Bonam Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Bonam, that is not the question and you know it. How long does Israel's land claim last?How much time Bonam? Umm as long as Israel keeps existing its claim will continue to last? The Palestinians land claim, should last as long as Israel's right? Sure. Their claim on that part of the world where they presently live can last as long as they keep living there, too. You know, Gaza, and most of the West Bank. Soon as they smarten up and decide to make peace and accept a reasonable deal, they can have it. It's been offered to them before, but their leaders preferred to condemn their people to terrorism instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 their leaders preferred to condemn their people to terrorism instead. example of defamation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuzadd Posted July 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Breaking the illusion that Jews are colonizers (with a strong sense of entitlement) is precisely what (Canadian) politicians have to do to win elections and solve Middle East problems. It is not an illusion that Israel is a colonialist nation, with a strong sense of entitlement, (brought on by God and alot of overblown self-righteousness) the facts and the map shows it quite clearly, so I am unsure what you are saying Mapping the occupation-fully interactive And for anyone that may be interested here is a good little documentary Jan 2003- Imperial Geography-palestine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 It is not an illusion that Israel is a colonialist nation, with a strong sense of entitlement, (brought on by God and alot of overblown self-righteousness) the facts and the map shows it quite clearly, so I am unsure what you are saying Jews feel an urgency to be at a save distance from one another, it's this gap that appears as self-righteous colonization to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuzadd Posted July 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Jews feel an urgency to be at a save distance from one another, it's this gap that appears as self-righteous colonization to others. UH, no it is the fact that they are outside of their borders and occupying another group of people and their land that makes them be self-righteous colonisers. see map of an occupation above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Jews feel an urgency to be at a save distance from one another, it's this gap that appears as self-righteous colonization to others. UH, no it is the fact that they are outside of their borders and occupying another group of people and their land that makes them be self-righteous colonisers. See this is where you go from criticism to defamation. Your response to benny's statement clearly labels Jews, that is all Jews, as "self-righteous colonizers" despite the fact that only a tiny minority are settling outside of what you consider to be "Israel's borders". And that brings up another point, what borders of Israel do you accept? Do you accept the existence of Israel at all, or do you like Hamas believe that the "self-righteous colonizers" should be "driven into the sea"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuzadd Posted July 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Umm as long as Israel keeps existing its claim will continue to last?Sure. Their claim on that part of the world where they presently live can last as long as they keep living there, too. You know, Gaza, and most of the West Bank. Soon as they smarten up and decide to make peace and accept a reasonable deal, they can have it. It's been offered to them before, but their leaders preferred to condemn their people to terrorism instead. "most of the west bank", you mean what is not being stolen by Israel, my how gracious of you, again with the entitlement Bonam, that is not the way it works for Israel, their 'claim' on the land was extended to persons who never ever set foot on it, lots of Europeans, where as the Palestinians were displaced by the colonisers. As in they actually lived on the land. Therefore as long as Israel's claim to the land extends multi-generations to people who never set foot on the land, it should be the palestinians equal right to extend land claims generations also, since all of them were from that land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuzadd Posted July 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 UH, no it is the fact that they are outside of their borders and occupying another group of people and their land that makes them be self-righteous colonisers.See this is where you go from criticism to defamation. Your response to benny's statement clearly labels Jews, that is all Jews, as "self-righteous colonizers" despite the fact that only a tiny minority are settling outside of what you consider to be "Israel's borders". And that brings up another point, what borders of Israel do you accept? Do you accept the existence of Israel at all, or do you like Hamas believe that the "self-righteous colonizers" should be "driven into the sea"? I see where you may possibly be confused, but your question on what I consider Israel's borders leads me to believe you understand perfectly well what it is I am saying. However, since I don't dig the defamation, I will clarify, I am speaking of settlers and the Israeli governments policy. Hope that clears things up? I am saying the country of Israel has moved beyond their lawful borders The settlers who are Israelis are outside of their borders. And they are Israeli aren't they? Being outside of the borders is government policy, see the apartheid wall, and funding for the settlers in the occupied territories. Expansionism is part and parcel of Israels agenda and though not entirely supported by all Israelis, the dream of a greater Israel is one that far too many decent people have been indoctrinated with. Do I accept the existence of Israel? Yup! What borders do I consider Israel's? check the map.See the borders that were given in the Partition, those are the lawful borders. Those are the internationally recognized borders of Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) I see where you may possibly be confused, but your question on what I consider Israel's borders leads me to believe you understand perfectly well what it is I am saying.However, since I don't dig the defamation, I will clarify, I am speaking of settlers and the Israeli governments policy. Hope that clears things up? In other words, that's what you hide behind when someone calls you on your defamatory statements. Got it. I am saying the country of Israel has moved beyond their lawful borders The settlers who are Israelis are outside of their borders. And they are Israeli aren't they? Perhaps when the state of Palestine is created they can become Palestinians and be granted full citizenship and equality. I'm certain the peace-loving people of Palestine would be only too overjoyed to have a more culturally diverse state. Being outside of the borders is government policy, see the apartheid wall You claim to denounce propaganda in other threads, and here you are using terms like "apartheid wall" to once again try to defame a certain people and their nation. Expansionism is part and parcel of Israels agenda and though not entirely supported by all Israelis If expansionism is part of their agenda, why have they relinquished so much territory they formally controlled? Gaza? Southern Lebanon? The Sinai? Israel's agenda is security, not expansionism. What borders do I consider Israel's?check the map.See the borders that were given in the Partition, those are the lawful borders. Those are the internationally recognized borders of Israel. The borders proposed in the UN partition plan in 1948? Do you know how many people would become displaced if Israel reverted to those borders? You seem to have no hesitation proposing policies that would involve the displacement and disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands or even millions of Jews. And yet you claim to stand up for people that lost their homes and their land. Your utter one-sidedness is plainly obvious in this statement. Statements like this are where your hatred is most evident. Even the slightest offense of Israel against the Palestinians seems worthy of starting a new thread to you, meanwhile the displacement of vast numbers of Israeli Jews you deem inconsequential, or even just. Edited July 18, 2009 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 UH, no it is the fact that they are outside of their borders and occupying another group of people and their land that makes them be self-righteous colonisers.see map of an occupation above. squatting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 (edited) In other words, that's what you hide behind when someone calls you on your defamatory statements. Got it.Perhaps when the state of Palestine is created they can become Palestinians and be granted full citizenship and equality. I'm certain the peace-loving people of Palestine would be only too overjoyed to have a more culturally diverse state. defamatory slam You claim to denounce propaganda in other threads, and here you are using terms like "apartheid wall" to once again try to defame a certain people and their nation. What do you call it? If expansionism is part of their agenda, why have they relinquished so much territory they formally controlled? Gaza? Southern Lebanon? The Sinai? Israel's agenda is security, not expansionism. How did they get those territories? The borders proposed in the UN partition plan in 1948? Do you know how many people would become displaced if Israel reverted to those borders? You seem to have no hesitation proposing policies that would involve the displacement and disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands or even millions of Jews. They don't have to move do they? Disenfranchised? How? And millions of others who have been displaced could go home. Are you acknowledging that those are the legal borders? And yet you claim to stand up for people that lost their homes and their land. Your utter one-sidedness is plainly obvious in this statement. Statements like this are where your hatred is most evident. defamatory slam Even the slightest offense of Israel against the Palestinians seems worthy of starting a new thread to you, meanwhile the displacement of vast numbers of Israeli Jews you deem inconsequential, or even just. Everybody deserves justice. Edited July 19, 2009 by tango Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 (edited) Everybody deserves justice. The problem is that Jews and Muslims share the same conception of justice: the infamous lex taliionis. Edited July 19, 2009 by benny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 defamatory slamWhat do you call it? How did they get those territories? They don't have to move do they? Disenfranchised? How? And millions of others who have been displaced could go home. Are you acknowledging that those are the legal borders? defamatory slam Everybody deserves justice. Wow I don't even know what to say. This is worse than debating with dub. At least he tries to bring some "facts" and arguments to the table, however skewed they might be. You just respond with one-liners like benny, except without the humour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 You just respond with one-liners like benny, except without the humour. I never respond with questions though because I expect no answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 It is not an illusion that Israel is a colonialist nation, with a strong sense of entitlement, (brought on by God and alot of overblown self-righteousness) the facts and the map shows it quite clearly, so I am unsure what you are sayingMapping the occupation-fully interactive And for anyone that may be interested here is a good little documentary Jan 2003- Imperial Geography-palestine If you believe Israel is not interested in peace whatsoever then why do even bother to discuss this? I mean, if that is your belief then you are simply ranting in every post rather than working towards a possible solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Wow I don't even know what to say. This is worse than debating with dub. At least he tries to bring some "facts" and arguments to the table, however skewed they might be. You just respond with one-liners like benny, except without the humour. You could try answering the questions without defamatory comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 You could try answering the questions without defamatory comments. I will. I'm sure Bonom will agree with me. Tango What do you call it? A security wall. Israelis on one side and those who wish to, and do, attack it on the other. Tango How did they get those territories? In defensive wars where they were attacked and beat back those who wished to destroy them. Tango They don't have to move do they? Yes. There have been peace initiatives where settlers have been evicted by the army. Quite emotional but, proves that Israel will move if there is reason. for a total return, Palestinians have to prove that they have stopped being a threat. Tango Disenfranchised? How? They've built lives, invested money and blood on that land that the Palestinians refused to accept sixty years ago. Tango Are you acknowledging that those are the legal borders? Legal borders? If it means total peace then I would say yes. If not then just do what Kuzadd figures and accept that Israel only wants land, not peace and screw the Palestinians forever. I think your problem is not understanding what happened Tango. Israel accepted partition, the Palestinians did not and immediately went to war against Israel with the rest of the Arabs and, to this day, have still not been able to come to grips with the idea of having an peaceful coexistence with Israel. You side with Palestinians which is fine however, until there is a peaceful relationship, they will get nothing. They've done nothing peaceful as an entire people except make token gestures and then, another faction breaks those treaties. From Israel's standpoint, sixty years and these people still can't get it together to actually want peace enough to be at peace so screw them, somebody may as well make use of the land. Of course, you figure that killing people is a viable solution instead of making peace and any action to stop that killing is wrong so, I guess we are at odds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 (edited) A security wall. Israelis on one side and those who wish to, and do, attack it on the other. Sounds like a jail to me. Legal borders? If it means total peace then I would say yes. If not then just do what Kuzadd figures and accept that Israel only wants land, not peace and screw the Palestinians forever.I think your problem is not understanding what happened Tango. Israel accepted partition, the Palestinians did not and immediately went to war against Israel with the rest of the Arabs and, to this day, have still not been able to come to grips with the idea of having an peaceful coexistence with Israel. You side with Palestinians which is fine however, until there is a peaceful relationship, they will get nothing. They've done nothing peaceful as an entire people except make token gestures and then, another faction breaks those treaties. From Israel's standpoint, sixty years and these people still can't get it together to actually want peace enough to be at peace so screw them, somebody may as well make use of the land. Of course, you figure that killing people is a viable solution instead of making peace and any action to stop that killing is wrong so, I guess we are at odds. Until the maximum security 'wall' is opened, they can't be peaceful: Their children are starving and dying from lack of supplies due to the siege. How far back do we go with the historical tit-for-tat? I've seen posts about several thousand years BC! Do you really think the solutions lie in the past? I don't. I'm more interested in what the immediate solutions are, and I think it's pretty clear that if Israel wants peace, it has to withdraw to allow an international zone of safety. The living situation of the people is untenable, and will continue to give rise to opposition. Who would do any different in their place? Edited July 19, 2009 by tango Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Sounds like a jail to me.Until the maximum security 'wall' is opened, they can't be peaceful: Their children are starving and dying from lack of supplies due to the siege. How far back do we go with the historical tit-for-tat? I've seen posts about several thousand years BC! Do you really think the solutions lie in the past? I don't. I'm more interested in what the immediate solutions are, and I think it's pretty clear that if Israel wants peace, it has to withdraw to allow an international zone of safety. The living situation of the people is untenable, and will continue to give rise to opposition. Who would do any different in their place? There was no peace before the wall. Suicide bombers were the tool rather than rockets. As for your International Zone idea. Been done before. The UN was put in place after the Suez crisis only to be unilaterally removed by the Arabs when they felt they were strong enough to attack Israel (see the Six Day War). You should make an attempt at understanding the Arab-Israeli conflict, as mentioned. Arab-Israeli Conflict As for your 'who would do different?' comment: I would. I'm a Canadian and I do things differently rather than resorting to pointless violence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Sounds like a jail to me.Until the maximum security 'wall' is opened, they can't be peaceful: Their children are starving and dying from lack of supplies due to the siege. How far back do we go with the historical tit-for-tat? I've seen posts about several thousand years BC! Do you really think the solutions lie in the past? I don't. I'm more interested in what the immediate solutions are, and I think it's pretty clear that if Israel wants peace, it has to withdraw to allow an international zone of safety. The living situation of the people is untenable, and will continue to give rise to opposition. Who would do any different in their place? Israel erected this wall in order to enhance their security which it did. They have the power to raise it, lower it, build it bigger or take it down completely. Don't you think that just possibly you might consider their point of view in this issue? Just a little maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Israel erected this wall in order to enhance their security which it did. They have the power to raise it, lower it, build it bigger or take it down completely. Don't you think that just possibly you might consider their point of view in this issue? Just a little maybe? For all that concerns Israel's security, Iran's point of view on Israel is what matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 For all that concerns Israel's security, Iran's point of view on Israel is what matters. Israel has yet to start a war (even the 67 war was started by Arabs violating the armistice and placing armies in an attack position on Israel's borders) so I take that to mean Iran is concerned about Israel defending themselves if and when Iran attacks. Pretty silly Benny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 (edited) Israel's army is VERY defensive. The Merkava is not air-deployable. Too heavy. Nor could it 'drive' all the way to Iran. Edited July 19, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Israel has yet to start a war (even the 67 war was started by Arabs violating the armistice and placing armies in an attack position on Israel's borders) so I take that to mean Iran is concerned about Israel defending themselves if and when Iran attacks.Pretty silly Benny. When Iran looks at Israel, it rightly looks at the whole western world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 There was no peace before the wall. Suicide bombers were the tool rather than rockets.As for your International Zone idea. Been done before. The UN was put in place after the Suez crisis only to be unilaterally removed by the Arabs when they felt they were strong enough to attack Israel (see the Six Day War). You should make an attempt at understanding the Arab-Israeli conflict, as mentioned. Arab-Israeli Conflict As for your 'who would do different?' comment: I would. I'm a Canadian and I do things differently rather than resorting to pointless violence. In the exact situation of Gaza, blockaded, what would/could you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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