Czech ambassador to Canada recalled

[Dave_ON]

This is an interesting article.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/07/14/c...sas-mexico.html

I find it interesting what the Mexican authorities had to say about the situation.

Mexican authorities blamed the rise in bogus claims on "the unrestricted operation of intermediary groups and organizations" which charge fees to assist people in making their cases.

"These organizations have encouraged this practice among Mexicans acting in good faith, charging fees for advisory, logistical and training services to the present fraudulent cases," the government statement.

If this is in fact the case I can appreciate how we would want to curtail this type of behavior. However, is it really fixing the issue or just prolonging the process.

Also the Czech government has implemented a retaliation visa requirement for some Canadians and they're going to attempt to get the EU involved in this issue. We need look no further than the ridiculous seal product embargo to see how very meddlesome the EU can be in instances like this. Thoughts? Should or will the GOC back down should the EU get involved? I personally hope they do not so long as a more permanent and effective screening process is put in place to prevent as much abuse of our refugee status as possible.

[Keepitsimple]

A genuine refugee - one who is fleeing real persecution or ongoing violence in their country is someone who Canada should welcome - at least in numbers that we can reasonably absorb. We have to be very careful about how we define the term "refugee" or we will not be able to help those who really need our help.

[Bonam]

A genuine refugee - one who is fleeing real persecution or ongoing violence in their country is someone who Canada should welcome -

Why?

[Wild Bill]

A genuine refugee - one who is fleeing real persecution or ongoing violence in their country is someone who Canada should welcome - at least in numbers that we can reasonably absorb. We have to be very careful about how we define the term "refugee" or we will not be able to help those who really need our help.

The governments involved are too politically correct to state the REAL reasons Canada is re-instituting the visa requirement! My wife works for the city in the public health department and thus gets a perspective that we 'simple folks' don't.

It's gypsies! Or 'Roma', as they prefer to be called. They are a unique people. Very insular and clannish. They have their own language with little or no connection or history with other European tongues. They live in wandering clans across Europe. They are assumed to be responsible for much petty crime and fraud. It's claimed that they are masters at manipulating state welfare and refugee systems for their own benefit.

They are here in Canada, often under refugee claims. My wife sees examples virtually every day.

And they mostly originate from <surprise!> Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania!

Not surprisingly, ordinary folks across Europe consider them to be a problem. One could argue whether or not the prejudice is justified but not the fact that it is very real. Common folk want them out of their country! Dumping them into Canada is a great idea, as far as they are concerned!

All this talk about 'retaliation' is just that, talk. The Czech government is well aware that while they may see thousands of Roma emigrating to Canada only a handful of people would be coming from Canada to the Czech republic.

They're just trying to embarrass Canada into keeping the door open!

Gypsies look on Canada as an easy mark, with all its social programs. A couple of years ago they 'discovered' us and began to come over in droves when we signed the agreement to make a visa unnecessary. Perhaps that's what the agreement was REALLY about! The Czech government may have felt they were 'snookering' us into taking away some of their problem.

Re-instituting a visa will take us back to the old status quo. Hopefully the Gypsies will find another country to be an easier target.

[Machjo]

Why?

Good question. Look what happened after Jacque Cartier led all those furriners over to the Americas. Do we want the same to happen to us?

[Machjo]

This is why I'm a libertarian for the most part. The problem with the welfare state? It risks attracting the wrong kind, and so we are then forced to stereotype and discriminate against entire ethnic groups in our visa policies. If we should downsize the welfare state considerably, then we could be sure that those who want to come here are coming for the right reasons,a nd so would not longer need to be so severe in our immigration policies. I say let them in, but no government money. Let the charities care for them, and likely make them work too at the same time.

[ToadBrother]

Why?

Because we are signatories to the United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, and are thus bound by domestic and international law.

[ToadBrother]

This is why I'm a libertarian for the most part. The problem with the welfare state? It risks attracting the wrong kind, and so we are then forced to stereotype and discriminate against entire ethnic groups in our visa policies. If we should downsize the welfare state considerably, then we could be sure that those who want to come here are coming for the right reasons,a nd so would not longer need to be so severe in our immigration policies. I say let them in, but no government money. Let the charities care for them, and likely make them work too at the same time.

Refugees are not the same thing as immigrants.

[jdobbin]

Thoughts?

This is going to hit the tourist industry hard in terms of Mexican tourists.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090714/...as_mexico_czech

Mexico was the sixth-largest source of tourists to Canada last year, with 266,000 visitors, and the numbers had been steadily increasing.

Another kick at the tourism industry.

[capricorn]

Another kick at the tourism industry.

So you're thinking that because Mexicans will need a visa to enter Canada, they'll stay home or go elsewhere? I wonder how many other countries Mexicans can enter without a visa.

[jdobbin]

So you're thinking that because Mexicans will need a visa to enter Canada, they'll stay home or go elsewhere? I wonder how many other countries Mexicans can enter without a visa.

I think many will stay home.

[Moonbox]

I think many will stay home.

I think there are not many mexicans that come to canada for vacation regardless and I think the ones that don't come because of this will have a minimal impact on us.

Eliminating 3000 bogus refugee claims, which would cost us many thousands of dollars each, I bet is more than worth whatever percentage of the 266,000 tourists from Mexico we get each year. When it comes to the Czech Republic, the amount of tourism we get from there is pretty much a non-factor.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Moonbox

[capricorn]

If I wanted to visit a country bad enough and that country required a visa, I wouldn't let the requirement of a visa stand in my way. Mexican visitors whose plans are in the works will be inconvenienced in the short term. Once it becomes a known and accepted practice, potential visitors will adapt.

What's wrong with setting the terms for entering our country?

[jdobbin]

I think there are not many mexicans that come to canada for vacation.

It is the sixth largest and one of the fastest rising in terms of tourism for Canada.

Mexicans are more spontaneous in their travel plans according to CBC and CTV reports tonight.

[jdobbin]

If I wanted to visit a country bad enough and that country required a visa, I wouldn't let the requirement of a visa stand in my way. Mexican visitors whose plans are in the works will be inconvenienced in the short term. Once it becomes a known and accepted practice, potential visitors will adapt.

The stats reveal that Mexicans are more spontaneous travellers according to CTV tonight. The visa requirement is already making people cancel their plans.

The time to process the paperwork is too long. It will also cost $400 for a single family.

What's wrong with setting the terms for entering our country?

What is wrong with the hiring more people to process refugee claims and stopping the flow there?

Edited July 15, 2009 by jdobbin

[capricorn]

It is the sixth largest and one of the fastest rising in terms of tourism for Canada.

Heavens! Maybe they'll drop to seventh place.

Mexicans are more spontaneous in their travel plans according to CBC and CTV reports tonight.

Oh. That makes a big difference and explains everything.

[jdobbin]

Heavens! Maybe they'll drop to seventh place.

Oh. That makes a big difference and explains everything.

Maybe they'll drop off completely and unemployment will go up in Canada in the middle of a recession.

It will also cost $400 for a family to travel from Mexico to Canada for a visa. Don't know about you but that sounds like a major impediment.

I know Tories think this is all well and good but we keep hearing that the government shouldn't be making decision that hurt Canada. This is going to hurt Canada.

The problem should be solved some other way.

[capricorn]

The time to process the paperwork is too long. It will also cost $400 for a single family.

Good. We need the income.

What is wrong with the hiring more people to process refugee claims and stopping the flow there?

Because once they set foot in this country and declare themselves refugees, the present system to evaluate their refugee claims can be extended ad nauseum. That costs taxpayers a bundle.

[jdobbin]

Good. We need the income.

Excellent! Maybe we should put visa requirements for the U.S. as well! Sooo much money to come in!

Because once they set foot in this country and declare themselves refugees, the present system to evaluate their refugee claims can be extended ad nauseum. That costs taxpayers a bundle.

Fix the system then.

5000 refugee claims versus under 300,000 tourists a year.

Which one costs more? I expect the loss of tourism costs are far greater and more immediate.

[capricorn]

Fix the system then.

Amen to that.

Just saw this which ran tonight in the Globe just as you and I were speaking about it here.

Canada needs a refugee-claims system that will quickly turn away those who falsely claim persecution to take advantage of the country's generosity, Immigration Minister Jason Kenney says.

Imposing visa restrictions on Czechs and Mexicans was necessary to stem a rising flow of claimants, he said, but what is really needed is an asylum system that accepts or rejects refugees quickly – and he indicated he is working on a reform proposal: “Stay tuned,” he said.

---

For Mr. Kenney, it wouldn't be necessary to impose visa restrictions to stem the flow of asylum-seekers if false claimants knew before coming that their cases would be decided swiftly and they would be returned home immediately after a decision was made.

“This does underscore the need to reform our asylum system so that it ensures that real victims of persecution get swift relief and protection in Canada, and that economic migrants seeking to abuse our generosity are shown to the door quickly,” he said.

Although he would not say precisely what reforms he has in mind, the government is studying changes made by Britain in 2004.

It is considering borrowing ideas like giving immigration officers the first decision on refugee claims rather than a tribunal, reducing layers of appeals, and fast-tracking claims from countries that are generally considered safe in an effort to send home rejected claimants sooner.

Ottawa placed the restrictions on citizens of Mexico and the Czech Republic to counter a rising number of travellers who claimed refugee status in Canada rather than return home.

----

Mr. Kenney declined to say if he will consider limiting appeals to the Federal Court of Canada, but said any change would have to respect “due process, natural justice, and the Charter of Rights.”

He said the problem is that individuals who do not really face persecution are able to claim refugee status in Canada and stay for years while their case is heard – and even if they are rejected, sometimes win an appeal to stay on humanitarian grounds because they have a settled life here.

“It's not lost on economic migrants who want to jump the queue that we have a system that's fairly easy to abuse. And where people can settle in Canada, sometimes for several years, with a mixture of a work permit and/or social benefits, and if they're determined to, they can game our system and abuse our generosity,” he said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politi...article1218020/

[jdobbin]

Amen to that.

Just saw this which ran tonight in the Globe just as you and I were speaking about it here.

This problem with Mexico refugee claims is a fairly new one. I have no idea why the Tories didn't fix it in 2007 when it was first brought to the attention of the government. It isn't like there was anyone stopping a fix from happening.

[Molly]

http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/columnists...137471-sun.html

This opinion piece captures my first take on it. A bit strenuous, perhaps, but touches on all the things that make my brow furrow over it.

Everyone seems light on stats, and the ones they do use are grabbed from all over and thus hopelessly inconsistent, but for both nations, the number of refugee claimants as a portion of the tourists who arrive here is stunningly high-- so the abuse is obvious.

The extraordinarily short notice on visa requirement is... a doubtful tactic. Yes, notice would precipitate a bunch hurrying to get under the wire, but to put so many people who who already have travel arrangements made in such a bad position is stunningly unwelcoming. I'd think twice about planning to visit any nation that had done such a thing to others, in fear of being caught up in the same sort of debacle... so the impact on tourism will likely extend well beyond Mexico and Czechoslovakia.

I note the complaint that Canada creates its own backlog by dragging feet about staffing boards... aka obstruction, to magnify the problem...

And the whiff of racism is as undeniable as the abuse of the system.

[Keepitsimple]

This problem with Mexico refugee claims is a fairly new one. I have no idea why the Tories didn't fix it in 2007 when it was first brought to the attention of the government. It isn't like there was anyone stopping a fix from happening.

Just wait for the firestorm when the Tories try to "fix" the sytem - how they are discriminating - how they are not allowing due process - how racistly arbitrary they are. Mark my words, the refugee lawyers who extend hearings for years will be up in arms. That lobby group has the ear of media like The Star. Just wait for the word "outraged" to start appearing. We all know that refugee claims should be dealt with very swiftly because for each one that cheats, for each one that bogs down the system, there are 10's and 100's of genuine ones that are affected.

[jdobbin]

Just wait for the firestorm when the Tories try to "fix" the sytem - how they are discriminating - how they are not allowing due process - how racistly arbitrary they are. Mark my words, the refugee lawyers who extend hearings for years will be up in arms. That lobby group has the ear of media like The Star. Just wait for the word "outraged" to start appearing. We all know that refugee claims should be dealt with very swiftly because for each one that cheats, for each one that bogs down the system, there are 10's and 100's of genuine ones that are affected.

That may well be but, as I said, there is no movement in the House now to stop the process of hiring more people in the department to process the work quickly.

Even with visas, as some people have noted, it won't stop some from overstaying their visas or claiming refugee status. The problem remains one that has to be fixed in the department itself.

[Argus]

Good question. Look what happened after Jacque Cartier led all those furriners over to the Americas. Do we want the same to happen to us?

No. You're quite correct. That's why we should halt immigration. I'm glad you agree.