Czech ambassador to Canada recalled

[Jerry J. Fortin]

That may well be but, as I said, there is no movement in the House now to stop the process of hiring more people in the department to process the work quickly.

Even with visas, as some people have noted, it won't stop some from overstaying their visas or claiming refugee status. The problem remains one that has to be fixed in the department itself.

The answer to our problem does not involve hiring even more bureaucrats.

[jdobbin]

The answer to our problem does not involve hiring even more bureaucrats.

We will have to if we are to process so many visas.

[Argus]

Because we are signatories to the United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, and are thus bound by domestic and international law.

Yeah, which is why Japan is overrun by refugees, right. Oh wait, they're not. They accept virtually NO refugees of any kind. Show up in Japan - if you can get there - claiming to be a refugee and they put you in prison until they can hear your case, then quickly deport you.

[Argus]

Refugees are not the same thing as immigrants.

Yes, most immigrants don't wind up on welfare, while almost all refugees do.

[Argus]

What is wrong with the hiring more people to process refugee claims and stopping the flow there?

Dunno. What was wrong that your party didn't do anything about it over 13 years in office?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

We will have to if we are to process so many visas.

Ever here of due process? These things take time, and that is a good thing. Put the refugees in camps like they do everywhere else and I assure you there will be less applicants.

[Argus]

Excellent! Maybe we should put visa requirements for the U.S. as well! Sooo much money to come in!

Fix the system then.

The Liberal Party of Canada will NEVER allow the system to be fixed. Your history is one of exploiting immigranta and ethnic groups and portraying yourself as their great defender against the evil tories. Guaranteed, the moment the Tories come out with something to strongly tighten refugee claims the Libeals and NDP will howl bloody murder, doing their level best to portray it as racist, heartless and anti-immigrant. You've been doing that for the last twenty five years. That leaves the Tories unable to pass the legislation unless they can buy the votes from the BQ, which could be difficult. Quebec's sentiment is generally pro-immigrant/refugee as long as they're not coming to Quebec - which, for the most part, is the case.

5000 refugee claims versus under 300,000 tourists a year.

Which one costs more? I expect the loss of tourism costs are far greater and more immediate.

You're wrong, as usual. The amount we will spend on the refugees, most of whom will be on welfare or social services for much of their lives here, along with their families, is considerably higher, and escalates each year that more of them pour in.

[Argus]

That may well be but, as I said, there is no movement in the House now to stop the process of hiring more people in the department to process the work quickly.

That's because there is no bill in sight. Once one shows up the Liberals and NDP will howl. The need to drastically tighten up the refugee claim system has been clear to everyone for decades. There were even moves in the last Liberal government to do something about it, but every time something came up the immigrant lawyers howled, and the Liberals backed down for fear of losing ethnic votes in Toronto and Montreal. Whenever the Alliance/Reform/PCs/ Tories raised the issue the Liberals took the position that they were just racists, and that the Liberal party would protect the poor and downtrodden of the world from their evil, Nazi jackboots.

[jdobbin]

That's because there is no bill in sight. Once one shows up the Liberals and NDP will howl. The need to drastically tighten up the refugee claim system has been clear to everyone for decades. There were even moves in the last Liberal government to do something about it, but every time something came up the immigrant lawyers howled, and the Liberals backed down for fear of losing ethnic votes in Toronto and Montreal.

We'll see if the Tories back down now because of fear of losing the votes of business if visas are suddenly required for Canadians going to Europe or from tourists dropping off in a recession.

The Tories have been asleep at the wheel on the issue and let the refugee problem fester.

[jdobbin]

Ever here of due process? These things take time, and that is a good thing. Put the refugees in camps like they do everywhere else and I assure you there will be less applicants.

Due process is what is slow and kills jobs. Speed it up.

Refugee camps cost a lot of money and they still don't stop the flow of people. Ask the countries that have them already.

[jdobbin]

Dunno. What was wrong that your party didn't do anything about it over 13 years in office?

Probably because we didn't have a refugee problem with Mexicans and Czechs before 2006.

[Argus]

We'll see if the Tories back down now because of fear of losing the votes of business if visas are suddenly required for Canadians going to Europe or from tourists dropping off in a recession.

The Tories have been asleep at the wheel on the issue and let the refugee problem fester.

The Tories have a minority. They cannot severely restrict refugees as long as the three left wing party remain dedicated to exploting the issue for votes.

[Argus]

Probably because we didn't have a refugee problem with Mexicans and Czechs before 2006.

We had all kinds of refugee problems before 2006. As was written in the Globe column, we had the exact same problem with Chile a dozen years back, and we've had problems since then from this or that country. All that was ever done was to impose visa requirements.

The PC party had the same problem. They, like the Liberals, moved to tighten things up. The immigrant industry howled, and the party, which had a lot more support among immigrant communities in Toronto, backed down. Hell, half the voters in Barbara McDougal's riding were ethnics. She wasn't about to bring in laws which would allow the Liberals and NDP to accuse her of being anti-Immigrant.

[jdobbin]

The Liberal Party of Canada will NEVER allow the system to be fixed. Your history is one of exploiting immigranta and ethnic groups and portraying yourself as their great defender against the evil tories. Guaranteed, the moment the Tories come out with something to strongly tighten refugee claims the Libeals and NDP will howl bloody murder, doing their level best to portray it as racist, heartless and anti-immigrant.

So, the alternative for the Tories is to put up a visa that will cause the Europeans to retaliate and cause Canadians to pay more and hurt business. Likewise, the tourist industry in Canada will get whacked by the Tories by limiting one of the growing areas of the business: travel from Mexico to Canada.

This is a solution?

[You've been doing that for the last twenty five years. That leaves the Tories unable to pass the legislation unless they can buy the votes from the BQ, which could be difficult. Quebec's sentiment is generally pro-immigrant/refugee as long as they're not coming to Quebec - which, for the most part, is the case.

Quebec is pro-immigrant because their population is dropping otherwise.

You're wrong, as usual. The amount we will spend on the refugees, most of whom will be on welfare or social services for much of their lives here, along with their families, is considerably higher, and escalates each year that more of them pour in.

I'm afraid you are wrong. The tourist industry generates far more money for business and government.

[Keepitsimple]

We will have to if we are to process so many visas.

I think you've already said that people are not going to bother ..... and to a large degree, that is true because you have to pay real dollars to obtain a visa....the bogus guys don't like spending money - they just want to arrive and live on OUR dollars. Only the people who have money, plan ahead, and actually want to come here or do business here will get visas.

[Argus]

So, the alternative for the Tories is to put up a visa that will cause the Europeans to retaliate and cause Canadians to pay more and hurt business. Likewise, the tourist industry in Canada will get whacked by the Tories by limiting one of the growing areas of the business: travel from Mexico to Canada.

This is a solution?

Unless your party is willing to agree to severely restricting refugees I don't see what other solution is at hand.

Quebec is pro-immigrant because their population is dropping otherwise.

Riiiight, which is why Quebec accepts FAR and away fewer immigrants than any other province. Quebec has control of its own immigrantion, and gets to set numbers and criteria. Of course, the main criteria is they speak French. Requiring immigrants to Canada to speak English has been decried as racist so we don't make that requirement, but it's okay for Quebec to demand they speak French.

August is pro immigrant, and about half a dozen times now I've challenged him on it, asking him how he'd like for Quebec to take the same numbers of immigrants as Ontario - of mostly non-French speakers. He never answers the question.

I'm afraid you are wrong. The tourist industry generates far more money for business and government.

We're not talking about the "Tourist industry" we're talking about what profit we would gain from that percentage of Mexicans who will now no longer visit VS the costs of housing tens of thousands of Mexicans who don't speak English or French and have no applicable skills or education - indefinitely.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Argus

[Molly]

That's because there is no bill in sight. Once one shows up the Liberals and NDP will howl. The need to drastically tighten up the refugee claim system has been clear to everyone for decades. There were even moves in the last Liberal government to do something about it, but every time something came up the immigrant lawyers howled, and the Liberals backed down for fear of losing ethnic votes in Toronto and Montreal. Whenever the Alliance/Reform/PCs/ Tories raised the issue the Liberals took the position that they were just racists, and that the Liberal party would protect the poor and downtrodden of the world from their evil, Nazi jackboots.

You don't need a bill in the house in order to hire enough staff to address the current backlog and speed up the process. The lack of adequate staff looks like obstruction- an attempt to make the situation look even worse than it is, to make a political case.

The charge of racism is an easy one to make, since the Alliance/Reform/Tories (I don't include the PCs in that list.) provide plenty of evidence for it without being prompted.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Molly

[Moonbox]

Excellent! Maybe we should put visa requirements for the U.S. as well! Sooo much money to come in!

Fix the system then.

5000 refugee claims versus under 300,000 tourists a year.

Which one costs more? I expect the loss of tourism costs are far greater and more immediate.

Look up the average cost of a refugee claim. I bet you it's a way greater drain to deal with that than it would be to lose a percentage of the tourism dollars.

[Moonbox]

So, the alternative for the Tories is to put up a visa that will cause the Europeans to retaliate and cause Canadians to pay more and hurt business. Likewise, the tourist industry in Canada will get whacked by the Tories by limiting one of the growing areas of the business: travel from Mexico to Canada.

Europe will not retaliate. The EU is not one country. They all operate unilaterally and the countries that matter (Western and South Western Europe) have nothing to gain by forcing Canadians to have Visas. There will be no solidarity move here in the EU.

[capricorn]

I agree with Moonbox. There will be squawking from the EU but not much else.

Immigration Minister Jason Kenney said Tuesday he is not worried about retaliation after Canada's decision to slap visas on Mexican and Czech Republic tourists.

Kenney particularly dismissed the Czech government for petitioning the 27-member European Union to invoke its "solidarity" clause that could lead to a retaliatory visa being slapped on Canada.

"There's a certain degree to playing to domestic audience there," Kenney told Canwest News Service.

After speaking with the European Union's acting ambassador to Canada prior to Monday's announcement, Kenney said, "They have never given us any indication they intend to impose a visa restriction on Canada." He said the EU respects the visa requirement Canada has already imposed on its members, Romania and Bulgaria.

http://www.canada.com/Visa+fallout+Tory+wo...2624/story.html

[Keepitsimple]

Europe will not retaliate. The EU is not one country. They all operate unilaterally and the countries that matter (Western and South Western Europe) have nothing to gain by forcing Canadians to have Visas. There will be no solidarity move here in the EU.

You're right. The EU are giving a nudge and a wink to all this because they know that the visa requirements for the Czech Republic is almost entirely due to the influx of "Roma refugees", AKA Gypsies.

[jdobbin]

The Tories have a minority. They cannot severely restrict refugees as long as the three left wing party remain dedicated to exploting the issue for votes.

I keep hearing from the right that the Tories won't act like real Conservatives until they get a majority. From your perspective that can't be a very satisfactory stance since it means the government doesn't make any changes and acts like the Liberals you hate so much.

Instead, the Tories decide to punish Canada's tourism and business people.

[jdobbin]

We had all kinds of refugee problems before 2006. As was written in the Globe column, we had the exact same problem with Chile a dozen years back, and we've had problems since then from this or that country. All that was ever done was to impose visa requirements.

Blame the Liberals if you want.

The solution your party has taken hurts Canadian companies and trade.

The PC party had the same problem. They, like the Liberals, moved to tighten things up. The immigrant industry howled, and the party, which had a lot more support among immigrant communities in Toronto, backed down. Hell, half the voters in Barbara McDougal's riding were ethnics. She wasn't about to bring in laws which would allow the Liberals and NDP to accuse her of being anti-Immigrant.

The present Conservatives are courting the immigrant vote. They'd rather hurt Canadian business in a recession than go against refugees.

[Moonbox]

The present Conservatives are courting the immigrant vote. They'd rather hurt Canadian business in a recession than go against refugees.

I agree with where you're going with this but I also don't think fixing the refugee system will prevent the costs of people coming to the country totally broke without a plane ticket back. You have to have a system to refuse them entry in the first place otherwise we'll end up paying for them anyways.

[Smallc]

I agree with this move, though I'm sure that there will be a few true refugees that will have some trouble because of it. Hopefully this will allow the backlog to be taken care of and the system to be fixed so there isn't a backlog in the future.