Termination of the James Randi Challenge

[davidmabus0202]

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http://www.sotoman.info/freethinking/index.php?topic=1198.0

The Termination of the James Randi Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtyJbIOZjS8

Edited June 30, 2009 by davidmabus0202

[segnosaur]

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http://www.sotoman.info/freethinking/index.php?topic=1198.0

The Termination of the James Randi Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge

Yes indeed, the Million Dollar Challenge is being cancelled.

I am wondering though... why EXACTLY are you using such idiotic sources for this information? You could have easily gone to any number of more reputable sites. Heck, you could even go to James Randi's actual site:

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-cha...oming-soon.html

(Actually, this looks like a spam message, which has been posted on many sites on the internet.)

In fact, whomever made the posting on the web site you referred to is a flaming idiot. They're tell Randi to 'start up the challenge' again... yet the challenge doesn't officially end until next year. If there are any claimants who actually have supernatural ability they have plenty of time to get tested before the challenge ends.

Not only that, James Randi is not the only one offering a prize for showing supernatural ability; other skeptic groups also offer a prize.

For anyone not familiar with the situation, James Randi is a former magician and head of a skeptics group called the James Randi Educational Foundation. Randi got tired of seeing frauds like Uri Geller claiming they has psychic ability, when all they were doing was using simple tricks that ANYONE can do. So, he started issuing a prize (starting with $10,000, but increasing to over $1,000,000) to anyone who can prove the existance of any supernatural abilty. This includes anything like:

- Communicate with to the dead

- predict the future

- Astrology

- Dowsing

- Telekenisis

- Remote Viewing

- Homeopaths

The idea is that anyone claiming to do any of this stuff has to be able to do so under controlled condtions.

After many years, not one person has come anywhere NEAR claiming the prize. The reason? Once proper controls are in place, people's supposed "abilities" disappear.

For years, the existance of the challenge has been quite useful to skeptics like me... we can always ask any supposed psychic "Why haven't you applied for the challenge". (The simple answer is that most psychics, astrologers, homeopaths, etc. are frauds and don't want their lack of real ability exposed.) However, there are a couple of problems with the challenge:

- None of the "big names", such as Sylvia Browne, John Edward, or Uri Gellar would allow themselves to be tested. (These people are the real big con artists, defrauding people of millions of dollars a year... not suprising that they wouldn't want to be exposed.)

- Many of the people who HAVE applied have been, well, shall we say, rather difficult... They are often evasive about what supposed 'powers' they have, they don't like the idea of how they will do proper double blind tests, etc. All this effort trying to get certain people to agree to get tested, only to have them drop out at the end was fairly time consuming

Now, the prize money for the challenge has basically been sitting in a bank account for years. For the problems I mentioned above, it was felt that that money could be better used in other ways in order to expose various frauds, rather than just sitting idle collecting interest.

Randi is not 'running scared' as the reference you gave indicates. He's just trying to use his resources in an optimum way.

[scorpio]

The other side also has a million dollar challenge.

[segnosaur]

The other side also has a million dollar challenge.

The difference is, the one James Randi is running is genuine... the one run by Victor Zammit that you referred to is nothing but a farce, an absolute load of bunk.

First of all, the tests run by James Randi are actually winnable.... you do not have to explain your powers, you just have to demonstrate that they exist. The Zammit 'challenge' asks the skeptic to disprove, beyond ALL doubt, the existance of an afterlife. From a logical perspective, you can never actually disprove the existance of anything. I can't even disprove that there's an invisible pink unicorn living in my sock drawer.

So, under the Zammit challenge, even if he brings in 1000 psychics who claim to talk to the spirits, and you manage to demonstrate each and every one of them is a fraud, that still doesn't PROVE that people can't speak to dead people since Zammit may be holding out hope that psychic 1001 actually does have that ability.

Secondly, in the tests offered by James Randi, there is no 'judging' involved... either the claimant gets things right or they don't. (Example: either the psychic guesses 10 coin flips in a row and wins, or they fail to guess the next 10 in a row and they fail). There is no way to 'stack' the results. In the Zammit case, the decsion about who wins or looses is decided upon by a committee, and members of the committee must be approved by Zammit. Zammit can easily guarantee that the only members who are on his committee are people who have the same nonsensical beliefs that he does. Randi does not have any control over the results of any tests he does, and he certainly can't cheat the system like Zammit can.

http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Million_Dollar_Prize#Zammit

http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/%22You_Ca...ammit_Challenge

Edited June 30, 2009 by segnosaur

[scorpio]

The Zammit 'challenge' asks the skeptic to disprove, beyond ALL doubt, the existance of an afterlife.

Not true. He is only asking to disprove the evidence he has gathered.

[segnosaur]

Not true. He is only asking to disprove the evidence he has gathered.

Actually, no he isn't....

First of all, he doesn't just ask you to disprove the evidence HE has gathered. He also lists several authors who are fellow believers in nonsense that you have to disprove. Not only that, he also asks you to disprove the evidence provided by the "Inner Peace Movement"; without pointing out exactly what evidence the "Inner Peace Movement" is providing. Basically, he's attempting to create such an open-ended set of conditions that any skeptic trying to take his 'challenge' would end up bogged down by endless claims on his part.

Secondly, you seem to ignore the part about any skeptic having to prove their case beyond ALL doubt. This is a greater burden of proof than even a prosecutor needs in order to send someone to jail. (And this is done before people approved of by Zammit himself.)

Tell me, do you really think its a fair challenge when he can throw moutains and mountains of bunk at any skeptic, AND can pick people like John Edward and Sylvia Brown as the judges as to whether the skeptic is successful?

[scorpio]

Actually, I think the challenges on each side will never be paid, regardless of evidence presented. Zammit is a lawyer and Randi is a con man magician. Randi uses such phrases as satisfactory observing conditions, within the agreed-upon limits and a person having media presence in his challenge, rendering it impossible especially if JR is the judge himself. I think it is really a joke on both parts.

[segnosaur]

Actually, I think the challenges on each side will never be paid, regardless of evidence presented. Zammit is a lawyer and Randi is a con man magician. Randi uses such phrases as satisfactory observing conditions, within the agreed-upon limits and a person having media presence in his challenge...

Uhhhh.... No.

Randi is not a 'con man magician'. He is up front about exactly what he does. He does not claim 'supernatural' ability; instead, he comes out and says "this is a trick I am doing"... pretty much the exact opposite of what a 'con man' is.

And his statement about "satisfactory observing conditions"? Bascially, he wants to make sure people can't cheat. That means if someone claims to be able to, for example, guess the results of flipping a coin 10 times in a row, Randi will actually want such a test done with people watching who are familiar with stage tricks. (You see, as a former professional magician, Randi is familiar with how illusions are staged, thus making him and people like him ideal for running these tests... they can identify how frauds like Geller, Browne, and Edward run their scams.)

Of course, it is true that neither challenge will ever be paid, but for very different reasons:

- Zammit's challenge will never be paid because his 'challenge' is not actually a good-faith attempt at running a challenge.

- Randi's challenge will (probably) never be paid because psychics, faith healers, astrologers, dowsers, and others who claim supernatural ability tend to be frauds and con artists who cannot do what they claim to be able to do once proper experimental controls are put in place.

...rendering it impossible especially if JR is the judge himself. I think it is really a joke on both parts.

You know, I have to say, that's pretty much the dumbest thing you've posted in this thread, and that's saying a lot, given the fact that you think Zammit's "challenge" is the same as Randi's.

Really, its a totally moronic statement, and shows a complete ignorance of the rules layed out by both Randi and Zammit. The most moronic part is that you completely ignore the fact that I dealt with all this previously... If you go back and read my posting from Jun 30 2009 at 12:38 PM, you will see that I pointed out that in Randi's challenge there is no judging involved. None. Nada. Zip. Ziltch.

Fior example, if someone says they have the supernatural ability to guess the results of flipping a coin 10 times in a row, you count the number of successful flips. No judging at all. Neither Randi nor anyone else ever has to say "I THINK the result of that coin flip was a heads". The answer is obvious, with out any sort of 'judge'. And the same rules (i.e. never requiring a 'judge') applies to ALL tests that Randi runs.

Compare that to Zammit and his "challenge". Under HIS rules, the decision about who is right and who is wrong is decided by a committee, and those judges have to be approved by Zammit himself. There is no "empirical evidence", no absolute way to tell if someone is right or wrong (as you could with something like a coin flip); instead, you have to convince people to change their opinion, and Zammit has the ability to select people who are heavily into nonsense.

Please, before you go out and start spouting off nonsense about how you think the 'rules' of each of the challenges works, PLEASE go back and do a little actual research. At the very least, GO BACK AND READ THE EXPLAINATIONS I'VE ALREADY WRITTEN.

[scorpio]

deleted

Edited July 2, 2009 by scorpio

[segnosaur]

deleted

Probably the smartest thing you've said in this entire thread.

[davidmabus0202]

First of all: Nostradamus demolishes "atheism"

____________________________________________________

wait, wait...

I forgot something...

you little shits even talk about me....

GOATS ON FIRE....

LIBERATION!

Sing from the rooftops:

"Atheism is dead!"

http://www.conspiracycafe.net/forum/index.php?/topic/25104-atheist-apocalypse/page__pid__117856_

[GostHacked]

Actually, I think the challenges on each side will never be paid, regardless of evidence presented. Zammit is a lawyer and Randi is a con man magician. Randi uses such phrases as satisfactory observing conditions, within the agreed-upon limits and a person having media presence in his challenge, rendering it impossible especially if JR is the judge himself. I think it is really a joke on both parts.

From Zammits site

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/4thedition/chapter29.html

After many years of serious investigation I have come to the irretrievable conclusion that there is a great body of evidence which, taken as a whole, absolutely and unqualifiedly proves the case for the afterlife.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/irretrievable

irretrievable definition

ir·re·triev·able (-trēv′ə bəl)

adjective

that cannot be retrieved, recovered, restored, or recalled

We don't need to go any further than Chapter 2.

[jbg]

First of all: Nostradamus demolishes "atheism"

Al Stewart does far more justice to Nostradamus than you do.

[cybercoma]

Still waiting to hear what the next validated prediction from Nostradamus will be.

[jbg]

Still waiting to hear what the next validated prediction from Nostradamus will be.

Nostradamus actually predicted that Toronto would have more daylight on March 10, 2010 than February 10, 2010.

[Guest TrueMetis]

I was hopeing this thread would be a bit more entertaining.

[M.Dancer]

I predicted it wouldn't be...

[jbg]

I was hopeing this thread would be a bit more entertaining.

All you need is Whowhere, Schwa and charter.rights.

[jbg]

So boring no responses?

[Jack Weber]

They keep banning the only person who could make it entertaining...

[jbg]

They keep banning the only person who could make it entertaining...

He/she/it is a bit "meshugana" (I know that word isn't in Canadian).

[Jack Weber]

He/she/it is a bit "meshugana" (I know that word isn't in Canadian).

My cousins are Jewish...

I know exactly what that word means...

[wyly]

i recall a psychic on a radio call-in program, he did all the usual predictions "you're planning a long vacation"(nearly everyone is), "someone you know has a back condition"(nearly 70% of the population) all the easy stuff, then someone asked him to predict the winner of the World Series and he refused, even if he knew nothing about baseball the worst he could do was 50/50...the difference was if someone bet money on his guess and lost it could come back to highlight his error....