Why do we discuss Canada's attempted cultural genocide as it's

[Riverwind]

Depends on the area they're being supported on an area the size of north America probably could. Although I prefer the low end of that estimate at more like 50 million.

Again. Highly unlikely given the lack of archaeological evidence for large settlements of people. For comparison Medieval Europe had a population of 70-100 million and that was with agricultural technology and domesticated animals that simply did not exist in North America.

[DogOnPorch]

Again. Highly unlikely given the lack of archaeological evidence for large settlements of people. For comparison Medieval Europe had a population of 70-100 million and that was with agricultural technology and domesticated animals that simply did not exist in North America.

Also, in areas like British Columbia, the tribes could only get as big as their food supply neighbors and terrain allowed. They were collections of a few hundred to several thousand then...and now. The real population centres of the Native American world were the Aztecs, Maya, Olmecs, etc, were civilization entered the late bronze/early iron age. They also suffered the worst from the initial contact with Europeans re: variola, the Spanish, et al.

[Bonam]

Claims of 100 million natives in North America are preposterous. The evidence would be overwhelming and incontrovertible if such a vast number had lived here.

[DogOnPorch]

Footnote: domestic animals and agriculture brought with it new diseases as cross infections/mutations led to many of the sicknesses associated with the 'New World/Old World' epidemics.

[Griz]

The fact that you call it BS just shows how brainwashed you are. The card was called a Blue Card or Enfranchisement Card.

I am going call BS on that one. Do you have a credible source? The RCAP report would have covered this issue if it was anything close to what you suggest.

In any case, you are constantly going on about how aboriginals are seperate nations which means you *want* the government to put up customs booths and at the border of the reserves and require passports to cross so you can hardly complain if the government did that in the past.

[Griz]

it still does not change the fact that they were here when the boats from Europe arrived. SO the question is why do all the dim-wit ass-backwards right-wing scientists try to prove otherwise? Sure they may prove Bering Strait but it still doesn't change the fact that the aboriginal people were here. They were the true leaders--all the chicken-shits stayed in Europe and let mama change their diaper right up until they got off the boat. Fasy fwd the clock a couple hundred years, now all those snotty nosed, soiled diaper types whine about indians on internet forums

Claims of 100 million natives in North America are preposterous. The evidence would be overwhelming and incontrovertible if such a vast number had lived here.

[Griz]

You still crouch over as though you have a diaper on too--it's called land squatter Legalized terrorist land squatter!

[tango]

Claims of 100 million natives in North America are preposterous. The evidence would be overwhelming and incontrovertible if such a vast number had lived here.

Ancient North America

There were hundreds of towns and cities all over ancient North America. Three were exceptionally large: Cahokia, Illinois; the Moundville Complex, spread out on the Black Warrior River in Alabama, and Etowah. These were simply the largest. There were many other important centres, as well as countless smaller towns and villages.

Cahokia's ruins lie on the Cahokia Creek near Collinsville, Illinois, U.S.A. At its height, around A.D. 1200, it had about the same population as London, England at the time, with over 10,000 people.

All of these sites were characterized by massive mounds of earth, remarkable constructions that must have taken many thousands of work-hours to produce.

There was a long history of cultural development in the American mid-west and south. The "Hopewell" culture complexes of 100 B.C. - A.D. 600 gave birth to the magnificent Missippians, who were at their peak when the Europeans arrived.

These urban and agricultural centres were destroyed when the Europeans arrived in North America, but the descendants of their builders have survived to this day.

...

Things to note:

* "Woodhenge": an ancient astronomical device, also called a "sun-circle" (in the upper-left)

* Artificial reservoirs

* Roads linking the city to outlying areas and other towns

* The palisaded (walled) "downtown" enclosure

* Temple complexes (reminiscent of Mesoamerican civilizations in Mexico and Central America)

* The "port", with boats and cargo canoes

* The ball-court, where various games were played (for sport or ritual) (also reminiscent of Mesoamerican civilizations in Mexico and Central America)

* The clusters or neighbourhoods of houses, showing some kind of clan, family, trade or other social-unit sub-organization, indicating a type of complex social structure

* The endless sea of farms, the wide extend of agriculture and areas under cultivation

http://pages.interlog.com/~gilgames/cahokia.htm

There is lots of evidence.

Edited August 20, 2009 by tango

[Bonam]

it still does not change the fact that they were here when the boats from Europe arrived. SO the question is why do all the dim-wit ass-backwards right-wing scientists try to prove otherwise? Sure they may prove Bering Strait but it still doesn't change the fact that the aboriginal people were here. They were the true leaders--all the chicken-shits stayed in Europe and let mama change their diaper right up until they got off the boat. Fasy fwd the clock a couple hundred years, now all those snotty nosed, soiled diaper types whine about indians on internet forums

Hmm, a post full of racial insults and stereotypes. Typical.

[Bonam]

...

Perhaps you'd like to condemn your buddy Griz whose every post is filled with hateful insults against people of European ancestry? Or is it only "racism" against natives that you condemn?

[Griz]

How is it sterotypical and racist when it's the truth? Oh I get it, everyone else can openly slam indians and it's normal? Yet when something is said about whites that is true, it is considered racist?

Hmm, a post full of racial insults and stereotypes. Typical.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Ancient North America

There were hundreds of towns and cities all over ancient North America. Three were exceptionally large: Cahokia, Illinois; the Moundville Complex, spread out on the Black Warrior River in Alabama, and Etowah. These were simply the largest. There were many other important centres, as well as countless smaller towns and villages.

Cahokia's ruins lie on the Cahokia Creek near Collinsville, Illinois, U.S.A. At its height, around A.D. 1200, it had about the same population as London, England at the time, with over 10,000 people.

All of these sites were characterized by massive mounds of earth, remarkable constructions that must have taken many thousands of work-hours to produce.

There was a long history of cultural development in the American mid-west and south. The "Hopewell" culture complexes of 100 B.C. - A.D. 600 gave birth to the magnificent Missippians, who were at their peak when the Europeans arrived.

These urban and agricultural centres were destroyed when the Europeans arrived in North America, but the descendants of their builders have survived to this day.

...

Things to note:

* "Woodhenge": an ancient astronomical device, also called a "sun-circle" (in the upper-left)

* Artificial reservoirs

* Roads linking the city to outlying areas and other towns

* The palisaded (walled) "downtown" enclosure

* Temple complexes (reminiscent of Mesoamerican civilizations in Mexico and Central America)

* The "port", with boats and cargo canoes

* The ball-court, where various games were played (for sport or ritual) (also reminiscent of Mesoamerican civilizations in Mexico and Central America)

* The clusters or neighbourhoods of houses, showing some kind of clan, family, trade or other social-unit sub-organization, indicating a type of complex social structure

* The endless sea of farms, the wide extend of agriculture and areas under cultivation

http://pages.interlog.com/~gilgames/cahokia.htm

There is lots of evidence.

That is Awesome so much for needing Iron age Agriculture.

Edited August 20, 2009 by TrueMetis

[Bonam]

They were the true leaders--all the chicken-shits stayed in Europe and let mama change their diaper right up until they got off the boat. Fasy fwd the clock a couple hundred years, now all those snotty nosed, soiled diaper types whine about indians on internet forums

it's the truth

Keep digging yourself deeper into your bigoted racist hole.

[tango]

Perhaps you'd like to condemn your buddy Griz whose every post is filled with hateful insults against people of European ancestry? Or is it only "racism" against natives that you condemn?

I'm not sure what Griz's game is, but I know he is not aboriginal. Maybe trying to make them look bad, though?

[Bonam]

I'm not sure what Griz's game is, but I know he is not aboriginal. Maybe trying to make them look bad, though?

Perhaps. Or more likely he is someone who shares your cause but is somewhat less tactful in expressing it. One certainly doesn't have to be aboriginal to hold hateful views of Caucasians.

[tango]

How is it sterotypical and racist when it's the truth? Oh I get it, everyone else can openly slam indians and it's normal? Yet when something is said about whites that is true, it is considered racist?

You are not doing Indigenous people any favours, Griz.

Stop pretending to speak for them, please. It's offensive.

[Griz]

Life isnt pretty. I'm not trying to do anybody a favour. I just tell it like it is

You are not doing Indigenous people any favours, Griz.

Stop pretending to speak for them, please. It's offensive.

[DogOnPorch]

I'm not sure what Griz's game is, but I know he is not aboriginal.

Says he's not more like...

[tango]

Perhaps. Or more likely he is someone who shares your cause but is somewhat less tactful in expressing it. One certainly doesn't have to be aboriginal to hold hateful views of Caucasians.

On a more interesting topic ...

did you check this out yet bonam?

http://pages.interlog.com/~gilgames/cahokia.htm

[tango]

Life isnt pretty. I'm not trying to do anybody a favour. I just tell it like it is

Tell your own story.

[DogOnPorch]

On a more interesting topic ...

did you check this out yet bonam?

http://pages.interlog.com/~gilgames/cahokia.htm

Neat. But it isn't Chicago circa 1920.

[Bonam]

On a more interesting topic ...

did you check this out yet bonam?

http://pages.interlog.com/~gilgames/cahokia.htm

Yes I did. I went over to the wikipedia article about Cahokia actually. Quite interesting, and I do admit I didn't know about it. Although, from what I've quickly gathered, Cahokia's population may have peaked at 8000-40000 people, and it was in decline long before Europeans arrived.

Nevertheless, I would contend that the evidence is not there to give any credibility to estimates of 100 million inhabitants in North America circa 1500. If you have links to any credible studies that contend otherwise I'll take a look.

[Riverwind]

http://pages.interlog.com/~gilgames/cahokia.htm

First, thanks I learned something new.

But it appears that this civilization was gone before the Europeans showed up - much like the Olmec.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia

Cahokia was abandoned a century or more before Europeans arrived in North America in the early 1500s. Scholars have proposed environmental factors such as over-hunting and deforestation as explanations. Another possible cause is invasion by outside peoples, though the only evidence of warfare found so far is the wooden stockade and watchtowers that enclosed Cahokia's main ceremonial precinct. Due to the lack of other evidence for warfare, the palisade appears to have been more for ritual or formal separation than for military purposes. Diseases transmitted among the large, dense urban population are another possible cause of decline. Many recent theories propose conquest-induced political collapse as the primary reason for Cahokia’s abandonment.[13]

Given the timing it is possible that climate change was a factor since many civilizations in the world disappeared around the same time as the world cooled after a period of warmth called the Medieval Warming Period.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes I did. I went over to the wikipedia article about Cahokia actually. Quite interesting, and I do admit I didn't know about it. Although, from what I've quickly gathered, Cahokia's population may have peaked at 8000-40000 people, and it was in decline long before Europeans arrived.

Nevertheless, I would contend that the evidence is not there to give any credibility to estimates of 100 million inhabitants in North America circa 1500. If you have links to any credible studies that contend otherwise I'll take a look.

Reminds me of Old Sarum from Ancient Briton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Sarum

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/upload/...9_1MB_SMALL.jpg

Edited August 20, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[tango]

Yes I did. I went over to the wikipedia article about Cahokia actually. Quite interesting, and I do admit I didn't know about it. Although, from what I've quickly gathered, Cahokia's population may have peaked at 8000-40000 people, and it was in decline long before Europeans arrived.

Nevertheless, I would contend that the evidence is not there to give any credibility to estimates of 100 million inhabitants in North America circa 1500. If you have links to any credible studies that contend otherwise I'll take a look.

I'm not trying to prove that. I don't know. I'm just providing information about the established civilizations in North America prior to 'contact'.

I found this statement fascinating:

At its height, around A.D. 1200, it had about the same population as London, England at the time, with over 10,000 people.

There are many other 'mound people' locations too.

And there are the petroglyphs in Ontario

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dgarneau/indian6.htm

1,000 B.C.

The Ojibwa are believed to have created rock carvings in Petroglyphs Provincial Park, Ontario starting about this time. Joe Lister suggests; "Actually, the glyphs were made by the Iroquois peoples who inhabited the area long before the Ojibwe arrived. The Ojibwe from Curve Lake Reserve help to caretake the area, and hold ceremony there, but they do not know any of the stories that the images represent. The Iroquois, on the other hand, do know the images, and can tell the stories behind most of them. For instance, our creation story is there, with Sky Woman birthing her twins."

I just think we should be willing to learn about and understand the cultures that existed here, before we 'interfered' with them.

There is a whole lot more to their story, and ours, than we are 'encouraged' to know.

Edited August 20, 2009 by tango