DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Israel lived within the borders prescribed by 181 until attacked by six Arab countries who didn't even give Resolution 181 a second thought, bent on killing every last one of them (women and children included). With the immediate death of their civilization and people at stake, they fought back, and continue to hold that ground until there is a serious government in place with a serious intent to make peace with them. I doubt that any resolution they have violated compares remotely to having six nations on your doorstep with the self described intent of exterminating you and your people. Israel was fortunate to have in the ranks of Haganah and Palmach numerous veterens of WW2 who had good training abilities. This provided a fairly consistant force unit-wise. Arab forces ranged from elite units like the Arab Legion to the common goat-herder with a WW1 era rifle. The 1948 War was perhaps one of the best examples of an inferior force (Jews) using superior tactics to defeat a foe on multiple fronts as well behind their own lines. Back in my wargaming days, I had one on the 48 War which was one of the best scraps a fellow could have on a table-top. Both sides had plenty of opportunites to go on the offensive with plenty of reinforcements arriving for both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Israel was fortunate to have in the ranks of Haganah and Palmach numerous veterens of WW2 who had good training abilities. This provided a fairly consistant force unit-wise. Arab forces ranged from elite units like the Arab Legion to the common goat-herder with a WW1 era rifle.The 1948 War was perhaps one of the best examples of an inferior force (Jews) using superior tactics to defeat a foe on multiple fronts as well behind their own lines. Back in my wargaming days, I had one on the 48 War which was one of the best scraps a fellow could have on a table-top. Both sides had plenty of opportunites to go on the offensive with plenty of reinforcements arriving for both sides. And don't forget, they had right on their side as they were the ones who had adhered to Resolution 181 while the Arabs did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 it's too bad that the government has nothing to do with that organization. that's a non-governmental organization and there are many other amazing israeli organizations and israeli people. you'd be surprised how many israelis are against their government's policies and actions towards the palestinians.here are some more: http://www.btselem.org http://www.seruv.org.il/english/default.asp http://www.gisha.org/ http://www.batshalom.org http://www.adalah.org/eng/index.php http://www.gush-shalom.org http://www.icahd.org http://www.machsomwatch.org http://www.phr.org.il/phr/ http://rhr.israel.net http://refusersolidarity.org www.whoprofits.org http://www.yesh-din.org/site/index.php?pag...lang=en&id= http://www.yeshgvul.org/index_e.asp it's too bad the israeli government is controlled by religious zealots and zionists who hardly ever see eye to eye with these organizations. On the other side,are there a lot of Palestinian organizations that openly oppose violence against Israelis?Is there a single one?Is it possible for any Palestinian to want peace without violence and not face death from his/her own people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 And don't forget, they had right on their side as they were the ones who had adhered to Resolution 181 while the Arabs did not. Well that brings us back to der Gross Mufti. He represented early pan-Arabism as well as a few other 'isms'. He's quite remarkable in that he was able to gather so many new Arab states to his side. A particularly able fellow in many areas. He was also head of the powerful al-Husseini clan which knew no borders in the area, existing throughout the region. Most pro-Hamas members either must be ignorant of his actions, in denial, or, in support...I have to assume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 On the other side,are there a lot of Palestinian organizations that openly oppose violence against Israelis?Is there a single one?Is it possible for any Palestinian to want peace without violence and not face death from his/her own people? It's a culture of death in Gaza. Less so in the WB. As mentioned, these folks were abandoned by their former countries Egypt and Jordan. While under these two's former control, there was no creation of Palestine or anything like that. Rather, these two zones (Gaza, WB) were great places to cram troops into as they stuck into Israel like knives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 On the other side,are there a lot of Palestinian organizations that openly oppose violence against Israelis?Is there a single one?Is it possible for any Palestinian to want peace without violence and not face death from his/her own people? I actually looked and could not find. I did find this interesting essay though; Where are the Palestinian peace activists? Extreme Israeli leftist peace activists demanded on Saturday that the government demolish the grave of a Jewish resident of Hebron who gunned down 29 "Palestinians" at the cave where Israel's patriarchs are buried in 1994.The call came after scuffles broke out between a group of fellow Hebron residents who had gathered in memory of the killer and police officers who were on hand to arrest anyone that displayed support for individuals or groups deemed to be "Jewish terrorists." Now, without getting into a debate over the actions of Baruch Goldstein, I want to point out the glaring contrasts between Israeli and "Palestinian" societies and their reaction to those in their midsts who take the lives of unarmed civilians on the other side. When a few Jews gathered at the weekend to remember Goldstein, Israeli police showed up in force to make sure no one even whispered support for what he did. When a "Palestinian" is killed in the process of murdering Israeli Jews, the residents of his town hold a massive street parade en route to his funeral that is usually sanctioned and protected by the Palestinian Authority police. The event is typically characterized by chants of support for the slaughter of Jews. No one is arrested for making such virulent calls. Furthermore, despite the fact that Saturday's memorial ceremony was so small and insignificant, it was distasteful enough for Israel's "Peace Now" to loudly issue a pubic appeal for the destruction of Goldstein's grave. Now I am wondering, if the "Palestinians" are truly as interested in peace as the Israelis, where are the "Palestinian" peace activists demanding not only that their own militants cease their violent actions, but insisting on harsh official treatment of those who celebrate the murder of Israeli Jews? It is time that we demand the world see this contrast: In one society, those deemed terrorists are vigorously persecuted, while in the other, murderers of men, women and children are gloriously celebrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted July 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 On the other side,are there a lot of Palestinian organizations that openly oppose violence against Israelis?Is there a single one?Is it possible for any Palestinian to want peace without violence and not face death from his/her own people? any logical and rational person would not equate the treatment of the palestinians to the treatment of the israelis. some try. some even try to say that the israelis are suffering more than palestinians, but then again, reality is a good slap in the face for these people. i'm sure palestinians would speak out in opposition if the palestinian government/leaders were creating and expanding palestinian settlements on someone's land or were demolishing someone's home on their own land or were attacking another city and killing over 1000 people in less than a month with most of them civilians or if the palestinian government leaders did not allow self-determination of a group of people on their own land. but those things are not happening so please don't be ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 i'm sure palestinians would speak out in opposition if the palestinian government/leaders were creating and expanding palestinian settlements on someone's land or were demolishing someone's home on their own land or were attacking another city and killing over 1000 people in less than a month with most of them civilians or if the palestinian government leaders did not allow self-determination of a group of people on their own land. but those things are not happening so please don't be ridiculous. That's pretty weak in light of the fact that; The elected government of Gaza has the destruction of Israel and subsequent slaughter of it's people as it's cornerstone policy; They deliberately kill Israeli women and children rather than attack military targets rather than accidentally harm women and children who are being used as human shields as part of the Hamas military strategy; Hamas does not wish to make a settlement on Israeli land, they wish to kill every Jew and take ALL of the land, and; Celebrate those who die while killing Israeli women and children,even elevating them to the status of heroes. So, if Palestinians wish peace, where is the peaceful web sites espousing cooperation, spirit of negotiation, even some culpability (as they have yet to say they are sorry about not accepting Resolution 181 and instead, attempting to exterminate every last Jew) or, just saying the past is the past and let's move on, forgiving the sins of Israel and trying to work on i? Where Dub? You have no problem finding Israeli sites so let's see the peace initiatives from the Palestinian side. Crickets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted July 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) "i am a religious woman and i believe god gave it to us" Edited July 2, 2009 by dub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 "i am a religious woman and i believe god gave it to us" Yep. No Palestinian peace sites available. Just as I thought. Crickets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted July 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Yep. No Palestinian peace sites available. Just as I thought.Crickets. this point has already been responded to. any logical and rational person would not equate the treatment of the palestinians to the treatment of the israelis. some try. some even try to say that the israelis are suffering more than palestinians, but then again, reality is a good slap in the face for these people. i'm sure palestinians would speak out in opposition if the palestinian government/leaders were creating and expanding palestinian settlements on someone's land or were demolishing someone's home on their own land or were attacking another city and killing over 1000 people in less than a month with most of them civilians or if the palestinian government leaders did not allow self-determination of a group of people on their own land. but those things are not happening so please don't be ridiculous. however, you can unleash your spaces and crickets all you want, just like you have unleashed your selective view on United Nation's role an authority in this issue. i told you. i'm not interested in wasting my time chit chatting with extremists like you who aren't here to have a debate based on facts but to spread selective information, half-truths and even lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 this point has already been responded to.any logical and rational person would not equate the treatment of the palestinians to the treatment of the israelis. some try. some even try to say that the israelis are suffering more than palestinians, but then again, reality is a good slap in the face for these people. i'm sure palestinians would speak out in opposition if the palestinian government/leaders were creating and expanding palestinian settlements on someone's land or were demolishing someone's home on their own land or were attacking another city and killing over 1000 people in less than a month with most of them civilians or if the palestinian government leaders did not allow self-determination of a group of people on their own land. but those things are not happening so please don't be ridiculous. however, you can unleash your spaces and crickets all you want, just like you have unleashed your selective view on United Nation's role an authority in this issue. My selective view on the UN? You were the one who brought up the falsehood of Israel not adhering to 181 when in fact, it was the Palestinians who did not and never even entertained the idea, even going so far as to attempt to kill every last Jew be it man woman or child. You proudly provided a list of Israeli sites that have peace as their centerpiece and, were then asked to produce the same with Palestinians who believe the same and came up empty handed. Yes, crickets is about all the morons who simply expouse hate towards Israel have when asked to provide any semblance of willingness to live in peace with Israel. i told you. i'm not interested in wasting my time chit chatting with extremists like you who aren't here to have a debate based on facts but to spread selective information, half-truths and even lies. An extremist? Tell me Dub, have I ever said anything good about Israel? Have I? I You hate it don't you? I never have. I just don't take your one sided hatred and agree. This to you is an extremist for crying out loud! So, now that you have personally insulted me by saying I have lied, back it up or be known as a slanderer. Where have I lied Dub? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) I couldn't find any dedicated Palestinian peace sites, either. I'm sure ONE must exist. While looking I found this...warning graphic. Fatah releases video of Hamas Torture. http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_June2009.htm#b180609 It's pretty nasty... Edited July 2, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 I couldn't find any dedicated Palestinian peace sites, either. I'm sure ONE must exist. Unless you are an extremist, you don't have to look DOP. It's pretty nasty... I just couldn't look. Some poor devil was probably being kept in a cold cell with a caterpillar or worse, being ask questions harshly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Unless you are an extremist, you don't have to look DOP.I just couldn't look. Some poor devil was probably being kept in a cold cell with a caterpillar or worse, being ask questions harshly. lol...no. It made me squirm, though... These Hamas fellows are bad ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted July 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 you guys should let go of your selfishness and nationalism which has brought nothing but misery and join this group: http://www.jewsforajustpeace.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted July 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 instead of making excuses and condoning this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 you guys should let go of your selfishness and nationalism which has brought nothing but misery and join this group: http://www.jewsforajustpeace.com/ I'm not Jewish. Nor Christian, nor Muslim, nor...etc. lol...no. It made me squirm, though... These Hamas fellows are bad ass. So what of your heroic freedom fighters now, duk? http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_June2009.htm#b180609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted July 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 I'm not Jewish. maybe not 'religiously'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 maybe not 'religiously'. Nope. Just old enough to remember the Arab-Israeli Wars and who the Mufti and Arafat were. Your historical omissions might work with the young and naive. But, it won't work with those that lived through the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 i told you. i'm not interested in wasting my time chit chatting with extremists like you who aren't here to have a debate based on facts but to spread selective information, half-truths and even lies.No one is forcing you to post on a board whose membership is a cross-section of one of the world's great democracies, Canada. Canada is a Western democracy that, in recent years, has recognized and commenced diplomatic relations with Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted July 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 No one is forcing you to post on a board whose membership is a cross-section of one of the world's great democracies, Canada. Canada is a Western democracy that, in recent years, has recognized and commenced diplomatic relations with Israel. canada also recognizes that the israeli settlements are illegal and 1967 border drawn up by the UN. both of which israel does not recognize. do you support canada's official stance or israel's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) canada also recognizes that the israeli settlements are illegal and 1967 border drawn up by the UN. both of which israel does not recognize.do you support canada's official stance or israel's? In general, Israel's. If the Palestinians commenced sincere negotiations, starting with recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, I'd probably switch to Canada's position, however. I am not married to the idea of Jewish settlements existing in the midst of hostile, difficult to defend regions. Edited July 2, 2009 by jbg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 In general, Israel's. If the Palestinians commenced sincere negotiations, starting with recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, I'd probably switch to Canada's position, however. I am not married to the idea of Jewish settlements existing in the midst of hostile, difficult to defend regions. Wouldn't be difficult to defend if the IDF actually defended them. I think Israel should start applying some pressure on the Palestinians to achieve peace earlier rather than later. Expand the settlements at a slow but steady rate, but offer to stop the moment that the Palestinians are ready to negotiate in good faith and with meaningful authority over their own people. The longer they delay, the less land will be left available for the Palestinian state. With every passing year meaning the permanent loss of a few more square kilometers of their eventual state, perhaps the Palestinians would smarten up and stop stalling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted July 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Wouldn't be difficult to defend if the IDF actually defended them. I think Israel should start applying some pressure on the Palestinians to achieve peace earlier rather than later. Expand the settlements at a slow but steady rate, but offer to stop the moment that the Palestinians are ready to negotiate in good faith and with meaningful authority over their own people. The longer they delay, the less land will be left available for the Palestinian state. With every passing year meaning the permanent loss of a few more square kilometers of their eventual state, perhaps the Palestinians would smarten up and stop stalling. it's kind of you to recommend expanding the settlements at a slow rate but the settlements are illegal. not sure why you're recommending breaking international law at a slow rate. in 1988, palestinians officially recognized israel and the UN's resolution and israel did nothing in return. what steps has israel taken? before you say 'gaza', i will have to tell you that despite the expensive settlements that left gaza, the illegal settlements have actually annexed more land in the west bank during that time. oh and lol @ the palestinians stalling. that was definitely the howler of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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