Re-imagining Palestine

[tango]

Re-imagining Palestine

Self determination, Ethical De-colonization and Equality[1]

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/22158

July 29, 2009 By Omar Barghouti

INTRODUCTION

With Yassir Arafat's departure, the doubling of the population of Jewish-Israeli colonial settlers in the occupied Palestinian territory, the latest Israeli slow genocide in Gaza and the fast disintegration of the last vestiges of Israeli "democracy," the two-state "solution" for the Palestinian-Israeli colonial conflict is finally dead. Good riddance! This was never a moral or practical solution to start with, as its main objective has always been to win official Palestinian legitimization of Israel's colonial and apartheid existence on top of most of the area of historic Palestine. It is high time to move on to the most just, morally sound and sustainable solution: the secular, democratic unitary state.

This is the first time I've seen this concept in print, though Palestinian friends have expressed it.

If Israel is a democratic state, it cannot be solely "a Jewish state". It consists of indigenous Palestinians as well, many of whom have been forced out but those remaining must have a voice in a true democracy.

Israel is a state under military law, where expansion of settlements beyond its borders is an all consuming goal. Israel wants to take over Palestinian territories and rule them in an autocratic and discriminatory style that is anti-democratic.

I agree with the writer that the only long term solution is a secular, democratic unitary state.

There's a long way to go before that is possible, but it started this year with the fall from grace of Israel the Jewish state due to its unconscionable attack on Gaza.

In my opinion, Israel was never granted the right to displace Palestinians. Jews were granted the right to return to Palestine and find a way to live peacefully with their neighbours, but that hasn't happened.

Edited July 31, 2009 by tango

[DogOnPorch]

Re-imagining Palestine

Self determination, Ethical De-colonization and Equality[1]

July 29, 2009 By Omar Barghouti

INTRODUCTION

With Yassir Arafat's departure, the doubling of the population of Jewish-Israeli colonial settlers in the occupied Palestinian territory, the latest Israeli slow genocide in Gaza and the fast disintegration of the last vestiges of Israeli "democracy," the two-state "solution" for the Palestinian-Israeli colonial conflict is finally dead. Good riddance! This was never a moral or practical solution to start with, as its main objective has always been to win official Palestinian legitimization of Israel's colonial and apartheid existence on top of most of the area of historic Palestine. It is high time to move on to the most just, morally sound and sustainable solution: the secular, democratic unitary state.

This is the first time I've seen this concept in print, though Palestinian friends have expressed it.

If Israel is a democratic state, it cannot be solely "a Jewish state". It consists of indigenous Palestinians as well, many of whom have been forced out but those remaining must have a voice in a true democracy.

Israel is a state under military law, where expansion of settlements beyond its borders is an all consuming goal. Israel wants to take over Palestinian territories and rule them in an autocratic and discriminatory style that is anti-democratic.

I agree with the writer that the only long term solution is a secular, democratic unitary state.

There's a long way to go before that is possible, but it started this year with the fall from grace of Israel the Jewish state due to its unconscionable attack on Gaza.

Yeah...all those damn Jewish settlers in Gaza getting in the way.

[M.Dancer]

When I re-imagine Palestine, I see a larger Jordan and Egypt and the 20th century dawning for the Arabs.

[tango]

When I re-imagine Palestine, I see a larger Jordan and Egypt and the 20th century dawning for the Arabs.

Such hatred is not attractive, and is unwarranted.

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/22158

UNGA Resolution 3236, of 22 November 1974, elevates the applicability of the right to self determination to the people of Palestine to an "inalienable" right. The Resolution:

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

( The right to national independence and sovereignty;

2. Reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return;

3. Emphasizes that full respect for and the realization of these inalienable rights of the Palestinian people are indispensable for the solution of the question of Palestine ... .

It was never intended that the Palestine home of Arabs would be taken from them and they displaced forever. It was intended that the returning Jews would find a way, other than genocide, to live with their neighbours.

The mentality that says Palestinians should just disappear as a people and become Jordanian or Egyptian is the same mentality that says the Indigenous Peoples of Canada should just assimilate and become Canadians and give up all claim to their land.

It just is not feasible.

In fact, I haven't seen any hard line supporters of Israel even propose any feasible solution. The only solution suggested is genocide, and that just isn't feasible, especially now that the world is better informed about Israeli aggression.

Israel lost it and committed crimes that cannot be overlooked, made its uncompromising genocide agenda clear to the world.

Edited July 31, 2009 by tango

[Bonam]

This is the first time I've seen this concept in print, though Palestinian friends have expressed it.

More evidence that you are not well versed on the subject. The idea of the "one state solution" has been around for a long time, and has been widely discussed and discredited by those with neutral points of view and widely supported by Arab supremacists.

The flaw with it is obvious, in that Jews would quickly become a minority group, lose power in the government, and become victims to the Palestinian Arabs, who will exact vengeance for the perceived wrongs of the Jews. That vengeance will of course consist of driving the Jews into the sea, and killing them to the last one, as the Arabs of Palestine have oft promised to do.

If Israel is a democratic state, it cannot be solely "a Jewish state".

The entire purpose of Israel is to be a Jewish state. That is its only reason for existence, it is the only thing it can be. There are dozens of Arab/Muslim states, some of which are democracies to various extents, in which there is nevertheless no question that the Arab/Muslim character of the state is to be preserved.

Why can the Jews not have such a state?

Oh wait, I forgot, because Jews can't have anything. They can't defend themselves, they can't have a state, they can't even participate in the media or in finance without drawing hatred and criticism, with antisemitism reawakening everywhere these days. You need only look at the rants of your buddy lictor616 on the topic.

Israel is a state under military law, where expansion of settlements beyond its borders is an all consuming goal.

No, Israel is a parliamentary democracy, that offers better livelihoods and more freedoms to its people than any other state in the region. Jews, Christians, and Arabs can all live in Israel, enjoy full citizenship, and hold political office. Show me an Arab country with a Jewish elected representative please.

Israel wants to take over Palestinian territories and rule them in an autocratic and discriminatory style that is anti-democratic.

Yes, Israel wants to take them over. That's why they pulled out of Gaza and evicted all their settlers. That's why they've offered the Palestinians a state consisting of both Gaza and the West Bank on numerous occasions.

I agree with the writer that the only long term solution is a secular, democratic unitary state.

Then you also agree with the writer that Jews should live forever as minorities in the lands of others, forever to be hated and subjugated. Sorry, but I don't agree.

There's a long way to go before that is possible, but it started this year with the fall from grace of Israel the Jewish state due to its unconscionable attack on Gaza.

"Fall from grace"? What are you, some religious wacko? Israel is and has been doing the same thing since its creation, defending itself against the surrounding hostile foes, who have a hundred times the population and a thousand times the land area. And doing a good job of it too.

In my opinion, Israel was never granted the right to displace Palestinians. Jews were granted the right to return to Palestine and find a way to live peacefully with their neighbours, but that hasn't happened.

Rights are not "granted". Who "granted" the Europeans the right to colonize the world? Who "granted" the Americans the "right" to rebel and become an independent nation? And yet these things happen, and are now part of history, and their consequences are accepted. People take for themselves what is right and build for themselves a world they can live in. It is the way the world works, and the way it has always worked.

This the Israeli Jews have accomplished, while the Palestinian Arabs have seethed in mindless rage. It is time they take their own responsibility for their own lives and build their state in Gaza and the West Bank, rather than squandering what resources they have on rockets aimed to kill civilians, and to which the borders of Israel will soon be impermeable anyway.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Bonam

[M.Dancer]

Such hatred is not attractive, and is unwarranted.

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/22158

UNGA Resolution 3236, of 22 November 1974, elevates the applicability of the right to self determination to the people of Palestine to an "inalienable" right.

A General assembly resolution has all the weight of a feather and the legal power force of a polite suggestion.

It was never intended that the Palestine home of Arabs would be taken from them and they displaced forever. It was intended that the returning Jews would find a way, other than genocide, to live with their neighbours.

It hasn't and they haven't.

The attitude of the Arabs is: We've lost every war we started but we still feel we should have the fruits of victory.

If the Arabs want to prosper they have to choose peace over pizza parlour bombings amd embrace 20th century values.

[tango]

More evidence that you are not well versed on the subject. The idea of the "one state solution" has been around for a long time, and has been widely discussed and discredited by those with neutral points of view and widely supported by Arab supremacists.

The flaw with it is obvious, in that Jews would quickly become a minority group, lose power in the government, and become victims to the Palestinian Arabs, who will exact vengeance for the perceived wrongs of the Jews. That vengeance will of course consist of driving the Jews into the sea, and killing them to the last one, as the Arabs of Palestine have oft promised to do.

That's just speculation. It would have to be negotiated and internationally monitored.

The entire purpose of Israel is to be a Jewish state. That is its only reason for existence, it is the only thing it can be. There are dozens of Arab/Muslim states, some of which are democracies to various extents, in which there is nevertheless no question that the Arab/Muslim character of the state is to be preserved.

Why can the Jews not have such a state?

Oh wait, I forgot, because Jews can't have anything. They can't defend themselves, they can't have a state, they can't even participate in the media or in finance without drawing hatred and criticism, with antisemitism reawakening everywhere these days. You need only look at the rants of your buddy lictor616 on the topic.

lictor the nazi-like character is no friend of mine. Israel can have whatever they obtain legally. However, the land expansion is not legal and is aggressive and oppressive. The attack on Gazans, trapped in a small slice of land, was indefensible and unfortunately means that Israel has lost much support around the world and will be monitored much more closely and will not be believed without verification.

Why is it OK for Israel to drive Palestinians into the sea if not the reverse?

No, Israel is a parliamentary democracy, that offers better livelihoods and more freedoms to its people than any other state in the region. Jews, Christians, and Arabs can all live in Israel, enjoy full citizenship, and hold political office. Show me an Arab country with a Jewish elected representative please.

Yes, Israel wants to take them over. That's why they pulled out of Gaza and evicted all their settlers. That's why they've offered the Palestinians a state consisting of both Gaza and the West Bank on numerous occasions.

Then you also agree with the writer that Jews should live forever as minorities in the lands of others, forever to be hated and subjugated. Sorry, but I don't agree.

"Fall from grace"? What are you, some religious wacko? Israel is and has been doing the same thing since its creation, defending itself against the surrounding hostile foes, who have a hundred times the population and a thousand times the land area. And doing a good job of it too.

It's unfortunate Israel cannot figure out a way to live in peace, without expansion and without blockading supplies to Gaza. The "eye for an eye" attitude is a recipe for continuing war. Sooner or later, Israel will lose all support because of aggression. They are not just defending, they are attempting to expand, and that's not acceptable.

Rights are not "granted". Who "granted" the Europeans the right to colonize the world?

The Pope thinks he did.

Who "granted" the Americans the "right" to rebel and become an independent nation? And yet these things happen, and are now part of history, and their consequences are accepted. People take for themselves what is right and build for themselves a world they can live in. It is the way the world works, and the way it has always worked.

This the Israeli Jews have accomplished, while the Palestinian Arabs have seethed in mindless rage. It is time they take their own responsibility for their own lives and build their state in Gaza and the West Bank, rather than squandering what resources they have on rockets aimed to kill civilians, and to which the borders of Israel will soon be impermeable anyway.

They cannot build a state in Gaza. They cannot even fix their sewers or feed their children unless Israel stops the siege and allows materials and supplies in.

I ask again ... what feasible solution can you offer?

[M.Dancer]

Why is it OK for Israel to drive Palestinians into the sea if not the reverse?

When did they try? Israel is home to the largest peaceful arab democracy on the planet.

[tango]

When did they try? Israel is home to the largest peaceful arab democracy on the planet.

Jan 2009

[M.Dancer]

Jan 2009

Was that answer an attempt at slapstick humour?

If you want to be taken more serioulsy that Dub, you shouldn't try to sound even stupider than Dub.

[Remiel]

When I re-imagine Palestine, I see a larger Jordan and Egypt and the 20th century dawning for the Arabs.

Even if we imagine for a second that that would be politically possible, the "West Bank" rejoining Jordan would run into all the same problems with contiguity and dimensions that the West Bank turning into its own state would.

[Rue]

Re-imagining Palestine

Self determination, Ethical De-colonization and Equality[1]

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/22158

July 29, 2009 By Omar Barghouti

INTRODUCTION

With Yassir Arafat's departure, the doubling of the population of Jewish-Israeli colonial settlers in the occupied Palestinian territory, the latest Israeli slow genocide in Gaza and the fast disintegration of the last vestiges of Israeli "democracy," the two-state "solution" for the Palestinian-Israeli colonial conflict is finally dead. Good riddance! This was never a moral or practical solution to start with, as its main objective has always been to win official Palestinian legitimization of Israel's colonial and apartheid existence on top of most of the area of historic Palestine. It is high time to move on to the most just, morally sound and sustainable solution: the secular, democratic unitary state.

This is the first time I've seen this concept in print, though Palestinian friends have expressed it.

If Israel is a democratic state, it cannot be solely "a Jewish state". It consists of indigenous Palestinians as well, many of whom have been forced out but those remaining must have a voice in a true democracy.

Israel is a state under military law, where expansion of settlements beyond its borders is an all consuming goal. Israel wants to take over Palestinian territories and rule them in an autocratic and discriminatory style that is anti-democratic.

I agree with the writer that the only long term solution is a secular, democratic unitary state.

There's a long way to go before that is possible, but it started this year with the fall from grace of Israel the Jewish state due to its unconscionable attack on Gaza.

In my opinion, Israel was never granted the right to displace Palestinians. Jews were granted the right to return to Palestine and find a way to live peacefully with their neighbours, but that hasn't happened.

Your lack of awareness of dhimmitude and therefore what is behind the above statement by Arafat

shows in your bias comments.

How is it you refer to Jews wanting the right to a state apartheid, but when the Muslim world demands

all its states be Muslim, you selectively ignore that?

How is it you accuse Israel of being apartheid but completely ignore the actual apartheid system in place

in most Muslim states today because of the lack of seperation between state and religion and the concepts of

sharia law which enshrine in their state institutions second class citizenship for non Muslims.

How is it you lecture Israel on having to be non Jewish but do not argue the same for Muslim states not being Muslim states either?

How its it you make the sweeping statement Israel is an apartheid state when you are well aware its non Jewish citizens have equal access to its hospitals, schools, government services, unlike Jews and non Muslims in the Mulsim states, can and do own land and win legal battles in court over land title, are granted the right to be served by the government in Arabic and official language of the state, vote in non Jewish politicians, and have total autonomy in their religious and family court systems and you call this apartheid when you are fully aware no Jew or non Muslim has any of these rights in a Muslim country and no black person had these same rights in South Africa.

Tell me, do you think your double standard that Jews are the only people in the world who should not be allowed self-determination through a state is anything but your own discrimination or dhimmitude or apartheid against Jews.

You want to throw that word about then look at how you single out Jews as the only people in the world you see fit to lecture as to whether they should have the right to protect their Jewish collective identity in a state organ.

You seem to have no problem with Muslim states doing the same for Muslims, or Ireland doing the same with a law of return for the Irish, Japan offering a law of return for any ethnic Japanese person and the same law of return in Lativia, Lithuania, the Ukraine, Finland, Sweden, both Chinas, Estonia, Belgium, Germany, the Czech republic, the Slovak Republic, etc.

Your bias indicates you do not understand what dhimmitude is and why you engage in this hippocracy which only questions Jews. We don't know our place now do we? Is that it? We should just know our place and not demand we b

be protected from existential extermination?

Right? We just forget dhimmitude and what it has done to us in the Muslim world and we just forget the thousands of years of what Christian dhimmitude did to us-we just shut our uppity mouths and keep ourselves quiet, right?

No.

Never again.

Look in the mirror at your own culture's reflection before you presume you are morally righteous enough to lecture Jews on how they should express their collective identity.

You may find some skeletons in your closet. Sounds like you still can't resist lecturing the Jew on where we belong.

Thanks, I have no interest in playing golf at your club and I find your food bland and too focused on boiling the taste out of everything.

[Bonam]

Good post Rue! And welcome back, haven't seen you posting here for a while.

[M.Dancer]

Even if we imagine for a second that that would be politically possible, the "West Bank" rejoining Jordan would run into all the same problems with contiguity and dimensions that the West Bank turning into its own state would.

With the exception of a stable pro western government and a culture not based on victimhood or death.