Amnesty details Gaza 'war crimes'

[dub]

An excellent point. That's why Israel can and does strike against terrorist targets in Gaza despite the presence of civilians. The presence of these "protected persons" does not render these areas immune from military operations.

incredible.

did the whole part about the IDF using civilians as human shields go unnoticed?

[Bonam]

incredible.

did the whole part about the IDF using civilians as human shields go unnoticed?

The quoted part of the article you yourself posted said that the Israeli Supreme Court has already found such actions to be illegal and has prohibited them. What more would you like Israel to do?

[KrustyKidd]

looks like you're really reaching.

you're basically saying that a former british commander in afghanistan who has not been to gaza and who has not done an investigation knows more about what happened in gaza than an expert and reputable human rights organization who went to gaza and investigated and came up with a report that details the evidence of war crimes by both israel and hamas?

okay you win, dancer..err.. dop...err.. krusty.

You doubt his credentials?

Colonel Richard Kemp, CBE, served in the British Army from 1977 - 2006. He was Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, was an Infantry battalion Commanding Officer, worked for the Joint Intelligence Committee and COBRA and completed 14 operational tours of duty around the globe. He now runs a private security operation in London, advises on defence and security issues and works on behalf of soldiers and families of soldiers killed and wounded in action.

Here's AI's head;

Irene Khan is responsible for developing and co-ordinating strategies to promote and protect human rights. She builds and maintains high-level external relations, representing the movement and its concerns to governments, inter-governmental organisations, the world’s media and the general public. She takes a leading role in decision-making in crisis situations.

The Secretary General guides the work of worldwide sections and structures through international meetings, while co-ordinating the plans of the International Secretariat. She has overall responsibility - through senior managers - for implementing the IEC's strategies, work plans and budgets. She also participates in the movement's fundraising activities.

Now who do you think would know more about what happens in a war zone, the guy who studied people like the IDF and Hamas for over thirty years or the lady who guides international meetings?

Fookin' Dub, you make me laugh.

[KrustyKidd]

you are ridiculous and i will tell you why.

#1 - an investigation by amnesty has shown that hamas did commit war crimes, but using civilians as human shields was not committed by hamas. it was actually committed by israel.

#2 - you're saying that hamas should not have hid in the towns and buildings and should have gone head to head with tanks, helicopters and planes in open air.

you are ridiculous.

As I stated, Hamas using civilian centers of population as bases to attack and, naturally expect retaliation in expectation of propaganda victories with your biased AI is the same as using people as human shields.

#2 - you're saying that hamas should not have hid in the towns and buildings and should have gone head to head with tanks, helicopters and planes in open air.

HELLOOOOOO. ANYBODY IN THERE?

What I'm saying is that Hamas should not have been attacking anybody and therefore, there would be no Israeli counter action and therefore, no need to "have gone head to head with tanks, helicopters and planes in open air."

you are ridiculous.

Hang on a sec Dub. Take a deep deep breath. Now, consider this for just a second.

Relaxed? Ok, now ............................

don't you think a lot of this could have been avoided is Hamas did not fire rockets at Israel? You know, negotiate, that sort of thing?

[DogOnPorch]

Nor have any of these Hamas /Hezbollah bozos ever heard of Ghandi, apparently. Doesn't involve killing Jews, I guess.

[KrustyKidd]

Nor have any of these Hamas /Hezbollah bozos ever heard of Ghandi, apparently. Doesn't involve killing Jews, I guess.

Speaking of Gandhi, he wasn't exactly the pacifist that so many echo chamber attendees make him out to be. I can, however, see why Dub used him as an example earlier today as he does share the same 'foook it' disposable attitude towards his own when he needs to make a political point. Deliberately placing his own people in positions where their actions and inaction's were certain to cause a predicted reaction - beating people to a pulp so he (or Hamas) can show the koolective how brutal the British/Israelis are.

When I hear one of these morons use him as an example of how things can be changed peacefully I laugh. There is a reason why he never won the Nobel Peace prize - he deliberately caused misery and death and in fact, possibly should have been tried as a war criminal for inciting violence which caused the deaths of thousands and, ultimately placed his country into separation mode with hundreds of thousands dead and millions displaced with two nuclear armed nations pointing Jihad Busters at each other.

Edited July 17, 2009 by KrustyKidd

[dub]

The quoted part of the article you yourself posted said that the Israeli Supreme Court has already found such actions to be illegal and has prohibited them. What more would you like Israel to do?

they've broken not only their own law but also international law.

is the IDF some kind of an angel organization to you?

you seem to be in some strange denial.

[DogOnPorch]

Speaking of Gandhi, he wasn't exactly the pacifist that so many echo chamber attendees make him out to be. I can, however, see why Dub used him as an example earlier today as he does share the same 'foook it' disposable attitude towards his own when he needs to make a political point. Deliberately placing his own people in positions where their actions and inaction's were certain to cause a predicted reaction - beating people to a pulp so he (or Hamas) can show the koolective how brutal the British/Israelis are.

When I hear one of these morons use him as an example of how things can be changed peacefully I laugh. There is a reason why he never won the Nobel Peace prize - he deliberately caused misery and death and in fact, possibly should have been tried as a war criminal for inciting violence which caused the deaths of thousands and, ultimately placed his country into separation mode with hundreds of thousands dead and millions displaced with two nuclear armed nations pointing Jihad Busters at each other.

No, no...tell me what you really think.

You do have a point there. Maybe Ghandi isn't a good choice, then.

Forget the hunger strike, lads. Grab your guns.

[dub]

When I hear one of these morons use him as an example of how things can be changed peacefully I laugh.

i laugh too.

israel doesn't want peace. not a just peace anyway. they'd settle for the palestinians living in an open air prison with no control over their so-called state and then throw in the word "state" just to say that they accept it.

if you want to make fun of gandhi and call him a failure, then you truly are a sad case.

[KrustyKidd]

i laugh too.

israel doesn't want peace. not a just peace anyway. they'd settle for the palestinians living in an open air prison with no control over their so-called state and then throw in the word "state" just to say that they accept it.

If that is the case then why don't they take the easy way out and build a wall and forget about the problem?

if you want to make fun of gandhi and call him a failure, then you truly are a sad case.

So to you the end justifies the means. Didn't figure you for that type, I mean, if you beleive that then you must be a supporter of GW Bush and the Iraq invasion and all.

[dub]

If that is the case then why don't they take the easy way out and build a wall and forget about the problem?

what are you babbling about?

So to you the end justifies the means. Didn't figure you for that type, I mean, if you beleive that then you must be a supporter of GW Bush and the Iraq invasion and all.

seriously. what are you babbling about? you're losing it. do you even know what you're talking about? i think gandhi is a righteous man, so therefore i support bush and the iraq invasion? do you even read what you type?

wait a second. are you DoP's other account?

[dub]

ah. of course.

i understand what's happening here.

gandhi, the righteous man, criticized the creation of israel and therefore he's off krusty's, dancer's, dop's and maybe bonam's xmas list.

oh wait. i don't think they celebrate xmas.

but anyway, you're reacting like this because of his view:

Several letters have been received by me asking me to declare my views about the Arab-Jew question in Palestine and persecution of the Jews in Germany. It is not without hesitation that I venture to offer my views on this very difficult question. My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity [...] But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood? Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct.

Published in Harijan on November 26, 1938

[KrustyKidd]

what are you babbling about?

If you contend that Israel is singularly intent on owning all the land then why would they not just wash their hands of the entire problem and finish their wall, close all borders making attack from Gaza and the West bank impossible?

seriously. what are you babbling about? you're losing it. do you even know what you're talking about? i think gandhi is a righteous man, so therefore i support bush and the iraq invasion? do you even read what you type?

wait a second. are you DoP's other account?

ah. of course.

i understand what's happening here.

gandhi, the righteous man, criticized the creation of israel and therefore he's off krusty's, dancer's, dop's and maybe bonam's xmas list.

oh wait. i don't think they celebrate xmas.

but anyway, you're reacting like this because of his view:

How about you do a bit of research on Gandhi before posting again. Then at least you will have some idea of who and what he was and did. You know, methodology, setting up of protests and all. Partition, the ensuing chaos, why he never won the Nobel.

[Bonam]

but anyway, you're reacting like this because of his view:

Gandhi is (was) free to offer his view, as others are free to disagree with his view. What does any of this have to do with Gandhi anyway?

Also, the history and justification of Israel's creation in 1948 is an entirely different debate than present events and what course of action should be taken in the future. Even if one were to agree with Gandhi's statement that you quoted, nevertheless the state of Israel now exists and millions of Jews live there, and that's not going to change, not unless the Arabs achieve their oft-proclaimed goal of genocide anyway.

i don't think they celebrate xmas.

What exactly are you trying to imply?

[tango]

Where would they 'flee?' Egypt? Nope. Israel? Perfect for Hamas.

best solution would have been for Hamas not to have put their people in danger by using them as shields when attacking Israeli civilians. What think about that idea Tango?

I think you argue a lousy case:

3 Israeli citizens killed.

900 Gazan civilians killed.

Oh yah, they were really attacking Israeli civilians, weren't they??

Best solution would still be for Israel to withdraw from occupying Gaza and the West Bank.

[KrustyKidd]

I think you argue a lousy case:

3 Israeli citizens killed.

900 Gazan civilians killed.

Oh yah, they were really attacking Israeli civilians, weren't they??

Best solution would still be for Israel to withdraw from occupying Gaza and the West Bank.

Tango, let's try to keep some semblence of order in the thread. You said;

Of course, Israel could have opened the borders to let the civilians flee, but refused to do so.

This is a ridiculous argument.

And I said;

Where would they 'flee?' Egypt? Nope. Israel? Perfect for Hamas.

best solution would have been for Hamas not to have put their people in danger by using them as shields when attacking Israeli civilians. What think about that idea Tango?

So, if Israel did open the borders so people could flee, where would they go? And then, once you address that, we can move onto your expanded point of Israel pulling out of the occupied territories and then, I can point out to you that Hamas will continue their attacks until there are no more Israelis in what they consider to be the entirety of Palestine according to their charter.

So, where would they flee to if the borders were opened?

[Bonam]

I think you argue a lousy case:

3 Israeli citizens killed.

900 Gazan civilians killed.

Oh yah, they were really attacking Israeli civilians, weren't they??

What, not enough Jewish blood spilled for your taste? Must really irk you that Israel is good at defending itself and thus managed to keep its casualties down. Hamas on the other hand purposefully sacrifices its people to get media sympathy, thus Gazan casualties are high.

[dub]

If you contend that Israel is singularly intent on owning all the land then why would they not just wash their hands of the entire problem and finish their wall, close all borders making attack from Gaza and the West bank impossible?

have you seen the settlements and how they're spread all over the west bank, kind of like an aggressive cancer that spreads inside a body? plus, israel still has to answer to the US. they've been systematically stealing land for the past few decades. there is no way, even with the heavy israeli lobbies, israel would be able to get away with a sudden grab of everything. stop making ridiculous comments.

it's all in the numbers krusty. israel's illegal settlements continue to increase and they continue to steal more land. this is another fact that you can't dispute.

How about you do a bit of research on Gandhi before posting again. Then at least you will have some idea of who and what he was and did. You know, methodology, setting up of protests and all. Partition, the ensuing chaos, why he never won the Nobel.

lol. this reminded me how you compared my respect for someone as righteous as gandhi, to support for bush's war on iraq.

do you ever read what you write? is this a case of you not being able to properly express yourself or do you really believe some of the shit, like the comparison to bush and gandhi, that you type?

[DogOnPorch]

...kind of like an aggressive cancer that spreads inside a body?

Jews = Cancer

[dub]

Gandhi is (was) free to offer his view, as others are free to disagree with his view. What does any of this have to do with Gandhi anyway?

Also, the history and justification of Israel's creation in 1948 is an entirely different debate than present events and what course of action should be taken in the future. Even if one were to agree with Gandhi's statement that you quoted, nevertheless the state of Israel now exists and millions of Jews live there, and that's not going to change, not unless the Arabs achieve their oft-proclaimed goal of genocide anyway.

yes. israel exists but there is nothing wrong with visiting history to see how it came to exist and what sacrifices were made for its existence.

i don't think gandhi ever thought that the zionist movement was going to be stopped, but after pressure from around the world for his backing of the jewish state, he made it loud and clear that he thought it was wrong.

What exactly are you trying to imply?

i'm implying that most of you probably don't celebrate xmas. do you celebrate it? because if you do, you can correct me.

[KrustyKidd]

have you seen the settlements and how they're spread all over the west bank, kind of like an aggressive cancer that spreads inside a body? plus, israel still has to answer to the US. they've been systematically stealing land for the past few decades. there is no way, even with the heavy israeli lobbies, israel would be able to get away with a sudden grab of everything. stop making ridiculous comments.

it's all in the numbers krusty. israel's illegal settlements continue to increase and they continue to steal more land. this is another fact that you can't dispute.

And the Palestinians continue to terrorize. When one stops they will have moral superiority and, possibly peace will break out.

lol. this reminded me how you compared my respect for someone as righteous as gandhi, to support for bush's war on iraq.

do you ever read what you write? is this a case of you not being able to properly express yourself or do you really believe some of the shit, like the comparison to bush and gandhi, that you type?

I asked you to read up on Gandhi so we could speak of this intelligently. Please do so and get back to me when you think you have it.

[M.Dancer]

lol. this reminded me how you compared my respect for someone as righteous as gandhi, to support for bush's war on iraq.

Gandhi Ji Righteous?

I suppose even righteous people could oppose the second world war and go to bed with his nieces..(to test his resistence to temptation)

[dub]

And the Palestinians continue to terrorize. When one stops they will have moral superiority and, possibly peace will break out.

- when is the last time there were 'terrorist attacks' that came from the west bank?

- how do settlements stop terror?

- how is increasing the settlements an answer to peace?

you've drawn one of your few cards in the face of logic. this time, you are trying to justify illegal actions by israel by using self-defense and terror.

no one buys these empty rhetoric.

I asked you to read up on Gandhi so we could speak of this intelligently. Please do so and get back to me when you think you have it.

i rather not talk about gandhi with you. you don't deserve it. especially not after saying that support for gandhi's ideology is like supporting bush's war on iraq.

i don't want to debate your altered universe.

Edited July 17, 2009 by dub

[dub]

none of the apologists wanted to touch the proof that israel used civilians as human shields and i'm sure they don't want to touch this one either:

1.1.1 AIR STRIKES AGAINST BUILDINGS

Israeli F-16 combat aircraft bombed several homes full of civilians, killing their inhabitants

and in some cases neighbours and relatives who had taken shelter with them after being

forced to flee their own homes.

F-16 combat aircraft drop their bombs from a high altitude and cannot directly see their

targets. Their targets are either pre-selected and may not be monitored at the time of the

attack, or may be observed by other surveillance mechanisms, usually by drones, which feed

the coordinates of the targets and other information to the F-16s in real time. In either case,

the munitions used are high-precision bombs of up to one ton, capable of carrying out

pinpoint strikes.

“No, I don’t sit in my plane and see some terrorist launching a Kassam rocket and then decide to fly over him.

There’s an entire system that supports us and works as our eyes and ears and intelligence, for every plane in

the air. This system constantly produces more targets for us at whatever level of legitimacy. In any case I try to

believe that these are targets at the highest possible level of legitimacy. Anyway, this system creates targets

for us. I come to the squadron, get a target with a description and coordinates. Basically I just check that it

isn’t within the lines of our forces, check the photo of the house I’m supposed to attack, compare it with the

situation on the ground and what I see with some other device I have, take off, press the button - and then the

bomb directs itself to the target with a level of accuracy of one meter.

During Operation “Cast Lead” some people were telephoned by the Israeli army and told to

leave their homes because they were going to be bombed after a few minutes.26 According to

Amnesty International’s information, except for one case,27 those who received such calls

complied with the orders and evacuated their homes before they were bombed. However,

members of at least six families whose relatives were killed when their homes were bombed

told Amnesty International that they had not received any prior warnings. In all of these cases

the houses were located in built-up areas which the residents presumed would be safer than

elsewhere in Gaza. In none of the cases is there any evidence to suggest that the houses or

their inhabitants could have been considered military targets.

Five sisters from the Ba’alusha family – Jawaher, Dina, Samar, Ikram and Tahrir, aged four to

17 years – were crushed to death under the rubble of their home in Jabalia, in northern Gaza.

The house collapsed when the Israeli army bombed the next door ‘Imad ‘Aqel Mosque at

about 11.45pm on 29 December 2008. The family had received no warning and were asleep.

Two other sisters, 11-year-old Samah and 17-year-old Iman, who were sleeping in the same

room were injured. The parents and two other siblings, a two-week-old baby girl and an 16-

month-old boy, were sleeping in another room and mostly sustained light injuries. Other

nearby houses were also damaged in the strike.

The Israeli army was quoted as saying that the mosque had been targeted because it was a

“known gathering place” of Hamas members. It also said four gunmen were inside it at the

time of the attack.28 Amnesty International delegates visited the site but due to the extent of

the destruction could not establish if the mosque had been used by armed groups to store

weapons or for other purposes. Nor could it be confirmed whether Palestinian fighters were in

the mosque at the time of the strike. The Israeli army for its part has not made available any

evidence substantiating these claims, such as the name of the fighters who were reportedly in

the mosque at the time. However, even if the Israeli army’s allegations were accurate, this

would not have relieved the army of its obligation to take precautions against harming

civilians, including giving them effective warning.

When planning to target the mosque the army would have been aware that a strike on such a

scale was virtually guaranteed to destroy the small house adjacent to it. The army could have

warned the Ba’alusha family to leave their home.

The mother of the five dead girls, Samira Ba’alusha, told Amnesty International: “We would

not have stayed a minute if we had known that they were going to bomb by our house; we

would have gone anywhere to protect the children.”

[M.Dancer]

1.1.1 AIR STRIKES AGAINST BUILDINGS

In dub land buildings are protected by International law...