Manitoba NDP denies request

punked · August 12, 2009

We have company medical insurance plans in Canada already. If the government doesn't want to fund something or can't, why get in the way?
The single payer system doesn't pay for pharmacy or dental. Why can't we buy it for surgeries like knees and sex changes?

Becuase it wouldn't help. Do you understand how insurance works? You pay into a big pool in case you need it, and if you don't need it the insurance company profit. What person who does not want a sex change would pay into a pool in case they need it? No one? Well what about those who do well if those who don't need it don't pay it will cost the same amount+over head for those who do. See what I am saying you would be paying more. That is why no one offers it in the US becuase why in god name would you pick the insurance plan that covers sex change operations if you never plan on getting one. It would kill the insurance company, or those who payed for it would have such a high fee it would be pointless. It doesn't make any sense Dobbin. Explain to me how it would work.

I'd like to see the option where none exists now.
In Alberta it has been completely de-listed. In Manitoba, it is not funded fully.

The only option people have now are no public care or pay out of their own pockets.

In short, we have company plans already. Give people the option of buying insurance through their companies that do cover it.

I have shown you it is available. You are saying it is impossible. Why is it impossible if we can do it for pharmacy and dental?

Becuase Pharmacy and Dental everyone needs at some time or other so they everyone will pay into the pool. I would never pay into the pool for a sex change becuase I will never need one. See what I am saying it is simple honestly ask yourself why out off all the insurance plans in the US it is a news story that one covers it? Becuase none do.

jdobbin · August 12, 2009

Becuase it wouldn't help. Do you understand how insurance works? You pay into a big pool in case you need it, and if you don't need it the insurance company profit. What person who does not want a sex change would pay into a pool in case they need it? No one? Well what about those who do well if those who don't need it don't pay it will cost the same amount+over head for those who do. See what I am saying you would be paying more. That is why no one offers it in the US becuase why in god name would you pick the insurance plan that covers sex change operations if you never plan on getting one. It would kill the insurance company, or those who payed for it would have such a high fee it would be pointless. It doesn't make any sense Dobbin. Explain to me how it would work.

It is part of a medical condition. How it is that company insurance plans elsewhere can offer it? Answer me that? A growing number are covering the cost such as Goldman Sachs and Bank of America. More large companies are doing.

Becuase Pharmacy and Dental everyone needs at some time or other so they everyone will pay into the pool. I would never pay into the pool for a sex change becuase I will never need one. See what I am saying it is simple honestly ask yourself why out off all the insurance plans in the US it is a news story that one covers it? Becuase none do.

Obviously the plans in the U.S. aren't exclusive to just that. They cover a wide range of medical conditions. Just as any plan does the same thing.

I think the only option you say is available is private payment, no insurance.

punked · August 12, 2009

It is part of a medical condition. How it is that company insurance plans elsewhere can offer it? Answer me that? A growing number are covering the cost such as Goldman Sachs and Bank of America. More large companies are doing.

Answer you what? That is a company benefit and no one ever said that if companies in Canada wanted to offer it they couldn't you made that up.

Obviously the plans in the U.S. aren't exclusive to just that. They cover a wide range of medical conditions. Just as any plan does the same thing.
I think the only option you say is available is private payment, no insurance.

No insurance company in their right mind would cover that. It would kill their bottom line. Your solution isn't a solution because it does no have a large enough base paying into it for it to work. Yes Large companies which make large amounts of money and need to keep their best people offer perks I get that. They can do that in Canada too.

jdobbin · August 12, 2009

Answer you what? That is a company benefit and no one ever said that if companies in Canada wanted to offer it they couldn't you made that up.

Provinces have to authorize insurance for procedures as they do in Quebec. They do insure for knees, hips and other orthopedic work.

No insurance company in their right mind would cover that. It would kill their bottom line. Your solution isn't a solution because it does no have a large enough base paying into it for it to work. Yes Large companies which make large amounts of money and need to keep their best people offer perks I get that. They can do that in Canada too.

I hear a lot of talk but if no insurance company will do it, don't get in the way if there is a possibility of doing. Let them decide.

The rules in Manitoba are no private insurance for things like knee surgeries, etc. They do it have insurance for it in Quebec.

Let the private companies decide if they will cover it. In the U.S., some companies are indeed looking at in. They are doing so because the AMA has said such coverage should be fully funded for medical reasons.

Edited August 12, 2009 by jdobbin

Smallc · August 12, 2009

The rules in Manitoba are no private insurance for things like knee surgeries, etc.

That's not true. You can buy insurance that will cover you if you wait too long.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=cp...;show_article=1

Edited August 12, 2009 by Smallc

jdobbin · August 12, 2009

That's not true. You can buy insurance that will cover you if you wait too long.

In Manitoba? Where?

They only have it in Quebec for three procedures. I know of no such program in Manitoba.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/ind...s=M1ARTM0012787

Ontario and Manitoba also outlaw private insurance, but will refund amounts paid by patients to doctors who opt out of the public plan.

The problem as outlined is that the provinces will not allow doctors to operate in public and private systems. They have to opt out completely.

Edited August 12, 2009 by jdobbin

Smallc · August 12, 2009

It was in the free press last year. A company out of Alberta provides it. I linked to a BC story about it. The plan doesn't seem to be completely within the rules, but it is allowed to operate.

punked · August 12, 2009

Provinces have to authorize insurance for procedures as they do in Quebec. They do insure for knees, hips and other orthopedic work.
I hear a lot of talk but if no insurance company will do it, don't get in the way if there is a possibility of doing. Let them decide.

The rules in Manitoba are no private insurance for things like knee surgeries, etc. They do it have insurance for it in Quebec.

Let the private companies decide if they will cover it. In the U.S., some companies are indeed looking at in. They are doing so because the AMA has said such coverage should be fully funded for medical reasons.

They wont do it. Companies can offer it now, but they wont becuase it wont make any money Dobbin. Tell me how it would make money please do. The reason they don't cover it in America is that is pricey so pricey you can't offer an affordable insurance plan which includes it.

jdobbin · August 12, 2009

It was in the free press last year. A company out of Alberta provides it. I linked to a BC story about it. The plan doesn't seem to be completely within the rules, but it is allowed to operate.

I just checked. It only allows doctors who operate privately and it only allows a certain amount of procedures.

There are few doctors who operate solely in the private sector as has been mentioned in the story I posted on Quebec.

Obviously, if the province won't do things or can't do them, they should stop being an impediment to private companies by setting a time frame where the insurance can be valid, telling people what doctor they can use or limiting it to certain procedures.

jdobbin · August 12, 2009

They wont do it. Companies can offer it now, but they wont becuase it wont make any money Dobbin. Tell me how it would make money please do. The reason they don't cover it in America is that is pricey so pricey you can't offer an affordable insurance plan which includes it.

Why not let the insurance companies decide? At the moment, the provinces put up roadblocks to their operations.

Smallc · August 12, 2009

Obviously, if the province won't do things or can't do them, they should stop being an impediment to private companies by setting a time frame where the insurance can be valid, telling people what doctor they can use or limiting it to certain procedures.

So we should end single payer then? Is that your plan?

jdobbin · August 12, 2009

So we should end single payer then? Is that your plan?

We already have it when we de-list programs. It becomes public or private (as in you pay).

Edited August 12, 2009 by jdobbin

punked · August 12, 2009

We already have it when we de-list programs. It becomes public or private (as in you pay).

If Paul Martin didn't cut the funding from the Federal side to nothing Provinces would not have to make these decisions although you say nothing of that.

jdobbin · August 12, 2009

If Paul Martin didn't cut the funding from the Federal side to nothing Provinces would not have to make these decisions although you say nothing of that.

If the provinces hadn't cut taxes instead of funding health, we would not have to make these decisions. Do you know how many cuts Doer has made?

Look, in short you are saying the provinces can't afford it. You are saying private insurance doesn't want it but we see insurance would like to offer a wide range of services but are limited by government.

The choice for someone with the disorder. Wait to see if coverage will happen if ever. Pay for it privately.

This is two tier medicine.

Edited August 12, 2009 by jdobbin

punked · August 12, 2009

If the provinces hadn't cut taxes instead of funding health, we would not have to make these decisions. Do you know how many cuts Doer has made?

I know tax revenue has gone up during Doer tenure so I think you need a different arguement there.

jdobbin · August 12, 2009

I know tax revenue has gone up during Doer tenure so I think you need a different arguement there.

Blaming the feds for the entire problem is not going to work. The provinces set the criteria.

punked · August 12, 2009

Blaming the feds for the entire problem is not going to work. The provinces set the criteria.

And they say they can afford it. I don't blame them. They had it in Alberta and they said they couldn't afford it. Again the Feds should be paying a lot more then they are. I don't want to see provinces have long waiting lists for surgeries, I don't want them to have say to some who has a disorder "sorry but right now paying for heart surgery, and burn victims takes president in a cash strapped system." When it comes down to it though people are getting the care they need in this system despite the fact the Federal government of the 80's and 90's downloaded the system so much the provinces have to do it all themselves. Premiers make hard decisions it is why we vote them in, and I agree with you I would like to see this program covered but the roads have to paved and children educated. It sucks but that is the way it is. I don't think we should go away from single payer becuase of this I think we should encourage the Feds to live up to their part of the deal you with me?

jdobbin · August 12, 2009

And they say they can afford it. I don't blame them. They had it in Alberta and they said they couldn't afford it. Again the Feds should be paying a lot more then they are. I don't want to see provinces have long waiting lists for surgeries, I don't want them to have say to some who has a disorder "sorry but right now paying for heart surgery, and burn victims takes president in a cash strapped system." When it comes down to it though people are getting the care they need in this system despite the fact the Federal government of the 80's and 90's downloaded the system so much the provinces have to do it all themselves. Premiers make hard decisions it is why we vote them in, and I agree with you I would like to see this program covered but the roads have to paved and children educated. It sucks but that is the way it is. I don't think we should go away from single payer becuase of this I think we should encourage the Feds to live up to their part of the deal you with me?

We are already going away from the single pay system.

Public pay and private pay (you pay). That is two tier. No getting around it.

punked · August 12, 2009

We are already going away from the single pay system.
Public pay and private pay (you pay). That is two tier. No getting around it.

You are right the system needs more funding so you are admitting Martin killed the system in the 90's.

jdobbin · August 12, 2009

You are right the system needs more funding so you are admitting Martin killed the system in the 90's.

I admit he cut but the choices are provincial.

And the choices many provinces made was to cut taxes and not fund areas of health.

punked · August 12, 2009

I admit he cut but the choices are provincial.
And the choices many provinces made was to cut taxes and not fund areas of health.

But tax revenue went up so they have more money to work with Dobbin. Face it the province can't fund everything when it does not have the money. Canada has always covered only 70% of medical costs. That is a fact from the time single payer was implemented but with the money the Federal Government promised the provinces they could have covered 100% alas it wasn't meant to be that money took a back door to "saving Quebec" and "saving he fishing industry".

Insurance wont cover everything either, in the US this is not covered by private insurance plans.

jdobbin · August 12, 2009

But tax revenue went up so they have more money to work with Dobbin. Face it the province can't fund everything when it does not have the money. Canada has always covered only 70% of medical costs. That is a fact from the time single payer was implemented but with the money the Federal Government promised the provinces they could have covered 100% alas it wasn't meant to be that money took a back door to "saving Quebec" and "saving he fishing industry".

I have shown you a link already that the percentage has been dropping down since that the 1970s. That would happen to coincide with times the NDP supported the Liberals.

On the provincial front, the government didn't necessarily put the money into health when they cut taxes. The choice was always with the provinces.

Insurance wont cover everything either, in the US this is not covered by private insurance plans.

Never said insurance would cover everything. However, we do know insurance may be an answer for services de-listed. What other option is there for people? Even if lots of money continues to go to health from federal and provinces, it doesn't necessarily mean that we can fund pharmacy and every diagnostic or surgery.

We do have two tier in the country. Public and out of your pocket and if you are lucky, you can also have some insurance.

punked · August 12, 2009

I have shown you a link already that the percentage has been dropping down since that the 1970s. That would happen to coincide with times the NDP supported the Liberals.
On the provincial front, the government didn't necessarily put the money into health when they cut taxes. The choice was always with the provinces.

No one supported the Liberals, or the Conservatives in the 80's and 90's when the largest cuts were made and you know that. It is a cash strapped system and someday a hard choice will have to be made but believe me if they ever move on single payer I will fight will all the energy I have to keep it. The Feds need to live up to their part of the bargain they wont though.

Never said insurance would cover everything. However, we do know insurance may be an answer for services de-listed. What other option is there for people? Even if lots of money continues to go to health from federal and provinces, it doesn't necessarily mean that we can fund pharmacy and every diagnostic or surgery.
We do have two tier in the country. Public and out of your pocket and if you are lucky, you can also have some insurance.

No one is going to touch sex change surgery it is too costly someone would have to pay into insurance for their entire life to make it worth it for them. It is why they don't cover it in the US. You keep moving the goal posts on this discussion and you are still not making a point.

jdobbin · August 12, 2009

No one supported the Liberals, or the Conservatives in the 80's and 90's when the largest cuts were made and you know that. It is a cash strapped system and someday a hard choice will have to be made but believe me if they ever move on single payer I will fight will all the energy I have to keep it. The Feds need to live up to their part of the bargain they wont though.

There were large reductions in the 1970s too. I showed you think once before.

No one is going to touch sex change surgery it is too costly someone would have to pay into insurance for their entire life to make it worth it for them. It is why they don't cover it in the US. You keep moving the goal posts on this discussion and you are still not making a point.

You keep denying what I have already shown you.

Shady · August 12, 2009

I admit he cut but the choices are provincial.

That's how Martin and the Liberals achieved their balanced budgets. On the backs of the Province's ability to provide healthcare. They cut funding to the bone. And then he has the nerve to criticize provinces for struggling, while at the same time, Liberals were shoveling money to their cronies, and buying $100 dollar golf balls.