkish-Canadian community were upset over the inclusion of the Armenian genocide. "We're insulted as a worldwide Ukrainian community, and we're insulted as a local community," said Markian Shwec, president of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress Toronto branch. "We have 100,000 people in Toronto, over 1.2 million Canadians are of Ukrainian descent, and we're being refused the opportunity to teach one of the worst tragedies of mankind (as a core component), so we are insulted." © 2008 Canoe Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Oleg,Benefits ? Most of what he's griping about is media attention, as if there's a favoured child in the family. I find it distasteful. If you want to mourn your people then you absolutely should. No one is stopping you from doing that, and most will be empathetic to that horror as well. The Jewish presence in American life is the reason for the attention from what I can see, what would you have us do about that ? They were systematically isolated for extinction based on their race, and he's complaining that they get movies made about them. It's disgusting, actually. I adore those that adhere faithfully to a relgion and culture who are good people. What most fail to realize is that Zionism has evolved in the last 60 years and has nothing to do with being Jewish. There are non-Jewish bankers that I know that are Zionists - They call it a "state of mind". What you and I find distasteful about what's his name is that he seems not to understand there are good and fine people that come in many molds - and race and relgion and or culture have nothing to do with a persons abiltity to be the best person they can be. Media attention that he seems to resent is due to the fact that if he knows his history - Hollywood oringated in New York City - a few Russian artists that happened to be Jewish wanted to create motion pictures...they were oppressed in New York so they went west and started from scratch. This particular bit of history explains why the entertainment industry might still be a bit top heavey as far as the Jewish factor is concerned. BUT as the old guard ages and dies this is changing - It only makes sense that if you are in the buisness and you are Jewish you are going to make art about yourself and what you know...It would be like labouring Italian immigrants out of the 50s being critized for eventually controling the construction trade - that's what they do...If say the two original movie makers where French - there would be a French bias in the family buisness decades later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Yet I have known about since high school. As usual you distort the ....ahem...obvious facts... http://www.ukemonde.com/holodomor/montreal_community.html http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news...38a&k=95553 http://nashholos.blogspot.com/2008/11/cana...nowledging.html Aren't you getting tired of being caught in lies? wth? by Fran Ponomarenko The Ukrainian Weekly, June 14, 1998, No. 24, Vol. LXVI ?!!?! I went to the march last summer, you have to point out to a the one instance it was minimally publicized ... 11 years ago?!?! 500 people!!?!?! you consider that a lot? How does that compare to the tens of thousands who visit the Holocaust Museum in montreal alone? oh that's right! HOLOCAUST memorial ... in MONTREAL of all places... one of many in canada, and the US... do you suppose there are as many such museums for the Holodomor? again how more deliberately dishonest can YOU be dancer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 The reason the Jews get more attention is because they were in the media buisness and the movie buisness for decades..so they publize their own cause more. If the Ukrainians controled Hollywood during it's golden era...then you would probably see more people at the Uke Memorial.....I did not know they had one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 I'm inclined to diagree given that the democratic strain of communism exists only in fantasyland while the victims of communism are in the tens of millions. They are not exactly victims of communism in the Marxist sense. The problem is that people call the systems that were in place in Russia and China communism. While it's true that they were de facto forms of communism, they are quite removed from the vision of Karl Marx. There is no way to avoid confusion because people generally aren't educated enough in the matter. I would surmise that most people think modern communist societies are Marxist. Marx, more than likely, would have completely denounced them. Personally, I think it's fair that they want to restrict the use of the word "communism" to blanketing criticism over parts of the ideology that have nothing to do with the horrible things that happened under communist regimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 again how more deliberately dishonest can YOU be dancer? Mea culpe... The other links are current. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 there is no democratic communist state and never has been.What could be more democratic than communism? While there may have never been a democratic communist state, even if there has been democratically elected communist leaders in South America, what could be more democratic than the ideals of commons and community? Power in the hands of people. That's not democratic? It could be argued that our current state is not any more democratic than a true communist state would be. Communism is egalitarian by nature. Under our current system, however, it could be argued that power is truly in the hands of a few powerful interests. The ideologies of Stalin and Mao were not the ideologies of Marx. Don't confuse their fascist dictatorships with Marxism proper. Those states are worthy of condemnation based on the atrocities that they committed. Although they were "communist" in a sense, it's dishonest to assume that those ideologies were proper communism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Corporate capitalists and communists are BOTH pushing the idea that "we are all one" - Like a damed religion. Where is an individual who does not want to be part of the massive and mindless collective to run? We are trapped on the left and on the right..Capitialist and Communists are now the same entity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 The fact is [Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao] were cold blooded killers blinded by theirmeglomania, paranoia and ability to find people to follow them blindly through both the imposition of fear and beneficial inducement using the goverment as their agent of coercion. I do not hear you stating facism and communism in that sense are equally as guilty and repugnant. I do see you however trying to prop facism by whipping communism. Some of us despise both for the same reasons. This thread really should have ended here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 This thread really should have ended here. Communists will kill you as quickly as possible if you get in the way. Capitalist will slowly and incrimentally murder your ass over a long period of time by putting you on the poverty black list...both kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) They are not exactly victims of communism in the Marxist sense. The problem is that people call the systems that were in place in Russia and China communism. While it's true that they were de facto forms of communism, they are quite removed from the vision of Karl Marx. There is no way to avoid confusion because people generally aren't educated enough in the matter. I would surmise that most people think modern communist societies are Marxist. Marx, more than likely, would have completely denounced them. Personally, I think it's fair that they want to restrict the use of the word "communism" to blanketing criticism over parts of the ideology that have nothing to do with the horrible things that happened under communist regimes. we could use similar and equally pathetic excuses for Nazism... Yeah sure National socialism in Germany was not the REAL sort of national socialism that was envisioned.... So really, the problem is that people call the system taht was in place in Germany "Nazism", while its true de facto, they were quite removed from the original aims of the NSDAP. the "red canaille" would-be commissars of the GULAG who use this lamentable excuse should fool no one. Of course the real crux of the case is that communism is not an applicable "ideology" to begin with... and is entirely unworkable... Marx's nonsense manifesto is a mere play on whims and christian social superstitions... while ostensibly "atheistic", marxism is nothing but a racifimento of Christianity... it is a cult, marxism is Christianity divested of its beliefs in the supernatural... Equality of men? Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth? trickery! verbal REFUSE!!! all of it! it is a global conspiracy... not a real political ideology. and the Conspiracy worked, brilliantly... and will again work on us if we do nothing. Comrade Obama and his internationalist handlers are already salivating at the coming feast of tax payer bourgeois. see what you're hope and change, Christian righteousness and humanitarian sentimentality have brought you? Edited October 21, 2009 by lictor616 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 So it wasn't Marxism, but you're going to call it that because it's the closest thing history has had? The Communist Manifesto was written less than 200 years ago and it is one of the most important political, social, historical, and economic works of all time. The "utopia" hasn't come and probably never will, but that doesn't make the argument any less valid, nor does it make the fascists in communist clothes Marxists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 So it wasn't Marxism, but you're going to call it that because it's the closest thing history has had? The Communist Manifesto was written less than 200 years ago and it is one of the most important political, social, historical, and economic works of all time. The "utopia" hasn't come and probably never will, but that doesn't make the argument any less valid, nor does it make the fascists in communist clothes Marxists. I often wonder why capitalist nations give support for people like Marx..giving him a place to live while he whips up his manifesto...in the end the communist system ends up being a large labour camp that capitalist profit from...You would think they planned it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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