Liberals Agonize Yet Again

[Keepitsimple]

Here we go again....but what's really interesting is that Senator David Smith, the man who convinced Mr. Ignatieff to come to Canada and run for PM, is now taking a leadership role - seemingly speaking on behalf of the elusive Mr. Ignatieff. IMO, this smacks of desperation on Smith's part - that his white knight has incurred more than a few scrapes, bruises and grass stains. There are more than a few rumblings that party divisions are starting to open up again.

OTTAWA - Michael Ignatieff seems destined to emerge from a Liberal caucus retreat this week feeling something like a pushmi-pullyu.

Like the fictional two-headed llama, the Liberal leader will be pushed and pulled in opposite directions as his MPs agonize over whether they should - finally - pull the plug on Stephen Harper's minority Conservative government.

For their part, MPs may well feel like they're caught in a bad remake of the movie Groundhog Day, doomed to relive the same should-we-or-shouldn't-we debate over and over and over again.

It's a debate they perfected during Stephane Dion's troubled tenure as leader, repeatedly rattling their election sabres only to sheath them grudgingly when dismal opinion polls and the party's own lack of preparedness forced them to back down.

The pattern has continued since Ignatieff took the helm last December.

Senator David Smith, the Liberals' national campaign co-chairman, is openly saying EI reform - over which Liberals and Conservatives have been squabbling all summer - is not a sufficient election trigger. And he's arguing it would be irresponsible to defeat the government at the first opportunity.

Link: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/liberals_election_timing

Edited August 30, 2009 by Keepitsimple

[punked]

Here we go again....but what's really interesting is that Senator David Smith, the man who convinced Mr. Ignatieff to come to Canada and run for PM, is now taking a leadership role - seemingly speaking on behalf of the elusive Mr. Ignatieff. IMO, this smacks of desperation on Smith's part - that his white knight has incurred more than a few scrapes, bruises and grass stains. There are more than a few rumblings that party divisions are starting to open up again.

Link: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/liberals_election_timing

I actually agree with everything you just said. Funny thing about the Liberal party right now is they don't want to take a position on anything in fear of in fighting happening again. If Ignatieff says anything the whole party just wont be behind him, the Liberals really need a uniter who doesn't do it by not talking ever.

[jdobbin]

Here we go again....but what's really interesting is that Senator David Smith, the man who convinced Mr. Ignatieff to come to Canada and run for PM, is now taking a leadership role - seemingly speaking on behalf of the elusive Mr. Ignatieff.

It wouldn't matter what position they took, you would be upset. You don't want an election but you call them out for not going for one.

[Keepitsimple]

It wouldn't matter what position they took, you would be upset. You don't want an election but you call them out for not going for one.

I never said that I didn't want an election - only that the Liberals are in an extremely difficult position to call - or not call one. If it wasn't such a wasteful exercise and an affront to what Canadians want, I'd say bring it on. And quite frankly, I couldn't care less what position they take. If they choose to bring down the government, fine......as everyone has said - posters and columnists alike - they have no policies and Mr. Ignatieff is still an unknown to Canadians. He might very well implode on his first campaign trail. If they choose not to bring down the government, fine - Mr. Ignatieff will be another year older and Canadians will be even more comfortable with Mr. Harper. I couldn't care less what the Liberals do. They have 77 seats - the Conservatives have 140.....the Liberals do not deserve even the small bit of attention they are getting. They need some serious uniting and policies. Good luck Dobbin.

[jdobbin]

I never said that I didn't want an election - only that the Liberals are in an extremely difficult position to call - or not call one. If it wasn't such a wasteful exercise and an affront to what Canadians want, I'd say bring it on.

The Liberals didn't call the last election. Do you think that one was wasteful?

And quite frankly, I couldn't care less what position they take. If they choose to bring down the government, fine......as everyone has said - posters and columnists alike - they have no policies and Mr. Ignatieff is still an unknown to Canadians. He might very well implode on his first campaign trail. If they choose not to bring down the government, fine - Mr. Ignatieff will be another year older and Canadians will be even more comfortable with Mr. Harper. I couldn't care less what the Liberals do. They have 77 seats - the Conservatives have 140.....the Liberals do not deserve even the small bit of attention they are getting. They need some serious uniting and policies. Good luck Dobbin.

Think the Liberals look more united now than ever. Fundraising is looking pretty decent as well. I suspect the caucus meeting will figure out how they want to unveil their platform and when to go an election.

It is doubtful they want to let Harper call it after the Olympics.

[punked]

Think the Liberals look more united now than ever. Fundraising is looking pretty decent as well. I suspect the caucus meeting will figure out how they want to unveil their platform and when to go an election.

It is doubtful they want to let Harper call it after the Olympics.

That gives us a no return date of Jan 10th I think because they wont want the Olympics to be the news when people to the polls either. I also don't think they will call until after third quarter being the start of October so they can get their 2 something million from the public financing. That is my opinion.

[Keepitsimple]

The Liberals didn't call the last election. Do you think that one was wasteful?

Think the Liberals look more united now than ever. Fundraising is looking pretty decent as well. I suspect the caucus meeting will figure out how they want to unveil their platform and when to go an election.

It is doubtful they want to let Harper call it after the Olympics.

Each election that doesn't change the makeup of Parliament is more wasteful than the last one. At least with the last one, Canadians showed that they wanted nothing to do with the Liberals' direction for the country and certainly nothing to do with their leader - to the tune of 140 seats to 77.

Although you might have a brave face with regards to Liberal party unity, even the Star sees the internal problems:

Ignatieff might not be an experienced politician, but he is not stupid. He is now between a rock and a hard place. On one side, there is the difficult task of articulating a specific agenda to propose to the electorate as an alternative to the one proposed by Harper. On the other side, there are ambitious advisers and some bored MPs wanting to prove themselves as new reformers. They are ready to take over the country.

But there is a third element that now is dangerously resurfacing in the Liberal party: the problem of unity. The defenestration of Paul Zed from the position of Ignatieff's chief of staff is only the tip of the iceberg.

Unlike the inner teams of Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin, the one supporting Ignatieff is not homogenous. Its members are together more because of personal friendship with the leader and common personal ambitions than common political agenda.

The phrase that was whispered most often to me this past week in Liberal quarters was, "the Martinites are back." This sounded more like a political anathema than a political statement.

So, unity is a problem as well as the organization. "We don't have 130 ridings where we have a reasonable chance to win and there is no political narrative around our leader who, as someone said, seems to have been in a witness protection program for the whole summer," another Liberal insider told me last week.

Link: http://www.thestar.com/article/688125

[jdobbin]

Each election that doesn't change the makeup of Parliament is more wasteful than the last one. At least with the last one, Canadians showed that they wanted nothing to do with the Liberals' direction for the country and certainly nothing to do with their leader - to the tune of 140 seats to 77.

I guess that is one way of looking at Harper returning with yet another minority. Remember, it wasn't the Liberals who called that election.

Although you might have a brave face with regards to Liberal party unity, even the Star sees the internal problems:

This is yet another story about the leader's office.

As the writer says, we'll see what occurs in the caucus meeting.

[Keepitsimple]

This is yet another story about the leader's office.

As the writer says, we'll see what occurs in the caucus meeting.

The leader's office is what it's all about.....because it's rapidly becoming clear that Mr. Ignatieff is just a puppet in front of the backroom boys and Senator David Smith. It's a shame.....or a sham.

[punked]

The leader's office is what it's all about.....because it's rapidly becoming clear that Mr. Ignatieff is just a puppet in front of the backroom boys and Senator David Smith. It's a shame.....or a sham.

Screw David smith what about the bankers that told Ignatieff he would not call a summer election.

[jdobbin]

The leader's office is what it's all about.....because it's rapidly becoming clear that Mr. Ignatieff is just a puppet in front of the backroom boys and Senator David Smith. It's a shame.....or a sham.

Okay, I guess it is settled. Vote Tory next election.

[Mr.Canada]

Ignatieff is spineless. He knows he'd get clobbered in an election. He'll never be PM. He;s waiting for HArper to make some massive mistake, but Harper won't he's far too crafty.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[Bryan]

Ignatieff is spineless. He knows he'd get clobbered in an election. He'll never be PM. He;s waiting for HArper to make some massive mistake, but Harper won't he's far too crafty.

If there's one thing Harper has proven, it's that if you think he's made a mistake, that only means you're looking in the wrong place. People said the fiscal update with the proposal to cancel vote subsidies was a mistake, based on the controversy that erupted. Yet, Harper's polling soared into the mid-50s at the time, he's still the PM, and the opposition leader lost his job and was replaced by someone even weaker.

Ignatieff is going to be even easier to beat than Dion was, and that's if he remains leader long enough to even run in an election. I still think he's going to just quit if things don't start going his way soon.

[myata]

Ignatieff could have taken Harper on principles - his (Harpers) little tricks with laws, democratic coalition, position on climate change, war in Afghanistan, international policy. Instead he's turning the party into a shadow of CPC on any important issue, and entering spin contest with its all time master. Godspeed.

[Smallc]

and was replaced by someone even weaker.

You keep seeing that, yet I've seen no evidence of it. Ignatieff may have his flaws, but he's much stronger than Dion, and the next election will be much closer.

[Mr.Canada]

If there's one thing Harper has proven, it's that if you think he's made a mistake, that only means you're looking in the wrong place. People said the fiscal update with the proposal to cancel vote subsidies was a mistake, based on the controversy that erupted. Yet, Harper's polling soared into the mid-50s at the time, he's still the PM, and the opposition leader lost his job and was replaced by someone even weaker.

Ignatieff is going to be even easier to beat than Dion was, and that's if he remains leader long enough to even run in an election. I still think he's going to just quit if things don't start going his way soon.

I thoroughly enjoy watching the Liberal supporters squirm. I remember before he was made leader just about everyone on MLW who wasn't a Tory supporter was trumpeting Ignatieff as the second coming, just about every second post was about how great a man he was, his great education. The fact that he has spent almost his entire adult life of 30+ years outside Canada didn't matter due to his his world experience. Now they are silent.

It makes me laugh.

[Keepitsimple]

A couple of items woth mentioning:

The final decision on whether to try to pull the plug on Prime Minister Stephen Harper's minority Conservative government is up to Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff.

"That decision has not been taken," Goodale said. "But there is a rising feeling in the country that this is a mediocre government and it's just not good enough."

It seems that the Conservatives have gone from being a terrible, dark force to being a mediocre government. I can't really think of any higher praise coming from the Opposition.

PS: I see this a lot and it bugs me.....decisions now appear to be "taken". Where exactly do they take them? What happened to making a decision? OK, I'll step down from my literary soapbox.

Some Liberals say Ignatieff will face a fatal blow to his leadership if he triggers an election and does not win at least a minority government.

There's a lot of truth to that......he'll likely only get one kick at the can. He's not getting any younger.

Link: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1945116

[Keepitsimple]

Is it sheer arrogance or is the man just not as smart as some people give him credit for? Here's a party with 77 seats to the government's 140 - the economy is recovering, and Canada is moving along quite nicely......and this guy says the government is on Life Support? Canadians will not stand for this. Mr. Ignatieff will soon be standing with two feet in his mouth.

Ignatieff says Tories on 'life support'

1 hour, 55 minutes ago

By The Canadian Press

SUDBURY - Michael Ignatieff says the Harper government is on "life support" - but he won't say when he'll try to pull the plug.

The Liberal leader says that decision will be made after discussions with MPs and senators at this week's caucus meeting in Sudbury which wraps up Wednesday.

Link: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090831/...ction?printer=1

[Smallc]

I think that someones dreaming if they believe that the Liberals are going to go anywhere but up in any subsequent election.

[Mr.Canada]

I'm still waiting for the chosen one to topple the terrible PM Harper.

[Smallc]

That would require an election, something that this country doesn't need at things time. I'm bit baffled by the lack of strategy by Ignatieff. I expect that he'll increase his party's seat count no matter what, but unless he has something up his sleeve, he isn't going to win with what he's currently been doing.

[Keepitsimple]

I think that someones dreaming if they believe that the Liberals are going to go anywhere but up in any subsequent election.

They'd better got more than 77 seats or they'll be in the wilderness for a lot longer that we all think. They couldn't possibly do as bad as last time, could they? But the point is, a little over a year ago, Canadians gave them 77 seats and the Conservatives 140.....and this guy, Mr. Ignatieff, has the nerve to first say the government is on "Probation" and now he says they're on "Life Support".....meanwhile he disappeared for the summer, his party has no platform, and now they're spewing out platitudes about a "Vision". Good luck to them

[Smallc]

The government is constantly on probation. Such is the tradition of responsible government, especially given the current minority context.

[capricorn]

This is what Ignatieff said in Sudbury about forcing an election and polls.

Ignatieff says the party's decision will be based on what's best for the country - and not on opinion polls.

http://www.680news.com/news/headlines/more...831_201059_5468

If we are to take him at his word, then why have the Liberals scheduled a pollster to give a detailed presentation on opinion polls?

Federal Liberals will get a detailed picture of the Canadian public-opinion landscape during this week's caucus retreat in Sudbury – a meeting bound to be pivotal in determining whether the country goes to the polls this year.

If the Sudbury polling presentation is in any way similar to the one the Liberals' provincial cousins in Ontario received last week – and chances are it is, given that it's coming from the same polling firm – there may be some sobering, second thoughts about the wisdom of provoking an election this fall.

Last week, in a closed-door presentation in Toronto, dozens of Ontario Liberal MPPs were treated to a presentation by Pollara president Don Guy, in which they reportedly learned it's been a good summer for Prime Minister Stephen Harper and the Conservative "brand."

---

It's up to Pollara's chairman and founder, Michael Marzolini, to lay out the numbers in Sudbury this week and say what they mean in the federal context. But Marzolini says election speculation is not a big part of his presentation.

"Of my 40 minutes, I'm only dedicating 10 seconds to the issue of when to call the election," Marzolini said yesterday. "After almost six years of continuous election speculation, the public really doesn't share our fixation."

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/688612

If, as Ignatieff said, polls won't affect the Liberal Party's decision on whether to cause an election, why have a 40 minute presentation on those numbers?

If polling numbers are so insignificant to the leader and the decision of going to election, wouldn't that 40 minutes and resulting discussion been better spent on other matters, like policy?

[jdobbin]

If polling numbers are so insignificant to the leader and the decision of going to election, wouldn't that 40 minutes and resulting discussion been better spent on other matters, like policy?

I believe that the Pollara questions are on policies that the Liberals sent to party headquarters in June.

I have seen some similar policy polls from Tory and NDP sources in the past.