Central Banks

[bush_cheney2004]

The student obeys the teacher. It is a subordinate position whether or not the ability to choose the instructor is available or not. The relationship is the same, a constant.

....then you are the "grasshopper"? China is painstakenly copying the path that America has already taken.

There is no doubt the USA can dish it out. There never was, in my mind. To be fair, the US can throw one hell of a punch, but it has developed a glass jaw in the manner of finances. You are now experiencing the reality of being on the other side of the fence. YOu think you retain control but it is an illusion. This is how the US has played the game from the second world war to this day, by the tables are now reversed.

I don't think you understand.....the USA is the game....for now. If my countrymen do not resume their wicked ways with conspicuous consumption on credit, it won't matter what the hell everyone else does. No other country than Canada represents this dynamic more. In essence, you are glued to my nation's soap opera because you do not have a Plan B.

Your opponents have read your play book. They know every step you can and will take, they are well prepared. The US is now the bargain basement for investments. That will not change anytime soon because of the nature of your society.

This is what Japan thought too in the 1980's.....they lost their ass and still have not fully recovered.

Hey BC, that is Canada Day, we haven't used the other term in quite some time. You are a little out of date, not surprising for you Americans. Open a book or something and perhaps see if you can catch up on current events.

Nope...you took the bait just as I expected you to do. Happy Dominion Day is a not so subtle reminder of where Canada was and still is in many ways. Your Constitution and many government elements still reflects the status of a "dominion". The rebel Americans got it right the first time...."Independence Day".

Have I ever said I could change the USA? I have said, and do truly mean that I have deep concern for your nation. I have said that somethings need to change for your own benefit, but I have never said that those changes should be forced upon you from the outside.

Your concern is irrelevant and misplaced save for your own selfish reasons (see above). Obviously I can't relate to a mindset or neurosis of fear / dependence. However, I am smart enough to know that this does not apply to all or even a majority of Canadians.

It remains my hope that you folks take care and take advantage of the opportunities that present themselves from time to time. At the present rate, you folks will be out of money very soon. By that I mean your credit or ability to get the money you need to pay your debts with more borrowed money will soon be out of your reach. Look what happened to Argentina, that reality is one that I would hope you can avoid.

Even if that were to happen, do you find Argentina to be a bad place? What about Iceland....they are broke. Do you not remember the bleak outlook for Canada only decades ago? Why must America succeed on your terms....why isn't it allowed to fail or succeed on its own terms? Where is your Plan B?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

....then you are the "grasshopper"? China is painstakenly copying the path that America has already taken.

Not I, and definitely not "Master". With respect to China we agree, I have already said so. However, you need to admit that role reversal is eminent.

I don't think you understand.....the USA is the game....for now. If my countrymen do not resume their wicked ways with conspicuous consumption on credit, it won't matter what the hell everyone else does. No other country than Canada represents this dynamic more. In essence, you are glued to my nation's soap opera because you do not have a Plan B.

The USA is NOT the game, it is a losing proposition. This is what you cannot see, it is the forest for the tree syndrome you are stuck in with your myopic vision. There are still some good investments, many in fact to be found within the USA, but the days are in fact numbered. Simple arithmetic proves this.

This is what Japan thought too in the 1980's.....they lost their ass and still have not fully recovered.

They went up against varsity and got their clocks cleaned, that is all true. But that was in the day my friend and those days are over.

Nope...you took the bait just as I expected you to do. Happy Dominion Day is a not so subtle reminder of where Canada was and still is in many ways. Your Constitution and many government elements still reflects the status of a "dominion". The rebel Americans got it right the first time...."Independence Day".

I think not BC. That was a jab, that is what it was and that was what was returned to you. With all due respect BC, I am not exactly an ardent proponent of the current system of government within Canada. I am in fact an Alberta Separatist. In have no love for left leaning nanny states. The current Constitution of Canada took away the right to own property and the "notwithstanding clause" was utilized by Quebec, who were not signatories to the document in question, and forced "Bill 101" down the throats of citizens within that province forcing the French language upon them. To date the Federal Government has done nothing about it. They have no spine whatsoever. On a side note I think that your "Declaration of Independence" is likely the most relevant political document written to date. Your Constitution is not as good as that other document but is considerably superior to our own.

Your concern is irrelevant and misplaced save for your own selfish reasons (see above). Obviously I can't relate to a mindset or neurosis of fear / dependence. However, I am smart enough to know that this does not apply to all or even a majority of Canadians.

My concern is my own affair and quite literally none of your business. Considering your concern for the welfare of your own fellow citizens I consider your opinion in this regard as useful as used toilet paper. I think you would be shocked to actually find out what most Canadians really thought.

Even if that were to happen, do you find Argentina to be a bad place? What about Iceland....they are broke. Do you not remember the bleak outlook for Canada only decades ago? Why must America succeed on your terms....why isn't it allowed to fail or succeed on its own terms? Where is your Plan B?

America needs to succeed on your own terms, on this we do agree. I am not required to be satisfied with anything in your nation as I am not a citizen. I am however able to speak freely on my own behalf and say as I please about whatever I damned well please to anyone I choose provided I do so within the law.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not I, and definitely not "Master". With respect to China we agree, I have already said so. However, you need to admit that role reversal is eminent.

Alas....another prediction of Americas pending demise.....welcome to a crowded club. As I have stated numerous times, 'tis better to have been a superpower and lost than never to have been one at all. Life isn't so bad in Canada, is it?

The USA is NOT the game, it is a losing proposition. This is what you cannot see, it is the forest for the tree syndrome you are stuck in with your myopic vision. There are still some good investments, many in fact to be found within the USA, but the days are in fact numbered. Simple arithmetic proves this.

Your equations of doom have not impacted Japan or France yet....what makes you think you are right about the USA?

They went up against varsity and got their clocks cleaned, that is all true. But that was in the day my friend and those days are over.

What days are over? Do you have any idea how silly such a piss ant declaration looks? Your own province is scrambling to stay afloat even as we spar.....

I think not BC. That was a jab, that is what it was and that was what was returned to you. With all due respect BC, I am not exactly an ardent proponent of the current system of government within Canada. I am in fact an Alberta Separatist. In have no love for left leaning nanny states.

Jab...bait...all the same to me. I am keen to push such hot buttons when it suits my purpose. Call it Canada Day if you wish....."dominion" remains on the paperwork.

The current Constitution of Canada took away the right to own property and the "notwithstanding clause" was utilized by Quebec, who were not signatories to the document in question, and forced "Bill 101" down the throats of citizens within that province forcing the French language upon them. To date the Federal Government has done nothing about it. They have no spine whatsoever.

Sounds interesting....but you will not do anything about it either. That's one of the differneces between Canada and the USA. Spill some blood...if you dare.

On a side note I think that your "Declaration of Independence" is likely the most relevant political document written to date. Your Constitution is not as good as that other document but is considerably superior to our own.

Such documents reflect an uncompromising American spirit, and were derived under circumstances completely different than Canada's. It's not our fault that close proximity in time and place leads to such comparisons and your dissatisfaction. I make no apologies for my America.

My concern is my own affair and quite literally none of your business. Considering your concern for the welfare of your own fellow citizens I consider your opinion in this regard as useful as used toilet paper. I think you would be shocked to actually find out what most Canadians really thought.

If this forum is any bit of a cross section for Canadian thoughts on the matter, I am quite well informed. It is clear to me that many (but no all) are trapped in a neurotic existence that cannot be defined without reference to America as a foil. I guess in the end I am left to wonder what happens to such poor souls if America ceases to exist?

America needs to succeed on your own terms, on this we do agree. I am not required to be satisfied with anything in your nation as I am not a citizen. I am however able to speak freely on my own behalf and say as I please about whatever I damned well please to anyone I choose provided I do so within the law.

Well good for you! Nobody is denying you that opportunity, but I am asking you again why it is so important that America "change its ways" or suffer your version of the future. What does America owe you?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Alas....another prediction of Americas pending demise.....welcome to a crowded club. As I have stated numerous times, 'tis better to have been a superpower and lost than never to have been one at all. Life isn't so bad in Canada, is it?

Life in Canada is indeed good. The politics are bad, the representatives suck, the taxes are high, but aside form that things are pretty darned fine! Nice to hear you admit that your empire has been lost though.

Your equations of doom have not impacted Japan or France yet....what makes you think you are right about the USA?

In France...http://www.rttnews.com/ArticleView.aspx?Id=984104&Category=Economic%20News

The drop in manufacturing activity is forecast to gradually slow down and stabilize in the fourth quarter, as the business climate starts improving. Activity is forecast to fall by a new high of 15.7% in 2009, after declining 1.8% last year. Investments by firms is to contract sharply by 3.2% and 2.7%, respectively in the first two quarters, but the pace of decline will slacken in the second half of the year. In the third and fourth quarters, investments were likely to fall 2.3% and 1.3% respectively due to an improvement in financing conditions and less negative business prospects.

In line with falling world demand for French products, exports are expected to fall by 3.8% in the second quarter. In the third quarter, the exports are forecast to decline 1.8% and then drop 0.8% over the next three months. For the year, exports are expected to slip 13.5%.

In Japan...http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8058708.stm

Japan's economy during the first three months of 2009 shrank at its quickest pace since records began, as exports slumped, officials figures have shown. Output in the world's second largest economy contracted by 4% during the period, or by 15.2% on an annual basis. Japan's economy, which depends heavily on exports, has been hit hard by the global downturn. But economists predict a modest growth in the coming months, after a small rise in production in March. The figures from the Cabinet Office show that this is the fourth quarterly fall in gross domestic product (GDP) in a row, after a 3.8% contraction between October and December 2008.

'Weakness spreading'

The BBC's Roland Buerk in Tokyo says people around the world are buying fewer of the cars and electronic gadgets that Japan is renowned for. In the first quarter of this year, Japanese exports declined by 26%. "Weakness in the corporate sector is gradually spreading to households," Prime Minister Taro Aso said during a budget hearing to Parliament. "This is a very serious situation, so we need to respond appropriately." Investment in factories and equipment dropped by 10.4% in the first quarter, a sign that firms are reducing their outlay. Consumer spending fell by 1.1% during the same period. "The savings rate has gone up and that has worsened the severity of the recession," said Richard Jerram, head economist at Macquarie Securities in Tokyo. "It seems the public has basically panicked about job security to an an extent that hasn't happened in previous cycles," he added. The latest contraction is the biggest since records began in 1955.

I think that perhaps things are not so rosey over there in France or Japan.

What days are over? Do you have any idea how silly such a piss ant declaration looks? Your own province is scrambling to stay afloat even as we spar.....

Do you realize the ramifications of delusional arrogance? Alberta struggling to stay afloat? Really, that is news to me. BC, until this last budget we were in the black with surplus incomes. We have no provincial debt . How is your state doing debt wise? They are building new roads, freeways, hospitals and schools all over the place in our big cities. Your are either simply misinformed or are foolishly ignorant of the reality of Alberta.

Jab...bait...all the same to me. I am keen to push such hot buttons when it suits my purpose. Call it Canada Day if you wish....."dominion" remains on the paperwork.

I did call it what I wished and corrected you accordingly. To use your own words you were baiting.........

Sounds interesting....but you will not do anything about it either. That's one of the differneces between Canada and the USA. Spill some blood...if you dare.

If you read our Constitution then you would understand the difficulties we have in making changes to it. Not a very user friendly document, amendments are a bitch to pull off. There is the real difference between us BC, I will not kill a fellow citizen of ideology.

Such documents reflect an uncompromising American spirit, and were derived under circumstances completely different than Canada's. It's not our fault that close proximity in time and place leads to such comparisons and your dissatisfaction. I make no apologies for my America.

You need not apology for either yourself or your nation to me. Its simply isn't required.

If this forum is any bit of a cross section for Canadian thoughts on the matter, I am quite well informed. It is clear to me that many (but no all) are trapped in a neurotic existence that cannot be defined without reference to America as a foil. I guess in the end I am left to wonder what happens to such poor souls if America ceases to exist?

It is a very small cross section of the public BC, and should not be used as an accurate gauge of public opinion at all. I would not say that "many""are trapped in a neurotic existence at all. My fellow citizens simply tend to mind their own business and not attempt to force their views on people in general. We are a very tolerant society in truth. What is clear to you is of little concern to us. I would venture to say that there are more Canadians with reasonable knowledge of America than Americans with reasonable knowledge of Canada. You are the perfect example of that. In the end you will likely always be left wondering. If America does cease to exist it will take a lot of people with it, as many have misplaced their faith in trust in your society.

Well good for you! Nobody is denying you that opportunity, but I am asking you again why it is so important that America "change its ways" or suffer your version of the future. What does America owe you?

BC America owes me nothing at all. America need not change at all if that is the wishes of your citizens for it is up to them to make that judgment and nobody else. Your current President ran on a platform of change did he not? He was elected by a majority of your citizens that supported the changes he desires. That would logically lead to the reality of a statement that America needs, wants and desires changes now doesn't it?

[bush_cheney2004]

Life in Canada is indeed good. The politics are bad, the representatives suck, the taxes are high, but aside form that things are pretty darned fine! Nice to hear you admit that your empire has been lost though.

Well, lost empires are something Canada would certainly know much about. God Save the Queen and all that jazz.

I think that perhaps things are not so rosey over there in France or Japan.

Oh great, so now you are an expert on the demise of these nations as well. In your expert analysis, is any nation "getting it right"? Why does it matter?

Do you realize the ramifications of delusional arrogance? Alberta struggling to stay afloat? Really, that is news to me. BC, until this last budget we were in the black with surplus incomes. We have no provincial debt . How is your state doing debt wise? They are building new roads, freeways, hospitals and schools all over the place in our big cities. Your are either simply misinformed or are foolishly ignorant of the reality of Alberta.

My state just balanced its budget....it has to by law...no deficits allowed.

Call me when Canada manages to finish that inter-provincial highway from coast-to-coast. Oh, and it was Americans that built the AlCan Highway IIRC....and capital for oil production in Alberta. Hell, no wonder you guys are running scared at the prospect of America folding!

I did call it what I wished and corrected you accordingly. To use your own words you were baiting.........

Correct...Happy Dominion Day....1982 wasn't that long ago.

If you read our Constitution then you would understand the difficulties we have in making changes to it. Not a very user friendly document, amendments are a bitch to pull off. There is the real difference between us BC, I will not kill a fellow citizen of ideology.

That's fine, but don't expect America to behave any differently than it has in the past. Carolyn Parrish was correct, and we wouldn't have it any other way. Arrogance is not illegal.

You need not apology for either yourself or your nation to me. Its simply isn't required.

No shit?

It is a very small cross section of the public BC, and should not be used as an accurate gauge of public opinion at all. I would not say that "many""are trapped in a neurotic existence at all. My fellow citizens simply tend to mind their own business and not attempt to force their views on people in general. We are a very tolerant society in truth.

Except when it comes to Americans it would seem.....

What is clear to you is of little concern to us. I would venture to say that there are more Canadians with reasonable knowledge of America than Americans with reasonable knowledge of Canada. You are the perfect example of that. In the end you will likely always be left wondering. If America does cease to exist it will take a lot of people with it, as many have misplaced their faith in trust in your society.

Then they are fools indeed. Knowledge of America is a poor substitute for a national identity.

BC America owes me nothing at all. America need not change at all if that is the wishes of your citizens for it is up to them to make that judgment and nobody else. Your current President ran on a platform of change did he not? He was elected by a majority of your citizens that supported the changes he desires. That would logically lead to the reality of a statement that America needs, wants and desires changes now doesn't it?

Of course not....see, you don't know as much as you think. It simply means that another politician has won an election....another American politician. Christ, your own nation is now importing the same thing from the USA.

How pathetic.....

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Well, lost empires are something Canada would certainly know much about. God Save the Queen and all that jazz.

Canada never had an empire, but that thought may give you some comfort. Knowing that we burned down your White House and captured a couple of your cities, after sinking one of your warships in the one engagement we had with you. It wasn't an empire that beat you, just a little colonial backwater.

Oh great, so now you are an expert on the demise of these nations as well. In your expert analysis, is any nation "getting it right"? Why does it matter?

Dude, you brought it up and I had to correct you. I think the Swiss are doing it right if you must know. It matters because it is all about the citizens and how their nation treats them.

My state just balanced its budget....it has to by law...no deficits allowed.

Alberta had a law like that once, we changed it recently. How much debt does your state carry and how much of your taxes are required to cover that debt?

Call me when Canada manages to finish that inter-provincial highway from coast-to-coast. Oh, and it was Americans that built the AlCan Highway IIRC....and capital for oil production in Alberta. Hell, no wonder you guys are running scared at the prospect of America folding!

The 7821 km Trans-Canada Hwy was formally opened at ROGERS PASS on 30 July 1962., whats you number? Interestingly I live 14 Kms off of the Alaskan Hiway and drive down it every time I go to work. Yes you folks do know a good investment when you see one in terms of investing in Alberta. I would not go with running scared, but there are a lot of Albertans concerned with your fate. We actually do care what happens to you folks.

Correct...Happy Dominion Day....1982 wasn't that long ago.

1982 only repatriated the document to Canada. That was the time we lost our property right, not something to celebrate.

That's fine, but don't expect America to behave any differently than it has in the past. Carolyn Parrish was correct, and we wouldn't have it any other way. Arrogance is not illegal.

She is an idiot, and lucky for you arrogance is not against the law.

No shit?

Not at all.

Except when it comes to Americans it would seem.....

We are very tolerant to you folks. You can certainly do as you please.

Then they are fools indeed. Knowledge of America is a poor substitute for a national identity.

Canada has a very distinct national identity. We are respected around the world, unlike your own nation.

Of course not....see, you don't know as much as you think. It simply means that another politician has won an election....another American politician. Christ, your own nation is now importing the same thing from the USA.

Obama is adding debt to a far greater extent than anybody else has down there.

How pathetic.....

That is a good description of your rantings.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada never had an empire, but that thought may give you some comfort. Knowing that we burned down your White House and captured a couple of your cities, after sinking one of your warships in the one engagement we had with you. It wasn't an empire that beat you, just a little colonial backwater.

Excellent example of wanting to have it both ways.....when it suits you, Canada was/is part of the former British Empire. No wonder you have an identity crisis.

Alberta had a law like that once, we changed it recently. How much debt does your state carry and how much of your taxes are required to cover that debt?

General obligation and revenue bonds run at about $4.5 billion and debt service is about 15% per annum. Not going broke anytime soon.

The 7821 km Trans-Canada Hwy was formally opened at ROGERS PASS on 30 July 1962., whats you number?

It wasn't completed until 1971, and to this day is not fully upgraded a national construction standard.

Interestingly I live 14 Kms off of the Alaskan Hiway and drive down it every time I go to work. Yes you folks do know a good investment when you see one in terms of investing in Alberta. I would not go with running scared, but there are a lot of Albertans concerned with your fate. We actually do care what happens to you folks.

I can't think of any US highways built by Alberta.

1982 only repatriated the document to Canada. That was the time we lost our property right, not something to celebrate.

Sounds like a personal issue...Vive el Alberta!

She is an idiot, and lucky for you arrogance is not against the law.

It has nothing to do with luck.

We are very tolerant to you folks. You can certainly do as you please.

You don't have much choice it would seem.

Canada has a very distinct national identity. We are respected around the world, unlike your own nation.

Right...you are not Americans...very distinct.

Obama is adding debt to a far greater extent than anybody else has down there.

He's an American. You just keep watching for his next move....on tar sands bitumen.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

What do you think Obama will say about the oilsands?

[bush_cheney2004]

What do you think Obama will say about the oilsands?

Ha...that sure changed your tune!

He has already said plenty.....look it up.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The last I heard was this;

http://www.climaticoanalysis.org/post/secu...%E2%80%99s-oil/

President Obama, in close discussions with Energy Secretary Stephen Chu and Alberta Premier Ed Stelmach is to give the green light for US consumption of oil sand oil, or rather the import of fuels considered among the “dirtiest” in the fuel market. In a meeting last week, President Obama decided that the Canada’s oil sands represented an important part of national security supplies for petroleum in America’s near future.

However before he was President he seemed to have a different opinion. I have no idea where your nation stands, or even you for that matter BC. I certainly hope that America desires to continue its current policies with respect to oil production from Alberta. We ship about 2 million barrels a day to you folks now(Canadian total) but by 2015 that should be up to around 4 million a day. To be honest I don't know what your rates of consumption are, but I do hope we can help you folks out.

[bush_cheney2004]

However before he was President he seemed to have a different opinion. I have no idea where your nation stands, or even you for that matter BC. I certainly hope that America desires to continue its current policies with respect to oil production from Alberta. We ship about 2 million barrels a day to you folks now(Canadian total) but by 2015 that should be up to around 4 million a day. To be honest I don't know what your rates of consumption are, but I do hope we can help you folks out.

Lucky for you, because pipeline transport and refining capacity is geared for "helping" you out more than me. Where do you think much of the investment capital came from?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Lucky for you, because pipeline transport and refining capacity is geared for "helping" you out more than me. Where do you think much of the investment capital came from?

There is no doubt a vast amount of American capital invested in the oilsands. On the other hand if you look at the numbers, the big players are both Canadian companies, they are Suncor and Syncrude.

Our problem here is our provincial governments lack of foresight. What can I say politicians have agendas, and who knows what the hell they are. By 2010 Alberta citizens will finally see some real royalties come from these companies. They were given massive tax breaks and royalty concessions for decades and those are finally over. The rate on royalties goes from 1% to 25%. Factor in increased production and you can see vast amounts of revenues. Oil at $100 yield a $25 fee per barrel, and as I have said expected production levels will go to more than 2 million barrels per day by 2012, that is $50 million a day. That is some real money, our provincial budget is a shade less than 32 billion a year. Getting 15 billion a year just from those two companies royalties is rather significant, add income tax levies and you can see copious capital.

At any rate Alberta is well placed, even though we lack any real manufacturing capacity. For years citizens have been screaming to have Alberta increase its refining capacity, now this is beginning to happen. There are a lot of plans floating around over here even in the darkest hour for the oil patch. Part of the reason is that Saskatchewan is now turning over soil in their own oilsands efforts. Evern conservative estimates bring western Canadian production of oil to more than 5 million barrels a day within the next decade as production ramps up. This of course does not include off shore oil production now being bumped up on the east coast.

BC, I don't know if you are aware of the Alaskan Permanent Fund of our own Alberta Heritage Trust Fund, but both were designed by Social Credit and are interesting little tools for public investment. In Alberta there is a movement to have the AHTF heavily fueled by future oil and gas royalties. This will provide an opportunity, whether realized or not, for the citizens of Alberta.

[bush_cheney2004]

....BC, I don't know if you are aware of the Alaskan Permanent Fund of our own Alberta Heritage Trust Fund, but both were designed by Social Credit and are interesting little tools for public investment. In Alberta there is a movement to have the AHTF heavily fueled by future oil and gas royalties. This will provide an opportunity, whether realized or not, for the citizens of Alberta.

That's great, but all I know is that Alberta is only one of many suppliers to an America that has purposely diversified sources. The arrangement is for mutual benefit, as Alberta would not be where it is today without American investment, and most importantly, easy access to American refining and distribution to the largest market in the world.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

That's great, but all I know is that Alberta is only one of many suppliers to an America that has purposely diversified sources. The arrangement is for mutual benefit, as Alberta would not be where it is today without American investment, and most importantly, easy access to American refining and distribution to the largest market in the world.

That is true, however it is our own best interest to refine these products here in Alberta. Value added production is where the wealth is generated. We have the resources and the ability to refine them so it is an economic given as a logical extension of production right here.

[enlightment]

That is true, however it is our own best interest to refine these products here in Alberta. Value added production is where the wealth is generated. We have the resources and the ability to refine them so it is an economic given as a logical extension of production right here.

--------

If you want to know the REAL answer to whether central banks are good or not , look into U.S. politics :

The best way to know U.S. politics is to view " Obama Deception Full Length " on youtube.com

Also download the free Obama Deception Guide :

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13404412/The-Obama-Deception-Guide

There is no Left or Right in US politics , they are only acting in front of the camera. When off camera, the Left and the Right go to parties and dinner...etc.

The only people controlling the White House is the International Bankers ( central banks ) and the US Presidency is only a puppet post.

For the explanation of all these wars in the past 100 years, please check out the link below and then read all the links of that site. One thing for sure, we have been sidetracked to petty issues while something deadly serious, threatening to Mankind is being secretly engineered.

http://nworesistance.com/war-and-conflict-explained.html

[kuzadd]

very interesting article on central banks

Global Power and Global Government: Evolution and Revolution of the Central Banking System.

"In 1694, the Bank of England was formed as a private central bank, which would issue the currency of the nation, lending it to the government and industry at interest, which would be paid back to the Bank of England’s shareholders, made up of these private banking dynasties.[3] The 16th to the 19th centuries was the period in which both the nation-state and capitalism emerged, soon followed by central banking in the late 1600s."

quite lengthy.possibly relevant

oh and as for the question, good or bad, I lean towards bad and unnecessary.

and one sentence in this article summarizes it quite nicely

If nations have the ability to create and issue a currency through a Treasury department or even on a more regional or local level, why centralize and monopolize creation of a currency to a central bank?

why?

Edited July 24, 2009 by kuzadd

[M.Dancer]

How many countries actually have private central banks?

Can't think of one. There is a urban legend which stems from popular confusion about the banks corproate governance that they are a private consortium, but they are not. In the US and Canada they are in fact, owned by the state.

[Pliny]

Can't think of one. There is a urban legend which stems from popular confusion about the banks corproate governance that they are a private consortium, but they are not. In the US and Canada they are in fact, owned by the state.

You'll have to look a little more deeply into ownership. The State does not own the Federal Reserve, and the Minister of Finance holds the sole share of the Bank of Canada in trust - who owns that share is someone other than the the Government of Canada.

[Pliny]

very interesting article on central banks

Global Power and Global Government: Evolution and Revolution of the Central Banking System.

"In 1694, the Bank of England was formed as a private central bank, which would issue the currency of the nation, lending it to the government and industry at interest, which would be paid back to the Bank of England’s shareholders, made up of these private banking dynasties.[3] The 16th to the 19th centuries was the period in which both the nation-state and capitalism emerged, soon followed by central banking in the late 1600s."

quite lengthy.possibly relevant

oh and as for the question, good or bad, I lean towards bad and unnecessary.

and one sentence in this article summarizes it quite nicely

why?

The Banking industry benefits mostly from the existence of a central bank. Because of the practice of fractional reserve banking, and banks issuing notes which were used as currency, they often got into trouble when there was a run on their banks. The industry did not want to get rid of fractional reserve banking because that is how they made their money not warehousing gold and silver for depositors. If you understand fractional reserve banking you will understand why a central bank is preferred by bankers. The central bank generally becomes the bank of the federal government and finances government borrowing. Both government and the banks benefit. The public is supposed to benefit by the elimination of bank runs and subsequent failures.

It actually gave government a source of limitless borrowing especially after moving off the gold standard and a strictly fiat currency. A central bank is not entirely a bad concept but the banking practices which it holds onto as its source of revenue is not sustainable in the long run because of the susceptibility of abuse.

[kuzadd]

The Banking industry benefits mostly from the existence of a central bank. Because of the practice of fractional reserve banking, and banks issuing notes which were used as currency, they often got into trouble when there was a run on their banks. The industry did not want to get rid of fractional reserve banking because that is how they made their money not warehousing gold and silver for depositors. If you understand fractional reserve banking you will understand why a central bank is preferred by bankers. The central bank generally becomes the bank of the federal government and finances government borrowing. Both government and the banks benefit. The public is supposed to benefit by the elimination of bank runs and subsequent failures.

It actually gave government a source of limitless borrowing especially after moving off the gold standard and a strictly fiat currency. A central bank is not entirely a bad concept but the banking practices which it holds onto as its source of revenue is not sustainable in the long run because of the susceptibility of abuse.

I understand fractional reserve banking.

Central banks are preferable to bankers that much is obvious.

But the quote I picked from the article made it clear a central bank is unnecessary when a country has it's own treasury that can issue it's own money. Making the central bank nothing more then a drag on the country.

If nations have the ability to create and issue a currency through a Treasury department or even on a more regional or local level, why centralize and monopolize creation of a currency to a central bank?

[Pliny]

I understand fractional reserve banking.

Central banks are preferable to bankers that much is obvious.

But the quote I picked from the article made it clear a central bank is unnecessary when a country has it's own treasury that can issue it's own money. Making the central bank nothing more then a drag on the country.

Are you perhaps forgetting the role of the central bank in relation to commercial banking? If there is no central bank should the commercial banks issue their own currency or should they use the government currency? The government cannot regulate the banking industry without it being entirely an arm of government if it should print the currency.

Why if the US Treasury could print it's own currency, and can still Constitutionally do so, did it enact the Federal Reserve Act?

The US treasury printed it's own currency up until the late 50's along with what was printed by the Federal Reserve. John Kennedy had a US treasury run of currency in the planning before his assassination. Some conspiracists believe this is the reason he was assassinated.

[kuzadd]

Are you perhaps forgetting the role of the central bank in relation to commercial banking? If there is no central bank should the commercial banks issue their own currency or should they use the government currency? The government cannot regulate the banking industry without it being entirely an arm of government if it should print the currency.

Why if the US Treasury could print it's own currency, and can still Constitutionally do so, did it enact the Federal Reserve Act?

The US treasury printed it's own currency up until the late 50's along with what was printed by the Federal Reserve. John Kennedy had a US treasury run of currency in the planning before his assassination. Some conspiracists believe this is the reason he was assassinated.

If there is no central bank should the commercial banks issue their own currency or should they use the government currency?

the bank already does issue it's own 'currency' representative of government currency.

Why enact the federal reserve act???

Lobbying? Political interests? Plain old chicanery? Bribes?

Mercantilists such as Alexander Hamilton, who was the first Treasury Secretary, were in favour of such a bank, and his advice won over George Washington, much to the dismay of Thomas Jefferson, who was a strong opponent to central banking. However, “[Alexander] Hamilton, believing that government must ally itself with the richest elements of society to make itself strong, proposed to Congress a series of laws, which it enacted, expressing this philosophy,” and that, “A Bank of the United States was set up as a partnership between the government and certain banking interests,”[20] which lasted until the charter expired in 1811.

Again, during the tenure of Andrew Jackson (1829-1837), the primary political struggle was with the entrenched financial interests both domestic and from abroad (namely Western Europe), on the issue of creating a central bank of the US. Andrew Jackson stood in firm opposition to such a bank, saying that, “the bank threatened the emerging order, hoarding too much economic power in too few hands,” and referred to it as “The Monster.”[21] Congress passed the bill allowing for the creation of a Second Bank of the United States, however, Andrew Jackson vetoed the bill, much to the dismay of the banking interests.

mercantilism?

[kuzadd]

central banks good or bad?

ANDREW JACKSON

"If congress has the right under the Constitution to issue paper money, it was given them to use themselves, not to be delegated to individuals or corporations.

"The bold efforts that the present bank has made to control the government and the distress it has wantonly caused, are but premonitions of the fate which awaits the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it...If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system there would be a revolution before morning."

like I said, bad.

[Malaclypse the Younger]

Banks don't print money. Mints print money.

[kuzadd]

Banks don't print money. Mints print money.

au contraire banks create 'money' through the creation of debt, extended to debtors.

mortgages, credit lines, loans.