Has Canada become an 'Underachiever' Nation?

[Wild Bill]

I thought I'd start this thread after all the posting about Canada's military, or lack of it, in the "10B dollar" thread.

It's easy to list our accomplishments from decades ago. What are we doing today? We have brave soldiers. Both of them. We send them out with bows and arrows against the lightning. Our navy has a few modern frigates but we can only afford to fuel a few at a time for active sea duty. When the balloon goes up like in Kosovo we send our canteen ship to supply coffee and sandwiches.

We built the CanadArm for the space shuttles and the space station. Where's the other arm and the legs?

I'm not suggesting we've done NOTHING since the mid 70's! Just that the pace seems to have dramatically tapered off.

Please, let's not have someone drag out that hoary old saw that we are a nation of only a small population. We've ALWAYS had a small population! Yet there is a LONG list of what Canada invented and produced, from baseball to walkie-talkies that seems to peter out about 30 years ago.

What happened? When did we decide to become a nation of only resources, like any country in the third world? What happened to all our Alexander Graham Bells or Reginald Fessendens?

We still produce world class artists and writers but a country can't survive with ONLY Margaret Atwoods!

Premier McGuinty talks about how Canada will develop 50,000 'green jobs' that will pay as well as the auto manufacturing industry, yet Ontario bans the ZEN electric car!

Was it losing the Arrow? The Studebaker? When did we abandon having the resources to be serious PeaceMAKERS in favour of basically a heavier armed police force, that has to hitch a ride from some OTHER country in order to get where it needs to be?

How many satellites have we built and launched in the past 30 years? Even with having to have some other country put them into orbit for us?

Have we become just a nation of tired old men and women, dreaming about past glories?

Anyone care to venture an opinion?

[M.Dancer]

Anyone care to venture an opinion?

RIM

[Wild Bill]

RIM

I was waiting for that one! I was selling parts to them when they were still just a small engineering outfit at the local university.

OK, we have ten fingers to count on. You've just used one.

Will we need all our fingers? Will we actually have to take our shoes off?

THAT's my point, after all!

[M.Dancer]

MARs

[M.Dancer]

How many satellites have we built and launched in the past 30 years? Even with having to have some other country put them into orbit for us?

5

[AngusThermopyle]

Actually I agree Bill, we just don't seem to be doing much of anything noteworthy anymore. Anything we do engage in is actually pretty small potatoes compared to other nations. Sure we have a few research projects on the go at some of our universities, but once again, pretty small potatoes compared to others out there.

We did have some people who developed Bio Steel, sometimes known as Spider Steel, but they couldn't get any funding from our government so they took it to the States. The US of course was more than happy to fund these guys as this new form of steel is expected to revolutionize just about everything that utilizes steel. Actually quite a number of things that currently don't use steel are also expected to utilize this product.

So we had another chance to become world leaders in an important area and as usual we just blew it away. It looks as though the problem is actually short sighted brain dead politicians, not a lack of talent or will.

[Wild Bill]

5

5?

That's IT???!!!

5???!!!

[stranger little]

CANDU? well maybe if our government would support our institutions and achievements we would be a little better off!!!!

[Wild Bill]

So we had another chance to become world leaders in an important area and as usual we just blew it away. It looks as though the problem is actually short sighted brain dead politicians, not a lack of talent or will.

Yeah, seems so. We have the talent. We just discourage it.

We've become the farm team for other nations. We send them our most capable and in return we accept as immigrants everybody's grandparents.

I'm still wigged out about Dancer's post. 5 satellites!

He seemed almost proud!

We really had better break this penny ante mentality soon or this country might as well petition to become part of the USA.

[Wild Bill]

Here's a list:

http://careerchem.com/NAMED/Canadian-Inventions.html

As I had said, if you look at the dates it gets kind of thin for the last 30 years. Foxcroft invented a whistle. Gosling invented the Java programming language.

A few others.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The talent gravitates toward the dollars. Since we are not a research intensive nation that means our young folks in the field are going where the research dollars are.

[Smallc]

Yes, obviously we have nothing to be proud of in this country. It seems there are those that would nitpick this country to death. Thankfully, they now appear to be firmly in the minority.

[CAMP]

I was waiting for that one! I was selling parts to them when they were still just a small engineering outfit at the local university.

OK, we have ten fingers to count on. You've just used one.

Will we need all our fingers? Will we actually have to take our shoes off?

THAT's my point, after all!

Sadly the manufacturing of most of those blackberries are done overseas Asian rim. And the factory here pays only a bare wage of survival at approx 15$ hr. I know because I have a son working there.

Yes there are some upper end jobs but not that many.

The real problem here in Canada and the US has been that our manufacturing sector has not been at least protected from 3rd world country poverty wages that large corporations take advantage of. Our government doesn't seem to care. Now it has finally hit the biggest manufacturing sector right in the heart.... the auto industry.

We will continue to bleed our manufacturing off to other places because our government is in the back pocket of the big big multinational manufacturers.

We can invent all the stuff you want. It's all going overseas as soon as the quantity rises.

Seen it many times in my business.

[madmax]

What happened? When did we decide to become a nation of only resources, like any country in the third world? What happened to all our Alexander Graham Bells or Reginald Fessendens?

Anyone care to venture an opinion?

We decided to become a resource nation when we abandon the policies of Sir John A MacDonald, and energy polices of Adam Beck. Where have you been the last 15 to 20 years?

This was a choice. That choice was completed following with the elections of Mulroney and then Chretian for Biased Trade Agreements that put Canada back into the colonial mode of the 16 to 18 hundreds. Just like in the time before Sir John A for hundreds of years, we were a resource exporting nation to Europe. Sir John a Changed that and fought against Liberal Trade policies as did successive Conservative Leaders and Prime Ministers up to Brian Mulroney when he reversed over 100 years of Conservative policy and adopted the Liberal mantra for Open Trade.

Not certain what else you expect to happen, but one of the benefits of technology and trade is that human resources can be outsourced to Honduras, or India as can all Engineering and other technological aspects. THere is no reason to do it in Canada when it can be done outside of Canada for a very very small fraction of the price.

There is little need for Manufacturing or Technology to be done in Canada when it can be done elsewhere for less money.

People support this policy today and certainly on MLW from the postings that I have read over the past 3 years.

Most people don't support it when their R&D centre is shut down, and they realize that they are easily replaced and outsourced.

Some call it the Global economy, to compete in the Global Economy, you compete with the 3rd world which can punch out Engineers and Computer Specialists dirt cheap and in mass quantities at 3rd world wages.

You wonder why we are degenerating into a 3rd world status? Hey, the 3rd world technology and value added sectors are growing.

Enjoy.

[bush_cheney2004]

....The real problem here in Canada and the US has been that our manufacturing sector has not been at least protected from 3rd world country poverty wages that large corporations take advantage of....

Does not correlate...the US is "achieving" despite losses in the manufacturing sector.

Seek true love elsewhere.

[stranger little]

Premier McGuinty talks about how Canada will develop 50,000 'green jobs' that will pay as well as the auto manufacturing industry, yet Ontario bans the ZEN electric car!

HA! The wind industry is so far up McGuinty's backside that they could tell him that clouds are made from marshmallows and he'd believe them!!!!

[Bonam]

And the factory here pays only a bare wage of survival at approx 15$ hr.

What? People need to learn to manage money if they think $15/hour is a "bare wage of survival". I've lived on $15/hour before, pretty comfortably too, in some of Canada's most expensive cities, and still managed to save about 1/3 of all the money I earned.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Besides that, I totally agree we need to provide more incentives for high tech research and innovation in this country.

[madmax]

What? People need to learn to manage money if they think $15/hour is a "bare wage of survival". I've lived on $15/hour before, pretty comfortably too, in some of Canada's most expensive cities, and still managed to save about 1/3 of all the money I earned.

I'd say that $15 isn't a bare wage survival, but it isn't a significant wage either. Regardless most of the new employment generated by companies like Proctor and Gamble etc pay closer to the minimum wage. The trend in falling wages is quite significant. The fact that you suggest your lived comfortably on $15 before, the question is when? are you talking 10 years ago, 5 years ago or last week?

If you earned $15 and saved $5, you certainly haven't purchased a home, and clearly aren't adding to growth in the economy. Nor did you suggest you invested it, which under the recent circumstances may have been a good thing.

That said, sure, I know alot of people who can make your same statement, and earning $10 and hour in the big cities. However, sooner or later, you must leave your parents home and stop asking for money to go out with your friends.

Obviously people who manage to earn a higher wage, regardless of its amount, forget how to manage when that wage is no longer available. However, it becomes forced upon them, and the answer is quite simple. You no longer can spend the same amount. You can no longer handle the same amount on credit. You no longer can maintain you vehicles or homes in the same fashion, or the docking fees for the boat need to be cut off this year and the boat sold. THeir is always something to give up.

Of course people get by. People survive.

The economy shrinks.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Besides that, I totally agree we need to provide more incentives for high tech research and innovation in this country.

The McGuinty Government handed out billions in "High Tech" research incentives. The Feds, not so much.

However, As was pointed out in an earlier post, I suggest you reread CAMP.

R&D is a facade to hide behind. I have watched many an R&D Building created with the aid of public funds. They are very pretty buildings. For some companies they are a testement to their wealth.

Most of the high tech industries left Canada 15 years ago. R&D follows the manufacturing base, and Canada choose not to support manufacturing.

It is slightly different with Pharma... but certainly on proportion to the advanced state of this country and the people with the talent here, it is still far behind other G7 countries.

[Wild Bill]

R&D is a facade to hide behind. I have watched many an R&D Building created with the aid of public funds. They are very pretty buildings. For some companies they are a testement to their wealth.

Most of the high tech industries left Canada 15 years ago. R&D follows the manufacturing base, and Canada choose not to support manufacturing.

Quite right, MM! In the early 90's I returned to my initial career selling IC's, capacitors and stuff to industry, after a few years on the other side of the fence as a purchasing agent.

Right away I had dusted through all my old files and started making introductory visits to all the accounts that used to be the most attractive. The usual entry path is through engineering. You support engineers with data sheets and samples and in return the company will allow you to bid on the production volumes.

The engineers were so eager to see me that I became suspicious! Salespeople are used to meeting a bit of resistance but these guys just seemed so lonely!

I showed up at the appointed time and they gave me the red carpet tour! After it was over we returned to their department and they treated me to a coffee. They were all enthusiastic about me providing them with engineering support.

Then I asked the usual question. When the time came, who was my contact in purchasing?

They all got very quiet and started rubbing their shoes on the floor. Finally they admitted that there was no purchasing contact! All production had been moved to the far East!

The penny dropped! When their company had taken away the production opportunities all the parts suppliers had stopped giving any engineering support. Why? There was no money to be made!

What's more, it was obvious that the higher ups, after they realized the consequence of their decision, would fix it by using Far East engineering too!

And that's exactly what happened within a few years. We ended up with engineers being a dime a dozen.

[Dave_ON]

While I agree that Canada could certainly work toward becoming a more innovative country there are several factors we need to address before this can happen. Firstly we do not have sufficient facilities and infrastructure currently in place to support many R&D projects. The much vaunted Arrow is a prime example of this; while it was a great achievement certainly it was arrived at with a lot of assistance from the Americans and at a very high cost to the public. One lesson we have never really learned from our American neighbors is how to do things cheaply without sacrificing quality. Canadians are great at coming up with new ideas, the Americans are great at improving on those designs and doing so cheaply and efficiently. This is not to detract from such achievements like the CANDU reactor but in all honesty it is a very expensive piece of technology, not that nuclear reactors are cheap by any stretch but the CANDU took it to a new level.

The other issue we need to address is time, new technology doesn’t happen over night or even in a few years. One of the major drawbacks to our political system is, often times ambitious projects are begun by one government and quickly undone by the following one. The Maple reactors are a prime example of how this happens. We would essentially need the support of all parties in the house to ensure any level of success in government R&D endeavors.

Lastly we need to live within our means as it were, new technology is rarely cheap. As a country we have access to a vast amount of resources but due to our limited population we have a significantly smaller public fund to draw from. This is made even smaller by competing government programs. We have social essentials, healthcare, education, defense, roads etc. These all require money as well and proportionally shrink the pot. The other issue that is related is we need focus. We need to choose an area and focus on that preferably one we’re already fairly adept at like nuclear tech or some other form of power generating technology. Oil prices have nowhere to go but up as it is a finite resource, now is the time to invest in and develop alternative energy solutions. If we invest now before we are in dire need of it, we’ll be able to be a world leader in the industry when the time comes that oil is no longer the cheapest source of energy.

[Bonam]

I'd say that $15 isn't a bare wage survival, but it isn't a significant wage either. Regardless most of the new employment generated by companies like Proctor and Gamble etc pay closer to the minimum wage. The trend in falling wages is quite significant. The fact that you suggest your lived comfortably on $15 before, the question is when? are you talking 10 years ago, 5 years ago or last week?

3 years ago. Also... what trend in falling wages? Perhaps they retreated some during the current recession, but before that they were only rising, and will be rising again once the economy recovers.

If you earned $15 and saved $5, you certainly haven't purchased a home, and clearly aren't adding to growth in the economy. Nor did you suggest you invested it, which under the recent circumstances may have been a good thing.

That said, sure, I know alot of people who can make your same statement, and earning $10 and hour in the big cities. However, sooner or later, you must leave your parents home and stop asking for money to go out with your friends.

Was renting an apartment actually. Funny assumption though ;p

Anyway this is kind of tangent to the thread, totally off topic.

[Craig1]

your a idiot if you work for anything less than $25 + $5 to a pension + benefits. Mind as well grab a trade.

[CAMP]

Does not correlate...the US is "achieving" despite losses in the manufacturing sector.

Seek true love elsewhere.

Achieving what? The loss of their auto sector. Their government now owns it as a majority owner...lol!

Basically in debt so far they can't see a way out. They have very few natural resources and now their manufacturing base is bleeding bad too. Yes one can argue they are in outer space, and have invented a fair bit of technology. But anything that they've achieved has been based on use for military. The real thing they have definitely achieved is to be disliked by most of the world.

The Russians in the cold war had a saying... The US will sell you the gun to shoot them with.

The US has sold their manufacturing base out also and now it's showing just how bad off they are.

Give it more time. The wounds will fester more. Unemployment will rise and you will not likely see an economic recovery of any real sustainability. And ditto for Canada.

Change in our democracies is necessary to fix it.

[Craig1]

Achieving what? The loss of their auto sector. Their government now owns it as a majority owner...lol!

Basically in debt so far they can't see a way out. They have very few natural resources and now their manufacturing base is bleeding bad too. Yes one can argue they are in outer space, and have invented a fair bit of technology. But anything that they've achieved has been based on use for military. The real thing they have definitely achieved is to be disliked by most of the world.

The Russians in the cold war had a saying... The US will sell you the gun to shoot them with.

The US has sold their manufacturing base out also and now it's showing just how bad off they are.

Give it more time. The wounds will fester more. Unemployment will rise and you will not likely see an economic recovery of any real sustainability. And ditto for Canada.

Change in our democracies is necessary to fix it.

I think you may be suprised at how much influence comunists will have in the west. what with a 5 trillion dollar debt.