Feds won't force veiled women to uncover to vote

[jdobbin]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...0626?hub=Canada

The federal government has quietly dropped the idea of forcing veiled women to show their faces if they want to vote in Canadian elections.

The loss of interest comes just as the issue of face coverings is heating up overseas, with President Nicolas Sarkozy declaring that the Islamic burka is "not welcome" in France.

Think the Tories have finally admitted that they made this an issue when it really wasn't one.

The various rules on pictures, addresses and like threatened to disenfranchise many of their own voters who didn't have photo ID and who had rural addresses that were P.O. Boxes.

The veil issue turned out to be confusing because how can you tell who a person is if they don't have a picture ID? And if you require a photo ID, you then seem to require it as a citizen. Many people don't have photos if they don't drive anymore. And not everyone has a passport.

[Borg]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...0626?hub=Canada

Think the Tories have finally admitted that they made this an issue when it really wasn't one.

The various rules on pictures, addresses and like threatened to disenfranchise many of their own voters who didn't have photo ID and who had rural addresses that were P.O. Boxes.

The veil issue turned out to be confusing because how can you tell who a person is if they don't have a picture ID? And if you require a photo ID, you then seem to require it as a citizen. Many people don't have photos if they don't drive anymore. And not everyone has a passport.

What is the solution?

Borg

[jdobbin]

What is the solution?

It depends on whether you think there is a problem.

Requiring the address that the government wanted almost removed thousands of rural and often Conservative voters. That was an eye opener for the Tories.

To require photo ID to vote would cost millions for the right to vote. Imagine being 85 years old and not having or needing a passport and not having a driver's licence. Now the government tells you that you have no vote.

A Voter's card should be sufficient along with some other indication of where you live.

[Borg]

It depends on whether you think there is a problem.

Requiring the address that the government wanted almost removed thousands of rural and often Conservative voters. That was an eye opener for the Tories.

To require photo ID to vote would cost millions for the right to vote. Imagine being 85 years old and not having or needing a passport and not having a driver's licence. Now the government tells you that you have no vote.

A Voter's card should be sufficient along with some other indication of where you live.

Do you think there is a problem

Borg

[jdobbin]

Do you think there is a problem

I think all people should have a voter's card or prove of residency and ID. I don't think people should have to have photo ID unless the government is prepared to pay millions for it.

[Moonbox]

I get what they were trying to do, but I think the costs outweigh the benefits. I don't think the tiny number of veiled fraudsters is really worth the headache and the money needed to prevent them.

[Borg]

As a woman - What if I take my neighbours ID and vote in her place after I voted myself?

Borg

[Borg]

I think all people should have a voter's card or prove of residency and ID. I don't think people should have to have photo ID unless the government is prepared to pay millions for it.

Does the government pay for photo ID for passports and a drivers licence?

Borg

Edited June 26, 2009 by Borg

[jdobbin]

I get what they were trying to do, but I think the costs outweigh the benefits. I don't think the tiny number of veiled fraudsters is really worth the headache and the money needed to prevent them.

I think that is exactly what hit the government in the forehead. It was a "D'oh!" moment.

I could care less if someone voted with a mask and his voter's card with his ID. It is no different than the 85 year old with no photo ID.

I can't imagine voter fraud of people in disguise is widespread, can you?

Edited June 26, 2009 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

Does the government pay for photo ID for passports and a drivers licence?

Not for anyone that I know of. Maybe a diplomatic passport but in general, no.

The costs of carrying out what the Tories wanted were pretty high and I'm not convinced that fraud was so much of a problem.

I have no problems people submitting to photos for driving and international travel but for voting?

[Borg]

So fraud is not important? Just because it is low we should ignore it?

Borg

[Borg]

Have elections ever been decided by one vote?

Borg

[Borg]

Not for anyone that I know of. Maybe a diplomatic passport but in general, no.

The costs of carrying out what the Tories wanted were pretty high and I'm not convinced that fraud was so much of a problem.

I have no problems people submitting to photos for driving and international travel but for voting?

So why not make the voter buy the card?

Borg

[Smallc]

Doesn't matter:

3. Every citizen of Canada has the right to vote in an election of members of the House of Commons or of a legislative assembly and to be qualified for membership therein.

[jdobbin]

So why not make the voter buy the card?

I think the Tories contemplated that. I assume that a central registry would be needed. I think the Tories would run from any registry.

[Borg]

Doesn't matter:

3. Every citizen of Canada has the right to vote in an election of members of the House of Commons or of a legislative assembly and to be qualified for membership therein.

How do we know it is a citizen that is voting

Borg

[Smallc]

We still don't know if the uncover their face...or even if they show photo ID.

[jdobbin]

Have elections ever been decided by one vote?

Certainly. But do you think there is enough fraud because there is no photo ID to merit the millions spent?

[Borg]

We still don't know if the uncover their face...or even if they show photo ID.

Is there no ID that indicates citizen

Borg

[Borg]

Certainly.

So what if the person votes 5 times with different ID

Borg

[Smallc]

Is there no ID that indicates citizen

So now everyone has to get a passport or an enhanced ID card?

[Keepitsimple]

It's too bad and I don't know what the answer is - common sense says that people who want to come to Canada should be told that we respect your religion but our Canadian Culture and society rules say that once in a while, you may have to actually show your face.....if you can't agree to that, try another country. And I'm all for doing that - and if necessary, grandfathering the right of people who are already here to keep their face hidden. That would at least solve the problem going forward and I think would be accepted by a huge majority of Canadians. But we're so politically correct - tripping over each other and afraid to be criticized...that we never take any action.

[GostHacked]

Does this mean I can vote witha bag over my head? Somehow I don't that would be allowed.

When I vote, they ask for my voter registration and ID. (license ect).. well the last time I voted that is how it happened.

[WIP]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...0626?hub=Canada

Think the Tories have finally admitted that they made this an issue when it really wasn't one.

Did you ever ask yourself what the purpose of veils and restrictive clothing are in the first place? In Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and much of the Persian Gulf, where temperatures can hit 120 degrees, women are still expected to move about shrouded in all black garments. This garb is a portable prison that women are expected to carry with them on those rare occasions when they are moving about in public.

So, here in Canada, and other non-Muslim nations, restrictive religious laws cannot be enforced by government and roving bands of religious police -- so the only coercion available is religious and cultural -- which is a powerful enough force considering that many are first generation immigrants who may not even speak English or know anything about their new home, outside of their closed circle of family relations.

So, why can't our leaders grow a pair (like Sarkozy) and start demanding that new Canadians observe the same rights and values that are supposed to be our common values?

The various rules on pictures, addresses and like threatened to disenfranchise many of their own voters who didn't have photo ID and who had rural addresses that were P.O. Boxes.

The veil issue turned out to be confusing because how can you tell who a person is if they don't have a picture ID? And if you require a photo ID, you then seem to require it as a citizen. Many people don't have photos if they don't drive anymore. And not everyone has a passport.

I think the veiling issue touches a little deeper than the ability to determine positive I.D.

[Moonbox]

Doesn't matter:

3. Every citizen of Canada has the right to vote in an election of members of the House of Commons or of a legislative assembly and to be qualified for membership therein.

That's fine smallc. Nobody is arguing that. What people are arguing is that we shouldn't have to make exceptions to practical election laws that deter fraud so as to appease a draconic relgious law spawned half a world away over a millenia ago.

Voting is a right in Canada, but citizenship is a privilege.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Moonbox