Why did PM Martin failed in Washington

[maplesyrup]

Martin Wins Bush Praise But No Trade Concessions

Martin's is another Mulroney and that is the reason why he failed Canada on his trip to Washington this week.

Martin goes to kiss ass so he can get an invitation to Bush's ranch in Texas. Who cares.

At least Chretien had some class.

The reason Martin failed is that Americans only understand "Hardball".

If Martin had threatened to turn off Canada's energy tap to the US, the Softwood Lumber issue would have been resolved before Martin even stepped one foot inside Washington.

And Harper, who would turn Canada into the 51st state the moment he had a chance, would only have made things even worse than Martin, if you can believe that's possible.

What a motley crew!

[August1991]

Martin did something different from the usual Canadian PM approach to US politics. Martin decided to get involved in local politics by meeting Congressmen individually. That's what US Governors do when they show up in Washington to lobby on their State's behalf.

(I doubt Chirac or any French President would ever go to some Senator's office; Trudeau spoke to the joint house.)

Will Martin get anything out of it? Doubt it. He has no coat-tail and no votes to deliver. Can he give a speech in Omaha to support a Democratic candidate? Lower-level people, not our PM, should do this leg work reminding US politicos how their voters depend on Canada.

Was the Bush message to open the border for beef a subtle signal to Albertans? These Bushies are well advised.

Harper chose to present his Quebec candidates at the same time Martin got his Bush photo op. This campaign will be interesting.

[KrustyKidd]

Least they talked. More than the previous guy did. Continue hate and criticism without friendship and they stop listening.

Guess you don't understand how to deal with people.

I'm right leaning and I at least understand how a leftist PM made a blow for Canda and the world this week simply by opening dialogue.

Maybe when they talk from now on Bush will understand why Canada did not join in on Iraq, maybe they will understand why we feel the way we do. Maybe he won't. At least, now, he will listen. If you see nothing postive about that then can't help you.

[August1991]

I'm right leaning and I at least understand how a leftist PM made a blow for Canda and the world this week simply by opening dialogue.

Martin HAD to go to Washington for the photo op. But it was Bush that opened the dialogue by saying:

“Canada is an independent nation,” he said. “Canada makes decisions based upon her own judgment.”

Bush was unprompted. Martin didn't get Bush to say that. It's what Bush thinks.

[Goldie]

Maplesyrup

And Harper, who would turn Canada into the 51st state the moment he had a chance, would only have made things even worse than Martin if you can believe that's possible.

Can you explain how a 51st State Govenor would come about to screwing things up even more and how Harper would achieve what Brian Mulroney failed to do.

[maplesyrup]

Goldie......82% of Canadians do not like the current American administration. What more needs be said.

Most Canadians actually enjoy being Canadian, and have no interest in becoming part of the US. I think the folks that long for the US so much should leave Canada if they feel Canada is so bad. Perhaps we could give them a one-way bus ticket to Seattle if they are in the West, and to New York if they are in the East. Similiar to Ralph Klein's one-way ticket to Vancouver for people that were on welfare in Alberta.

The way I see it we are way too heavily influenced by the US. Of course, like anything in life, there are pros and cons living next door to the only earth's superpower at the moment, but Canada needs to keep its distance from the US and chart its own independent couse. We need to reduce our trade with the US, and expand it with other countries, so we don't have all our eggs in one basket, so to speak.

[playfullfellow]

The way I see it we are way too heavily influenced by the US. Of course, like anything in life, there are pros and cons living next door to the only earth's superpower at the moment, but Canada needs to keep its distance from the US and chart its own independent couse. We need to reduce our trade with the US, and expand it with other countries, so we don't have all our eggs in one basket, so to speak.

Whooooooooooaa horse, damn near fell off my chair. I whole heartedly agree with what MS has to say about expanding our trade with other countries so we are not so dependant on every whim of the US. Canada has access to a vast amount of resources and products that are sought after world wide. Even with the the BSE and avian flu problem, our agricultural products are still deemed some of the best in the world. Canada's reputation for new and innovative products is also well known. Canada has probably one of the best reputations world wide when it comes down to respect. The US still looks at us as a bunch of redneck, dog sledding, igloo living simpletons. The US believes we are their uneducated little cousin who should do whatever their whim seems to deem. If Canada as a whole was more agressive landing other foreign contracts and started shipping our natural resources elsewhere, eventually the US would back off on some of the trade issues we are dealing with now. Unfortunately, in the mean time, Canada will have to be a little more assertive with the US to deal with our current problems as Canada is losing millions everyday and many more people stand to lose their livelyhoods.

I for one do not wish to become apart of the US as I feel our beautiful country would just get raped. The US is an awesome place to visit but it sure feels nice to come home again, even if we only have 2 seasons, coming into winter and coming out of winter.

[August1991]

The US believes we are their uneducated little cousin who should do whatever their whim seems to deem.

Playful, many Quebec separatists believe that English Canada treats Quebec the same way you believe the US treats Canada.

Maybe the treatment is solely in the mind of the so-called "victim".

[maplesyrup]

Try telling that to the people who work in Canada's softwood lumber industry. Or the cattle ranchers affected by the BSE crisis.

Although there is something to be said, or maybe not said, for the way central Canada (Quebec & Ontario) treats the colonies i.e the West and the Atlantic region.

I grew up in Quebec but having lived in BC for over 20 years now, I will never ever deal with a chartered bank again if I can help it. Thank goodness for credit unions, who keep the local money local, and the decisions are made locally instead of in Montreal or Toronto.

[August1991]

Since you're here, MapleSyrup, that 82% stat is very misleading. Here was the question:

"Now please tell me, do you believe that US President George Bush is a friend of Canada and really knows and understands Canadian issues or do you believe that US President George Bush is not necessarily a friend of Canada and doesn't really know anything when it comes to Canadian issues?"

Heck, I might have answered that convoluted question the same way and I'm rather pro-American.

[willy]

The US is the largest and richest market in the world. This is a major reason why 80% of our trade is with them. It is also the cheapest place to send our products for obvious reasons.

As China and India grow there economies, we may have a chance to diversify ours by trading more with them. Our economy will only grow where people buy our products.

We do market products around the world now but we are not very competitive in a number of markets (labour costs and shipping). Eastern Europe and Russia have large lumber industries just like us for example and they are selling to China and Western Europe cheaper than we can.

We should be thankful to have such a large, stable economic engine next door. This has given us the ability to have a very good standard of living and supports our social programs.

MS you are a proud Canadian? I think you mistake globalization as Americanization. Americans have the largest economy in the world so it is easy to do. Multi National companies share with the world a pop culture. This has an influence but it is not the only influence on national identity.

Canada’s challenge is to be clear on what makes us united and Canadian. With lack of clarity we use things like universal healthcare to define us, even when we have to wait a year to see a doctor. We don’t go to war and that defines us. We are not American and that defines us. Our national beer has probably defined us better than the CBC can.

I love living in this country, and we are distinct but the beer and healthcare aren’t my defining factors.

It all comes down to hockey. MS if you are not a hockey fan you are not a Canadian. The only thing that should really matter in Canada/US relations is that when our male or female hockey teams meet we need to win. When we win at hockey our national identity is unified and our esteem is high. It may be sad but I am Canadian.

Seriously, what makes Canada great to me is the ability to live in my faith, support my family and build a community that cares for each other.

[falling leaf]

Maplesyrup

Martin's is another Mulroney and that is the reason why he failed Canada on his trip to Washington this week.

You are not up to speed Maplesyrup .Martin and Mulroney were not even in the same party.

How do you know he failed ? Do you know things that CSIS doesnt .

By the way no country tells all details about what they do .

It only becomes public Knowledge after it is read in the House of Commoms.

[playfullfellow]

Playful, many Quebec separatists believe that English Canada treats Quebec the same way you believe the US treats Canada.

Very true August, I live out West and I hear all the "we are getting raped by the East" rhetoric all the time. Some of the arguments I agree with and some I don't. What I do see is that Premier Klein went to bat for the farmers of Canada long before Mr. Martin even thought to go to the US and swing a deal. I personally have no hard feelings towards the US in general, I just dont agree with their attitudes a lot of times. I am extremely proud to be a Canadian and one of the best days of my life was when I got my citizenship along with my family.

As to how I view the US is treating Canada is like this. At the moment, there is no scientific reason why the border is still closed to a majority of our beef. The main reason the border is still closed is because the US farmers enjoying record prices and record profits because of the border closures.

The grain tariffs the US has imposed on Canadian wheat has been deemed unfair by the WTO. The amount of wheat that Canada sends to the US is marginal in the way it may affect their prices.

The US has deemed all subsidies around the world as unfair trade practices but yet US farmers enjoy record amount of government subsidies.

My problem with the US government is that they dont practice what they preach. Martin is way out of his league when dealing with the US. The US is still pissed that we didn't back them in Iraq and that we as a nation do not bow to their whim. I still feel that Canada should try to diversify to trading with other countries and ease some of the dependancy on the US.

[KrustyKidd]

I still feel that Canada should try to diversify to trading with other countries and ease some of the dependancy on the US.

Pretend for a moment that I make a widget and sell it to whomever buys it. Taxed at a rate of 5% by the US in return for a low tax rate on the 'Snibs' they sell us, it makes for a half decent deal. Suddenly, I find that they are taxed at a rate of 10% and my orders stop comming from the US. I look to Europe and find that there are mega Widget manufacturers there that don't have a hefty transport cost attactched to their product and cannot compete. I go out of business here and move my company to the US.

On the other hand, what if I look to Europe and find that I can make money trading with them? I, as a business owner would have done it long ago. Or at least, asked the Government to work on making some sort of agreement whereby I could make money there.

[Fortunata]

Martin did not fail in the US. He went there to talk not to broker deals. A relationship must come first before any understanding (or even wanting some understanding) can take place. My hat is off to Martin who straddles a sharp fence. If he doesn't build good will with the US he will have failed; if he builds too good of relationship with the US he will fail because we will boot him next election.

That's where Harper is in danger, IMO. Harper wants to emulate the US in too many ways. He has made and will continue to make the new CPC party into what comes down to the Republican Party of Canada. He doesn't seem to get that Canadians like being Canadians, and being a Canadian is such a myriad of things, only one of which is not being American. We have our ways, which may not be significantly different than Americans', but enough different that it feels Canadian to us.

Chrétien knew this. It was not just his fault or the fault of the PMO and Cabinet there was a rift between Washington and Ottawa. There is a history with Chrétien, Clinton and Bush (when he was governor of Texas) with a Canadian being executed with improprieties in the investigation and subsequent trial which led to a guilty verdict and finally, death. I don't think there is too much Martin can do with Bush (or any Canadian PM) unless one bows down and kisses butt, which none of us want to see.

Regardless of what the relationship is there has always been trade disputes and will always be. The poster that said US doesn't practise what they preach has hit the nail on the head. They don't in trade or in foreign policies or even their domestic policies (Patriot Act). You cannot know what to expect with their inconsistencies.

[playfullfellow]

On the other hand, what if I look to Europe and find that I can make money trading with them? I, as a business owner would have done it long ago. Or at least, asked the Government to work on making some sort of agreement whereby I could make money there.

So far to date, doing business with the US has been done because it has been easier to ship products down there. In the past there has not been much pushing by the US government for Canada to change their ways. Since 9-11, the US has had continuous pressure on Canada to change various parts of our immigration and security policies. These protectionist activities has allowed certain lobby groups in the US to get the US government to apply protectionist tariffs and closures on Canadian products. Canada has been caught with their pants down and are scrambling to protect our industries. All of a sudden our neighbour to the south is not such a kindly neighbour and we are in shock. The US will be our friend as long as we say "yes sir" every time they bark an order. Mr. Martin will always be the under dog in any negotiations with the US because the US will always view us as the poor country cousin. The US has ensured that Canada as a whole can not hold back our resources from them through NAFTA so what do they care, they don't have to suck hole to us.

[KrustyKidd]

PF, your words are true but it is not the Government making the parts and brokering the deals but the private sector. the ones who are looking to make a buck and satisfy the shareholders (us). When you say it is easier to ship to theree, remember, easier is cheaper. Cheaper means cost savings, which in turn means more bought, which means more made, which means more jobs, which means better economy.

I acknowlege that the Government has the ability to influence and has a large stake in setting out tariffs and such but that only works so far, they cannot artificially create a market where there was none before simply because it wants to.

The US will be our friend as long as we say "yes sir" every time they bark an order.

You are falling into the simple form of thinking that so many do to envision world affairs. Countries are never friends, they, at best form alliances that change over time to best suit each other. That is why they get Lawyers to work out details instead of big purple dinosaurs named Barney. They don't act out of spite or to try and take the other one over but rather to each's mutual benifit. They might try and influence one area by giving concessions in another for sure, but if you feel that our guys have worked out a bad deal, it is our fault, not the US's.

On the other hand, the people of each country, PM and President included can feel a kinship to the other given our similar ethics and culture, this can be construed as 'friendship.'. This is why we and they should both stive to do things for each other as no other two countries on this planet are as similar to us and them as us and them are.

[playfullfellow]

KK, I do agree and do know that overseas trade has more to do with individual companies and not just the Canadian Government. I t does help a lot if the Canadian Governement is on side with such individual companies. Trading with other countries is also a give and take where we generally have to take their products in return for them taking ours. The government has to be also willing to allow these products in with no extra duties or tafiffs. No point in making big deals overseas if the government has no intention of backing that company.